Adjusting from using dutch oven to corningware
I've been doing my baking in a dutch oven approx 9.5 inches in diameter using doughs with about 450-500 grams of flour. I'd like to try smaller loaves and searching revealed that some people use corningware, which I've had for many years, both the square cornflower and the round french white types.
I'm wondering what if anything I should change in order to bake in these. I see that I shouldn't preheat the dishes before plopping in the room temp dough. What about oven temp? I googled "corningware max temp" and it looks like the max is 425. I usually preheat to 450 or 475, so am curious how much difference the lower temp setting plus not preheating the dish will make. For example, should I expect less oven spring?
Anything else I should be aware of or watch for?
Bake some test loaves. I'm sure something will change.
My first trial was 300 grams of flour with the same 70% hydration that I've used most often in my dutch oven loaves. Oven temp was 425 instead of 450-475. Left the cover on for the 30 minutes, then off for 15, which is the same as for my 450-500 gm dutch oven loaves.
So, while based on just one loaf, it tentatively looks like I may not have to change very much at all to make smaller loaves in my corningware.
Why are you making the switch?
The corning dishes are less volume than my dutch oven, so I figure learning to bake in them will give me the option to make smaller loaves. As a newbie, I figure this will make it easier to practice, to try different flours and methods, etc.
Instead of going to a smaller Corningware, why tot try to bake the smaller loaves in the same Dutch Oven? My experience was the opposite as yours, I started with a small Pyrex then graduated to a much larger Dutch Oven and found that my loaves only grew half inch in diameter. The other good thing was that in the Dutch Oven produced a much taller rise that the Pyrex (which I'm guessing will be similar in performance to the Corningware). I was preheating my Pyrex to 500 degrees F so if you are not preheating, or are preheating to a much lower temperature than my guess would be that you're going to get lower rise to to milder oven spring.
When I baked less dough in the dutch oven a couple of times, the result that it spread to the width of the pot, resulting in a loaf shape that was quite a bit flatter. They were fine otherwise, but I happen to prefer less flat. Another admittedly small and personal thing is that when the loaves are the width of my dutch oven (~9 inches bottom diameter), most of the slices don't fit in my toaster unless I cut them in half. I've tried slicing herringbone-style, but again, not my preference, and I can't just store the cut loaves standing up without one cut face still being exposed.
In addition, based on a fairly quick search here and on the web, it looks like corningware is only rated for a max temp. of 425F, and also that putting room temp dough into a preheated dish risks cracking / shattering. So, in my one trial so far, the dough went into a room temp dish and then into the oven preheated to 425. Is pyrex rated for higher temp and can it stand the stress of putting dough into it after it's preheated?
If I can get the smaller dough balls to spread less, I'm certainly fine with baking them in the dutch oven. But until I learn to shape better, it seems like using a smaller diameter dish may be the easiest way to get the loaf shape and size I'm after.
worked just fine for me when I took 40 degree F touch out of the fridge and plopped it directly into a 500 degree F Pyrex. I just then put the preheated Pyrex cover on top and shoved it all into the oven. I did this for six months, baking once or twice a week until I got my hands on a Le Creuset and have since given away that Pyrex set. The Pyrex is not as tall as it looks and all my loaves had a flat spot on top where it hit the lid during the oven spring process. The loaves were completely edible but the crust was lighter than what I get now and the crust had a very smooth surface (they looked undercooked). I had to resort to slashing the loaves so they would look more like normal loaves. (I now don't even bother slashing my loaf in my Dutch Oven, I like the Forkish style loaves I'm currently producing, with natural cracks and fissures).
What I discovered was that I could bake a smaller loaf in the Dutch Oven if the hydration was not so high and if i got the dough into the oven and covered it very quickly (I'm not sure if it actually maters or is my imagination) but those loaves did not spread out to the edges of the oven. My very high hydration loaves did ooze to the edges of the Dutch Oven before I could get the cover o, so I really do understand your pain.
When I wanted to experiment with Dutch Ovens I went to the Goodwill auction web site (after I came to from the feinting spell caused by seeing the price tag on the Le Creuset and Staubb Dutch Ovens) and I bid on a used "2 in 1 Le Creuset Pan" which is the counterpart to the Lodge combo cooker but is fully enameled of course. It has the small frying pan that is the cover and the pot itself is only 2 1/2 quart so its narrower than the Pyrex I had been using previously. It cost me $50 for the Le Creuset plus shipping (as tiny as it is, its heavy so it cost more to ship than to pay for the oven itself).
Im not very good at shaping yet, so its possible that with expert guidance you could shape the loaves well enough to have enough surface tension to hold its shape long enough in a larger dutch oven to not spread al the way out. Someone more experienced than me will have to help you with that.
I also noticed that I was dropping the dough into the 500 degree Dutch Oven because my fingers just refused to get anywhere near the hot walls, so one day I put my dough into a cake pan and then poured/scraped it gently into the Dutch Oven and I got much better rise out of it. I don't know if this is legit, its just one of my many experiments.
One time I got this crazy idea to allow the dough to stand uncovered for a few hours so it would develop a crust, I then used two large metal spatulas to lift it and place it into the Dutch Oven, it actually worked, producing a loaf with a much smaller diameter but it did not have a very tall rise and was even tougher to cut through the crust than usual.
