Day 5 and the starter really isn't starting
I started my starter on Monday, 50/50 rye flour and water. Left it 2 days (I'm following The Bread Bible which has you leave it alone for the first 2 days). Threw half away and mixed in 50/50 flour/water and within a few hours it has bubbled up to about 2x its size, then collapsed again. Good, thought I, it's working.
Next day I threw away half and mixed in another 50/50 flour and water and all it did the whole day was make a few frothy bubbles, didn't rise up, just sat there.
Today I did the same, threw half, fed it 50/50 and have been watching it do nothing much. It's not risen up, not really made more than a few little bubbles (looks rather like slightly frothed milk).
My expectation at this point was to have a culture which would be active after feeding, double or even triple and show some life, although not ready for baking yet. The last real activity I saw out of it was 2 days ago, when it domed before it fell. Since then, it shows very little interest.
I'm in Singapore, so it's plenty warm, the thing gets a good 70-80F to live in.
Did I kill it, should I start over, or keep feeding it every 12 or 24 hours to try and coax whatever was there a few days ago back to life?
Was leuconostoc activity. This is bad bacteria and will smell kinda funny. Many think they've cracked it at this stage and then all goes quiet so they think it's failed. But rest assured this is normal. It's at this "quiet" stage when most give up.
Persevere and keep up with your feeding schedule. Give it a stir every now and again too.
Give it a few more days and see what happens.
not too terribly concerned about it. A few Q's:
That should take all of 3 minutes.... :)
Thanks for the quick reply.
1. Rye flour - no - the method I've been following switches to bread flour on day 3.
2. I'll turn the aircon down a bit
3. 60 grams + 60 grams exactly using a scale, this is supposed to be a 100% hydration starter so you pull out 120g a day and add back 120g
4. (goes to look) Pretty runny - like a very thick batter. When I tip the jar it levels itself out in a few seconds.
5. Bottled water, nothing fancy but should have no chlorine in it.
6. Yes with saran wrap at this point
7. Doesn't smell of very much - a very faint citrus tang layered over a wet flour smell. Not unpleasant to sniff at all.
Mini will help you create a starter.
and thanks for the answers.
I think the switch from rye to wheat was the big quieting factor but not to worry. You are getting there. Thick batter sounds right. Water -> "check." Plasti-crap -> "check." Faint citrus is fine, "wet flour smell" tells me you just fed it. Note the smells when you lift the plastic and when it's been standing 24 hrs. Pleasant enough -> "check." Stir it when you get nervous about it and think you need to do something. If you forget a feeding don't sweat it. (It often does it some good!)
Just be patient and try not to rush it. :) "Abe" will be back esp. if I go wandering in the Alps or off dancing to a Ball in the weekend but the starter seems on track.
Enjoy your "sound of music"esque walk in the Alps or your waltz :)
Mini is the expert here but i'll help wherever I can.
Why don't you switch back to whole rye? Rye works well no need to scrap it. You've got the jist of it with the whole feeding schedule which is pretty straight forward from here onwards "discard 2/3rds, feed 1:1, wait 24 hours, repeat till starter is ready". There's no need to do bit of this flour, bit of another etc.
I also don't know everything and will be the first to admit it, sometimes. :) I also seem to forgetting a lot these days. Always something new to learn and a new way of doing things.
the confirmation that it's on-track is very useful. I shall soldier on and report back next week. For now I'll just go give it a stir and a few warm (76F) words of encouragement.
and now it doesn't smell bad must be a good sign. If things are going south then the smell would just get worse and mould would grow. I think you're doing fine. Carry on and keep us informed.
I don't know if I should post here or start another thread. Having a minor (?) starter issue. Was emailing with AbeNW11, who's been very supportive and helpful after my ala Forkish ww starter failed.
So began again w rye flour (tuesday evening) and fed (to be honest) once a day for 1 day then every 12 hours for 2 days. well, the starter has nice small holes which I can see only at bottom of jar or from sides, doesn't bubble up or rise and has a crisp fresh acid smell. I have yet to get this kind of bubble or texture: http://tartine-bread.blogspot.com/2011/08/sourdough-starter-demystified.html. But I can see small holes on the sides and bottom. t is still thick paste w holes. My house is chilly so I lock it in our closest which is warmest place in house/
Following Mini's advice above that sometimes NOT feeding can be best, I just stirred it and will wait (I fed it at 8 pm last night). I know I should've kept to either an every day schedule or every 12 hours. Not too embarrassed to admit my impatience.
Thanks for help.
Check your email sent you something.
We started Tuesday evening and it's only Friday. That's the jist of it :)
I'll write more soon. Don't feed it for now, give it a stir and we'll discuss...
You're doing fine.
Abe, emailed you back and thank you.
Jim, we live with a Newfoundland dog. They have a double coat. It's unbearable to her if I keep the house too warm. I am keeping the temp up enough so the closet is in the low 70's. If this doesn't take off with Abe's suggestions I'll try the microwave stuff. In closed up areas it is getting warm enough, though just.
Thanks again
hester
Got one of those neck collar barrels? You know for happy rescues in the snow! Put your starter in there and hang around a nice warm neck for a while. (Or tuck inside your own vest.) Wolfie might be proud to be part of the project. :)
She's only 8 months and would manage to get it off her neck to consume it. lol
Thanks
A quick comment about temperature. Sourdough starters contain both yeasts and lactic acid bacteria (LABs). Yeasts prefer slightly lower temperatures than LABs. If your culture is not growing at temps below 70°F, perhaps you have not yet successfully captured wild yeasts. The initial burst you saw might have meant you captured good old baker's yeast already present in your kitchen. Then as it acidified the baker's yeast would be suppressed. But I like Abe's Leuconostoc hypothesis. Brilliant! That's why I love this forum!
