Sourdough super dense.
Hi friends!
I acquired a very old, very yummy sourdough-type starter from my sister. She mentioned its not true sourdough, but there's no other name for it that I am aware of. I'll paste the recipe she passed along below. I store the starter in the fridge and feed / make loaves every 9-13 days. Every time I make it, the bread seems a little different - more dense I suppose. It doesn't appear to be rising as much anymore. I feared the coldness of my kitchen may be an issue, so the last time I put in my oven with the light on to rise, and it rose better but is still denser than previously. Also, when I separated the dough into 3 loaves this last time, the dough seemed... too rigid and not sticky enough, almost like it was half baked. I'll put in notes as to what I use specifically.
Recipe:
Feed Starter:
1/2 C. sugar
3 Tbsp. potato flakes (Idahoan)
1 C. bread flour (King Arthur... used White Lily one time.. is that bad?)
1 C. hot water (My water is moderately hard, if that matters)
Pull the starter out of the fridge and mix well to incorporate (there is usually a thick layer on top of a liquid layer). Set aside. In a separate bowl, mix the above ingredients. Add original starter to this. Let this sit out at room temperature for 10-12 hours.
Dough:
6 C. bread flour
1 Tbsp. salt
1/2 C. sugar
1/2 C. oil (Sunflower, per my sister's preference)
1 3/4 C. hot water
1 C. starter
Mix the above ingredients together. Form a large dough ball and put into a lightly oiled bowl, rolling dough ball around to coat in oil. Cover bowl with a tea towel and leave at room temperature for 10-12 hours (dough should atleast double).
*Lightly cover the starter and put back in fridge.
Bread:
Divide the large dough ball into 3 loaves (or make rolls, buns, etc), and put into greased bread pans (standard size). Cover with tea towel and allow to raise 10-12 hours.
Bake loaves at 350* for 25-30 min. When the loaves come out, we rub butter all over the tops of the loaves. I *think* this is for a softer crust.
It doesn`t sound as if you`ve fed it enough for it to mature. One feeding and 10-12 hour is not enough time for recovery and development of an active yeast culture. How long has it been in the frig? Did it actually double in the 10-12 hours?
Noob question here... but how do you know if it's literally doubled? I just go by if it makes me go, "wow, that grew alot in half a day". It's usually in the fridge for about 11 days before I feed it. My sis indicated she makes bread/rolls, etc no sooner than 5 days and no longer than 14 days without feeding.
You can place it in a plastic container and mark it and actually see how high it raise.
Great idea. Really great idea, so simple.
especially with all that sugar. If it is, what you have is a sponge made with commercial yeast, not a sourdough. It would not surprise me if the yeast was gradually dying off, hence the lessened leavening effect you've seen.
Paul
So how do I revive the yeast at this point?
It could have been originally made with yeast. But that would have been 20+ years ago... this is a really old starter that my sister's mother in law has had going for a very long time.
Perhaps 1/4 teaspoon of dry yeast the next time you feed it.
Or, split off part of the "starter" and spike that part with the dry yeast, in case you want to maintain your original supply as a backup that hasn't been messed with.
Paul
I'm allergic to baker's yeast, thus the sourdough baking. But I did find other ways to revive the existing yeast. Thanks for the help. I'll update next time I make bread.
Sounds to me like you should let the starter sit out on the counter top to mature and then use and feed it without chilling it between uses. Perhaps at a reduced amount. That might bring it back into swing.
How much starter is left over from baking when you feed it?
Oh a bunch is left. Actually for a while I didn't realize... I needed to throw some away. So now I do that and keep about a mason jar size amount each time.
Mine are quart size. If you're keeping more starter than what you are mixing up fresh to feed it, then you are underfeeding the starter. Which makes sense that you are loosing rising power. The starter just can't make it to 11 days.
Try this, when the starter you have right now seems to have peaked in activity (highest rise after feeding and long before it separates and floats) take out one (stirred down) cup of the starter to feed. (Use the rest for making bread.) After feeding, mark the level and let it rise on the kitchen counter, don't chill. Mark again after the starter has reached maximum height and note how long and at what temperature it took to get there. Stir down, take out a cup to feed again and from the rest make bread.
