December 6, 2014 - 5:29am
Starters from fermented fruits
Has anyone made starters from fermenting fruits such as apples and raisins?
I'm made some great tasting loaves but I've also churned out a couple that tasted really bland. I know it's because fruits aren't the same all the time. But does anyone have any experience with this?
Would like to know how to make it as consistent as possible.
This technique is from the book Jayeon Bread by Sanjin Ko. Very interesting flavours but it takes forever to make too! A total of about 8 days if you're starting from scratch.
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of people here have done this. What you are referring to though is Yeast Waters, rather than starters. If you search for that term in this site you should find plenty of threads where people show how to make them and how to use them.
oh, alright thanks I'll check that out!
Raisins, Apple skins, red cabbage leaf, white figs. I've made both yeast water (fruit and water only) as well as starters (fruit, water, flour). The trick is to use only organic fruit to start with, look at the fruit for signs of yeast (white film on fruit skin - very easily seen on red raisins or red cabbage leaf). In the case of the white figs I could even smell the LABs (tangy acid smell). Good luck.
Is it your belief that the yeast strains present on fruits and veg is the same strain of yeasts that are present in the flours that you feed your starter with? I was under the impression that they might be different.
I do believe they are different and while a yeast water will give rise to bread I have found it to be less predictable then a traditional starter made with solely flour and water. In addition, the breads baked with solely yeast water don,t seem to store as long and the crumb is usually less gelatinized.
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I am curious as to why you ask this question...
But first let me address the question. Same strain, no. A strain is like a person in that it a has unique DNA. For example the yeast(s) in my starter are very unlikely to be the same strain as the one in your starter or anybody else's, but are likely to be of the same species, typically candida and saccharomyces. Strains are localised to an area, species exist all over the world. So if you mean species then, yes there will be yeasts of a same species on fermented wheat and fruit. For example s.cerevisiae can be found in both fermentations.
More than anything it's the ecological factors that determine which yeasts come to thrive, same goes for bacteria.
was asked because the OP talked about making "starters" (rather than Yeast waters) from fruits and veg. My interpretation of the term "starter" is a leavening agent that is fed with flour(s) and water. My belief at the moment, (and I am open to be swayed) is that if you begin with organisms that are different to the ones naturally present in the flours which will be used to feed the starter, then they will simply be overtaken by the latter, so all in all a bit of a waste of effort.
A waste of effort? How so? Overtaken the later, yes. But it's not as clear cut as that. If you're getting leavening action does it matter what organisms are providing that lift?
In the creation of an SD starter the microflora undergoes many changes as you will know, a process which takes time. Using fruit juice / puree / pieces / waters will act as a catalyst, providing sugars and essential nutrients (dead yeast are essential nutrients and act as a growth stimulant for the LAB we want / are typical of SD starters incl. l.sanfranciscensis).
It is safe to say that the way a starter is kept will highly influence micro flora. So no matter how you start it an SD starter will become a reflection of how it is maintained.
Using fruit is a helpful shortcut.
"If you're getting leavening action does it matter what organisms are providing that lift?"
One assumes, yes, it does matter, otherwise why not simply use bakers yeast which is very consistent, requires zero maintenance and is ridiculously cheap (20p for 100g) ?
"Using fruit juice / puree / pieces / waters will act as a catalyst, providing sugars and essential nutrients"
There is surely enough "food" for the organisms in the flour/water used during a starter creation so additional sources seem unnecessary to me if they are only food. Fruit juice on the other hand is useful, not so much as a food, but as a way to quickly lower the pH of the mix, thus hampering the replication of some of the unwanted organisms in the lix (leuconostics).
I see a difference between adding some pineapple juice and adding a handful of raisins (perhaps wrongly). Adding actual fruit clearly introduces additional organisms which are present on the fruit skins. I'm not sure that is either helpful, nor a fast track to achieving a stable and consistent starter that is full of the yeasts/labs from the flour.
I agree that any old organism could produce a leavening action in a dough, but for a starter, we are surely looking for as consistent a mix as possible of sustainable organisms. Using the native flour organisms would seem the quickest route to that goal. Nevertheless, I'm open to other suggestions.
You could do that but I thought we were talking about SD starters. So my question remains...