I've attached a picture so you can see what my Pyrex boule looks like (yes I overdosed it with flour because I was worried about sticking, I don't do that anymore), its easy to see how the top is flattened, and it did not seem to be a big deal until I got almost another inch of rise out of it in the taller Dutch Oven.
I've only tried one loaf so far in the corning dish, and it was one I hadn't baked before (33% dark rye), so comparing with the ones I've baked in the dutch oven is kind of apples to oranges. I was happy with the loaf, but can't say if there would have been more oven spring, a different crust or crumb in the dutch oven.
It didn't happen, but I did think about the possibility that the bread might hit the lid of the corning dish. The one I'm using is French white about 6 inches inside diameter and 3 inches high to the rim plus a little more above since the lid is slightly domed. If I get loaves hitting the lid, my first thought is simply to mix smaller amounts of dough.
Fwiw, I'm a bit surprised to see how much your enameled dutch oven cost you. Here in Canada, I see 2.5 to 3 quart ones (not Le Crueset) advertised for $40 to $50 every few weeks. Right now, for example, there's a 3-quart Cuisinart one on sale for $40 at a major national retail chain. I can even choose among 4 colors.
because its very well made. You get what you pay for. Le Creuset is still made in France to very high standards. We know the standards are high because they don't fail. The new enabled cast iron products yo see from Lodge, Cuisinart, Heuck, Tramotina, Guy Fieri, Martha Stewart, etc., just do not have the reputation of reliability that Le Creuset, Staub and other premium manufacturers have.
The nonpremium brands have a reputation for chipping or cracking, something I just don't want to happen to my family's bread. I bake at 500 degrees F, so maybe the cheaper brands just can't take higher temperatures, but could work reliably at 350 degrees or less. Thats not the kind of baking that I want to do so I went to the tool that does the job the way I want it to with the reliability that I expect.
I recently sent my 35 year old Le Creuset 2-in-1 pan to Le Creuset for inspection. It had seen untold thousands of stews where a metal spoon swirled around endlessly slowly scratching the interior. I now an learning to be using the French Oven method and I did not want to risk the loaves sticking inside a 500 degree pot. Le Creuset looked at them (I sent in both pieces) and said that they were happy to replace it for free, so I'm now the proud owner of a brand new Le Creuset, and that is the kind of support and service that I want my money to buy me.
Of course you its not really necessary to use an enameled Dutch/French Oven, you can use plain cast iron and from what I've read it will work just as well with only a microscopically increased chance of sticking inside the oven.
I've only had one loaf stick inside my Pyrex, back when I was still using it, and I've never had one stick to my Le Creuset so its really not much of a difference.
I think that the Goodwill online auction is a good place to buy a used Le Creuset (I did it once and am very happy and got it very inexpensively) if someone wants to try one inexpensively. If the pictures are of a good quality (they often aren't) then it could be worth it to pay the shipping charge (my shipping charge was as expensive as the french oven itself so I was very happy at how inexpensively I got it for).
If I could not have done the Le Creuset I would still be baking bread in my Pyrex, we would still be eating it and I'm sure that we would still be enjoying it.
I've baked no knead artisan bread in variety of containers: Lodge 2 qt and Lodge 5 qt cast iron Dutch oven, USA Baguette pan, and old style CorningWare.
CorningWare and lid OLD style can tolerate 450 - 500 and higher degrees F - see nice write up in Wikipedia on the difference between the original CorningWare created in the 1950 thru early 1990s and the later CorningWare - when company was bought out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CorningWare
I do not preheat the CorningWare (preheating is not needed) just bring the oven to temp. 450 to 475 and pop in the CorningWare (lid on) and dough. I do the second proof on parchment paper with the dough sitting in the CorningWare with lid on.
I use a 30 min to 1 hr autolysis, 78% hydration dough. I get a lovely thin very crisp crust with CorningWare. For darker crust I remove lid, and bake for a few minutes longer.
I had found out about old corningware vs new while looking for the max temp. rating, and also about not putting room temp dough into a preheated dish. Luckily, all of mine is the old stuff, so I've baked a few more loaves since my initial post. I've been using parchment, but not in the dish for the second proof like you do. I final proof, then put the dough on the parchment, then put dough plus parchment into the dish - the same way as when I sometimes use parchment to make it easier to put dough into a hot dutch oven. I simply hadn't thought of doing it your way even though the corning isn't hot. I'll have to give it a try.
One of the things I am assuming we're looking for when using a DO is to get "more heat" from the DO since the dough is in closer proximity to the source of the heat (i.e. the walls of the DO).
Assuming this is the case, if you compare Corningware and a cast iron DO I suspect you'll get different amounts of infrared radiation ... my guess is that a cast iron DO emits more infrared than Corningware. This is caused by a property known as "emissivity," which is the amount of IR emitted from a material in comparison to a "perfect black body."
More than you wanted to know, I'm sure.
-Dave (who hopes to get his hands on a DO real soon ... ...)
in a scientific way that fits with what I've seen. I didn't expect loaves done in my dutch oven and in corning to be exactly the same. I can't provide side by side comparisons since I use the corning in order to make smaller loaves. So, I've baked the same dough in both, but not the same amounts or at the same time. I also preheat to 425 with corning vs 450-475 for the dutch oven.
It seems like using the corning results in a slightly less crusty bottom and somewhat less oven spring, which your explanation seems to explain, and which is what I sort of expected without thinking about why.