When the cup of starter gets fed, let it rise about 1/3 and tuck into the refrigerator. Then use it in about 11 days. See if the starter has improved. :)
I read an article the other day by Teresa Greenway from Northwest Sourdough that said... When you leave your starter in the refrigerator to long that the leavening will survive but the taste will go away. Her suggestion was to start over... Build a brand new starter. Flour and water on the counter. She had a few options of adding some fruit juice but said she uses just flour and water. This myth about 200 year old starter is better than new starters is just that... A myth! All starters take on the elements that are around them.It's a living eating breathing organism.
My suggestion to you is to start a new culture. Weigh your flour and water, don't measure it. Depending on your climate you will have a nice new starter in a few weeks.
I find just the opposite, yeast deteriorates, population and activity drop off and bacteria numbers build. A starter that has spent a long time in the fridge will have a low pH but either sleeping or dead yeast and be lopsided in the direction of bacteria. On the average, It takes about 3 days of feeding without discarding to activate yeasts much like starting a new starter except the pH is already low and the right sort of bacteria should be available to stimulate yeast cell growth. The trick it to follow the actions of the starter yeast and not the clock.
My guess is that the starter was in a specific pattern of feeding and maintenance when she received it. In the process of getting it, it had warmed up and fermented more aggressively before the routine chilling to slow down the fermentation. This threw off the expected timing of the starter. Therefore it ran out of food sooner than it's maintained counterpart at a friend's house. This and lack of recognizing when to bake with the starter has led to it's now yeast depleted condition. Too much starving of the yeast between feeding has lowered the yeast activity. So now to feed it more often and raise yeast numbers is the goal. Hopefully there hasn't been too drastic a change in the starter and it will bounce back into shape.
I can imagine that this happened to many who have received such a starter. Just a few hours out of the fridge is enough to make the starter warm up and ferment fast enough to be used days earlier than the instructions. This isn't my kind of starter, I gag at the amount of sugar, but it is a starter none the less and deserves understanding.
Starting a new culture isn't reality. All the poster has to do is get another cup of the starter from her sister ...and watch it more carefully. She's already learned a lot about it. It can also be that each refrigerator has a slightly different temperature too. Important is to recognise when the starter is ready to use and feed it before it gets too famished.
Mini
Just to update you guys!
Mini Oven, you hit the nail on the head, the starter did indeed warm up on a long car ride - not only that, I unknowingly had it sealed tight and left it like that overnight, so not only did it use up too much energy or whatever, it had no escape for the released... fumes... that was back in late November.
Anyways, I took a combination of all the above advice and thoughts and I think its a combo of 1) initial state of starter... 2) not discarding starter as I went (I feel like I'm killing an animal when I throw some away, lol)... 3) super cold kitchen at times... 4) too much flour from not weighing and not really understanding what the consistency is supposed to be, of the dough... 5) Honestly, I hardly kneaded it the first time or two.... I didn't know... *blush*.
THE GREAT NEWS:
I revived my starter! I brought it down to a reasonable amount and fed it... let it sit and feed and be happy for a day, in the naturally warm gas oven. Discarded some, re-fed it, and by that evening it was so bubbly and alive that I started a batch of dough. The bread was PERFECT. Three large, airy loaves, it was SO airy that I thought the crust was separating before I baked it, but it all came together.
We also made a dang good pizza crust with the discarded starter.
I think I might take my starter out of the fridge and feed it/let it warm up once a week. I'm up to about every 2 weeks baking now.
Thanks so much!
discard pizza recipe while it's fresh in your mind. I'm helping someone with their starter and he is also collecting discards as he ups the yeast population. Think teenager. :)
Mini
I used the below recipe from "whatscookingamerica.net". There are some out there with more ingredients, I was just looking for simple. We did end up brushing the dough with garlicy olive oil, didn't add too much flavor though... garlic butter next time. :) I saw another great idea of sprinkling corn meal under the dough to give it some texture.
Sourdough Pizza Dough Recipe
Yield: 1 large pizza
Prep time: 15 min
Cook time: 20 min
Ingredients:
1 1/2 cups sourdough starter, room temperature*
1 tablespoon olive oil
1 teaspoon coarse salt
1 1/2 cups bread flour (plus a little more or less to adjust consistency)**
* If you don't presently have a sourdough starter, either make your own sourdough starter or purchase Packaged Sourdough Starter Mix by mail-order.