Mini and Abe are giving you great advice. Be patient and don't rush to remove the rye flour. A couple years running and I still routinely feed my starter with 5-10% whole rye, as this provides a variety of nutrients including pentosans, which are a preferred carbon source for sourdough LABs.
I also found success using seltzer water when I was first starting my sourdough culture. I suspect this works by purging the culture of oxygen to prevent aerobic microbes from out competing the bugs you want. Many LABs also need some external CO2 when the culture is immature and not producing enough on its own.
my burst of activity wasn't accompanied by any smell, not that I recall, so perhaps it was bakers yeast, there certainly is a lot of baking goes on in this house.
Results haven't been encouraging, the last two feedings have produced nothing, not a single bubble, no activity at all. The faint tang of citrus has gone, I guess diluted away, and the mix smelled of wet flour when I came to feed it two hours ago, which rather feels like nothing had been fed upon from the day before.
I shall watch it tonight before going to bed and see if it does anything whatsoever, feed it one more time tomorrow, but if it hasn't even produced a solitary bubble by then, I think it's a goner and I'll start over. Weekly shop tomorrow, I'll get some more rye flour and stay with it longer.
the rye flour now that you've switched. Stick to the instructions you started with. Just when you think it's a goner it will turn and surprise you. It's the nature of the beasties. Don't ditch it unless it crawls to the bin. I think as long as the brew smells like wet flour after 24 hrs, you can skip the feeding. You can always start up another little tiny one next to it. To egg it on.
Then just put one heaping Tbs of flour into a clean container and add just enough water to cover, stir or not, swirl the water around and every day add one level spoon of flour and a little water. No discarding. One pint size deli container is enough for the whole business. :)
Started another starter today and put them side-by-side, I'll hang on with the rye flour a little longer for this one and see if the competition spurs experiment #1 to get moving. It's currently sulking in the bottom of the jar having not made a bubble for 2 days, and will be sent to bed without feeding tonight if it doesn't show some action.
May the best gloop win!
So 10 days later.
Starter #1, the original, continued to do very little for 3-4 more days and then finally started to enjoy feeding time. By Sunday last week it had managed one day to triple itself, almost, so I fed it and popped it in the fridge for a few days. It still doesn't smell of a whole lot. I got it out of the fridge this morning and a few hours later it was showing signs of life again. Good.
Starter #2, its friend, was fed on rye for another few days and showed lots of interest, then I switched it over to regular flour and it's been pretty quiet since, not as bad as #1, it does something, but still quite weak. That starter has a more acidic smell than #1, to my mind more like a sourdough starter should.
So today I fed them and left them out for a foot race to see how they compare. I suspect #1 will win the race but #2 will smell more like sourdough.
How strong do they need to be before I try using one to bake? My impression was that if a starter will triple itself within 8-12 hours of feeding it's ready to be expanded and then used for baking, less than that it's not yet strong enough. My plan (from reading lots of books) was to expand whichever I choose about 8x over 2 days but into a stiff starter which most of my recipes seem to recommend, then try using it to bake, and starting early that day expecting a long, long slow rise.
Go ahead and try them.
I would chill them when not fully risen so they have some food to last out the week. I suggest about 1/3 risen on the counter, then chill. You might also want to consider feeding slightly more flour food when the starter shows it can peak and start falling in less than 8 to 12 hours.
Rye starters will smell differently from wheat starters. A cold starter from the fridge will have a lot less aroma than one active at room temperature. A warm one even more.
The first time you convert to a stiff starter, let it take its time, due to the thickness and the overwhelming amount of food, there will be a long lag time before you see any action. Roll the firm starter into flour to coat so you can see it crack as it expands. Esp. the rye. You might want to put them in shallow soup bowls and cover with a glass custard dish to watch.
Thanks very much to MiniOven and Abe and the rest, I've now baked with my sourdough starter 4 times and every time I got bread, and it was nice bread and I'm now starting to learn how to control the rise times, the sourness and how my particular starter likes to be handled.
The first loaf I made was a rye sourdough, it was slow, I started early morning and it was only ready for baking late afternoon, the starter was still a little young then.
The next time out I pulled the starter out of the fridge and fed it twice, 8 hours apart. I had quite a lot to bake that day (I bake for a bread club occasionally so I can easily use quite a lot of starter which is wonderful). I fed at 4pm, and again at midnight and started baking in the morning when the starter was rife with activity, the bread shot up as if it had commercial yeast in it, but wasn't quite as sour, but it was lovely.
I've also made one version with a single feeding out of the fridge, that was a little slow. Finally, on a whim, when feeding the starter one morning right from the fridge and just about to toss out 1/2, fed it instead and made pizza that day after it only had a few hours to become active. The dough was not quick to rise but for a starter which was cold at 7am and had been in the fridge for 5 days, it did a pretty good job.
I have lots of things to try still. I think my starter prefers two feedings out of the fridge if I want it to be really active, can't blame it really, and I'm toying with a few ideas to get that done but still push the baking a little later in the day. This is where the fun begins.
Thanks for all the help and encouragement. I'm not yet making *great* sourdough, but I'm making sourdough, and it's rising and we're enjoying eating it.