January 13, 2015 - 10:36pm
In the land of the blind...
The one-eyed is king, as the saying goes.
My neighbour, who is Germana, has grown so fond of the SD loaves I send her way that she wants to start baking her own, especially since our local Costco stopped selling her favourite Bayerisches Roggenbrot recently. I've made her a starter and want to walk her a simple rye/wholewheat batard to start off as she's bought rye and stoneground whole wheat flour from a local mill. Can someone please suggest a formula for me? I'm a bit spoilt for choice as I have 'Bread' and the Laurel book as well as Tartine and Forkish! Yip, I got carried away.
Share
This looks nice...
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/rye-ww-sourdough/
I agree, it looks nice and demonstrates the steps involved in SD baking well
I like Mike Avery's : http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=newbohemianrye
Ford
I've read about the Detmolder process a few times and will try this formula on the weekend
What is it about baking a loaf of rye that I am missing?
My neighbour and I opted for a formula from a German cookbook she got me on a recent trip to her homeland.
SD sponge:
350g rye flour, 300g water at 30º, 8g starter matured overnight until active
Dough: 680g sourdough sponge, 300g AP, 420g rye flour, 19g salt and 340g water.
Mix dough at lowest speed for 15 minutes and 3 minutes at higher speed (no mention of desired development)
Rest dough for 40 minutes
Preshape into two loaves
Rest for 30 minutes
Shape into batards/boules
Bake at 230º with steam for 10 minutes, then reduce to 215º and bake for another 30 minutes.
I suspect the dough was overproofed as it spread in a puddle.
After licking my wounds and doing a lot of reading, I tried Hamelman's 66% rye with the same 'puddle' effect.
Is that the extent of your starter preparation? It generally takes at least 7 days for a starter to become mature.
starter already.
350g rye flour, 300g water at 30º, 8g starter, matured overnight until active
I think ratio of starter to flour is far too low, it's also a single build. Thinking the problem will be that it's sluggish.
Not too sure about the hydration of final dough either.
SD sponge:
350g rye flour + 300g water at 30º + 8g starter, matured overnight until active
[as above: I think this ratio will take far longer than over night]
Dough: 680g sourdough sponge, 300g AP, 420g rye flour, 19g salt and 340g water.
So we have 680g of 86% hydration sponge of rye flour. That's fine as long as it IS matured at this stage.
Then you put in 300g AP + 420g rye + 340g water... What!? That's 47% hydration and you've hot over half rye. Rye works well with 90% hydration. A normal dough of AP 60-65% hydration. Here you have AP + Rye @ 47% hydration.
Now let's work out the hydration of the whole dough...
Total Flour = 1074g
Total Water = 644g
= 60% hydration
That would be acceptable for an all white bread. But if you include all that rye which is over half then way!!! too low.
________________________________________
Your total Rye = 770g. Now at 90% hydration that should give you 693g water.
Total AP = 300g. Not a good hydration would be 65% which gives you 195g.
So total water in the recipe should be 888g (but we have 300g from the sponge so take that away) = 588g
I believe you'll have more success with this.
___________________________________________________________________________
SD sponge:
350g rye flour + 300g water at 30º + 8g starter, matured overnight until active
[Wait till it DOES mature]
Dough: 680g sourdough sponge, 300g AP, 420g rye flour, 19g salt and 588g water.
100% rye loaves are never shaped into a banneton at 90% hydration.
Rye works best at this hydration but makes a thick cake batter which you can bake in loaf tins.
But here you have a mix. I've never done a mix at this level before so don't know what type of dough it'll produce. But at such high percentage of rye i'm very sure you need to increase the hydration to get it off the ground.
You'll have to be the judge when you make the dough. Perhaps the AP will make it more manageable.
Asks in the dough for 680g starter but there is only 8g inoculation, should be 30g to even add up. That's doable only one to 11, starter to flour ratios.
I get total dough hydration of 60% hydration, a little on the dry side. If the water is upped to 65% that would be a total water weight of 700g, just add 60g more into the dough. It can still be too stiff so don't be afraid to have 50 to 100g of water waiting on the side to make 70 to 75% hydration.
I don't think the mixer should be beating the hell and tarnation out of the dough. Especially with a high amount of delicate pre-fermented rye. The higher the % of rye, the less it should be aggressively mixed. Mix only until moistened.
Ok, try this, first separate the AP wheat along with 200g of the water and beat it to develop gluten for 15 min. then stir in the rest of the water, starter, salt and rye flour and finish with light kneading. The rest of the instructions look fine to me.
The last shape "Shape into batards/boules" is just a little gentle nudging and docking, nothing too active.
The spreading could just have easily been caused from the scoring, right down the middle tends to thin out the middle, just like it baked out. Try more shallow "ribbed" cuts or no cuts at all. Or just dock the loaf with a toothpick. I think the loaf looks pretty good myself.
AbeNW11: I didn't express myself clearly. The formula calls for inoculating a mix 350g rye flour and 300g water with 8g of mature starter overnight.
The book I used is called Mein Brot Rezept ohne Kompromisse by Peter Kapp. I translated the recipe verbatim (no infringment of any copyright intended) The recipe is for a Bauernbrot.
So I soldier on. Neither my 75-year old neighbour (who loves German rye bread more than most other breads) nor I are going to give up yet. Thanks again for all your help, everyone.
I know what you meant. You certainly didn't mean creating a starter out of the sponge :)
That was never my issue. It did seem a bit on the dry side your recipe. Mini has pointed out a critical mistake.
Best of luck.
it doesn't add up. 350g rye + 300g water + 8g starter = 658g not the 680g starter stated in the dough recipe. You wanted to SEE the problem... there it is. The starter with 8g is a one to 44 feeding ratio.
Anyway... Was looking as the videos of Peter Kapp. His doughs tend to be on the wetter side. Here is one link to his bakery: (get ready for ink fougasse with lovely tomatoes)
http://www.baeckerei-kapp.de/brotkollektion/fougasse-amore-sepia.html