** The thickness of your sourdough starter can determine how much water or additional flour needs to be used. If you think the dough is too moist, add additional flour (a tablespoon at a time). The same is true if the dough is looking dry and gnarly. Add warm water (a tablespoon at a time). NOTE: I usually have to add water as I have a fairly thick starter.
Preparation:
Remove starter from refrigerator and let sit at room temperature for 2 hours.
Preheat the Pizza Stone or tiles to 450 degrees F. for 30 minutes.
In a mixing bowl of your Stand Mixer, place sourdough starter, olive oil, salt, and bread flour. Fit the mixer with a dough hook and mix the dough on medium speed for approximately 5 minutes until you have a soft dough. If the dough is too dry, add some water. Once dough is kneaded, cover and let rest for 30 minutes.
NOTE: Dough may be refrigerated at this point and stored until ready to use. To store each batch of dough, spray a plastic bag with nonstick spray and place the dough in it. Store no longer than 7 to 10 days, or if frozen for up to 2 months. If refrigerated or frozen prior to use, allow the portions to come to room temperature before they are rolled out.
Using parchment paper cut the size of the pizza you want, sprinkle with flour.
Knead dough over the flour until soft, supple, and no longer sticky (adding additional flour as needed). Sprinkle the top of the dough with additional flour; roll and stretch the dough into a circle over the parchment paper. If your dough is very elastic and wants to spring back, let it rest for a few minutes, and then try rolling it out again.
Place the dough on the prepared Pizza Peel.
Adding Pizza Ingredients:
Brush the dough with some olive oil and layer your favorite pizza ingredients (toppings).
Bake for approximately 10 to 15 minutes or until golden brown on the bottom and the top is bubbly.
Remove your pizza from the oven and allow to cool for 5 minutes before transferring to a serving pan. This cooling down step allows the crust to stay crisp while it cools.
Once cool, using your Cutter or Pizza Wheel, cut your pizza into slices and serve.
Makes 1 large pizza or 4 individual pizzas.
Freezing Pizza Dough - How To Freeze Pizza Dough:
Once the pizza dough is prepared, form the dough into a ball the size you would use to make one (1) large pizza. If making a larger batch of dough, for the dough into balls. Optional: Lightly spray each dough ball with cooking spray or lightly wipe with olive oil (making sure all sides are lightly covered). Place each ball of dough into individual re-sealable freezer bags. Seal, squeezing out all the air from the bag. Place in the freezer until ready to use. The pizza dough may be stored in the freezer for up to 3 months.
When ready to use, remove from the freezer and place in your refrigerator 12 hours or overnight. Before baking, remove the dough from the refrigerator and bring to room temperature, let sit on the counter for approximately 30 minutes. You are now ready to stretch out your dough and prepare your pizza.
I like the proportions of discard starter to flour. This should work out wonderfully! We might toss in one teaspoon of instant yeast for insurance dissolving it in a Tablespoon or two of water.
1. I found that my starter became infinately more active when I started using filtered water. I have hard well water that must have salts, etc in it. At first, I used a Brita filter (cheap plastic pitcher from the grocery store), now I have a Big Berkley stainless gallon tank.
2. If you have chlorine in your water, you can kill your starter...but I'm sure you know about that since you are doing so well with your starter now.
3. Starter grows better with better quality food, just like animals and people. I start my leaven on unbleached all purpose flour, after its gets going, I put some back in the 'frig for the next batch, then I start feeding it whole wheat flour at that point, it takes off! Even for white bread, wh wh leaven is wonderful.
I have found that Wh wh leaven gets moldy in the frig - but AP flour leaven does not, for me, so I store AP flour leaven, but change to Wh wheat or rye.
4. A friend went to a workshop on bread yeast science & reported that ALL starters have the same type of yeast in them! I was astonished! Apparently the one yeast type is so ubiquitous that it's in San Francisco sourdough AND New York starter, AND Timbuktu starter! Who knew?
5. Feed the birds with leftover starter! I pour it in a big jar til have all I'm going to discard. I pour all the starter in a well-oiled rimmed pan & bake in the preheating (or post-heating oven). It doesn't have to be perfectly baked - slightly raw is ok. It gives off a wonderful, funky aroma! I dump it out, dice it up & watch the birds scarf it down. It's great for them - no salt (bad for birds) - just flour, water & oil and I don't feel guilty about dumping food down the drain. Maybe I'll start mixing in some peanut butter, or seeds.
Happy baking!