There is plenty of food in the flour but it takes time for it to become available. Fruit sugar will aid in spontaneous fermentation because your providing a big hit of simple sugars. Even 1g of fruit juice would be a lot of food to these organisms.
You seem concerned about adding the "wrong organisms" but why if they die off quickly. When you start with just flour and water you have the wrong organisms too. It takes time for an SD starter to stabilise. So what's the difference?! The benefit is that dead "wrong" yeast are in themselves essential nutrients to the LAB which you are providing from the get go rather than further down the line.
"You could do that but I thought we were talking about SD starters"
Me too, but also we're talking about chucking other stuff into a starter. You said:
"If you're getting leavening action does it matter what organisms are providing that lift?"
In which case we might as well throw some bakers yeast into the starter, it will surely give you plenty of leavening action! Of course I don't recommend that because I believe we want to make a stable and consistent starter using wild yeasts present in the flour.
"When you start with just flour and water you have the wrong organisms too. It takes time for an SD starter to stabilise. So what's the difference?! "
Well, the unwanted organisms naturally in the flour/water will die (due to the low pH) so there's your food/nutrient source. So why add more unwanted organisms into the mix from the get go? They will compete for the food sources that we want the desired organisms to thrive on.
Yes, other stuff. But my viewpoint is in the context of a spontaneously fermented medium. So let me reword my question: "If you're getting leaving action what point is there in debating which organisms are responsible?"
I wouldn't get too hung up about the whole lowering of pH thing. It may be helpful to some degree but it's not a magic bullet. Utilising warm temperatures is arguably a better approach, especially when using just flour and water. Perhaps I'm not explaining this very well but I'm not sure how I can emphasize essential nutrients being a growth stimulant.
For the reasons I have already explained. To stimulate growth of desired LAB.
No. If using fruit juice there'll be plenty of food to go round. Besides the desired LAB won't be around at this early to be competed with.
"No. If using fruit juice there'll be plenty of food to go round"
Yep but back to the OP. Here it was talking about using apples or raisins, not fruit juice.
The bottom line for me here is that adding nutrients, sugars or other good food for the starter is perhaps fine, but if the choice of additive introduces additional " bugs" that we don't want (or which will ultimately be destroyed by the feeding regime) then I find that counter-productive. The end goal will just take longer to achieve I think.
With this in mind, what in your opinion is the best thing to put into a flour/water mix as a super efficient food source?
Yup I agree with mwilson. The types of yeasts present in fruit, veg, will be wild, therefore all different, but the same species. While yeasts from commercial yeasts are the same kind, same strain, and same species since they are cloned. Flour would just be their food. The variable here is whether it's YW or commercial yeast or SD.
So would SD now be a combination of cloned yeasts plus wild yeasts?
Are there huge differences in flavour for you for all those fruits and even the cabbage leaf? I find that no matter what the fruit, the flavour is indistinguishable but there is a subtle, more complex taste to the bread that gives it more character. But I haven't tried with cabbage or figs.
I have not noticed a distinct or unpleasant flavor, raisin/Apple yeast water may be slightly sweeter, the cabbage leaf starter was started with the leaves but they were removed after about 36 hours and fed flour/water only for the maintenence feedings. The fig starter was interesting - I blended the figs into the mix after fermentation but the additional sugars from the fruit made the starter ferment far too quickly.
just remember that a yeast water bread will behave differently from a traditional levain fed sourdough. You can also experiment with using both yeast water and levain together.
I have not yet tried a YW, but it seems maintenance that includes adding flour would introduce other organisms to the mix? Will continued maintenance with water/flour tend to eventually convert the starter to SD?
going with the help of ron rays and teketeke's posts on yeast water and Akiko's personal help through messaging.
I started mine with minneola citrus from the back yard but ahv fed it raisins, apples and cherries over time - right now it is apple and cherry mix.
I use it to replace commercial yeast in recipes where SD isn't waited or needed like in cinnamon rolls. There is no sour component using yeast water but there is a slight sweet one. Mixing it with SD in a recipe cancels out most of the SD sour but it does add good keeping qualities to the bread due to the SD used so the lees than great keeping qualities of YW bread (way better than commercial yeast though) can be enhanced by adding in some SD.
The one odd thing about YW bread is that it can have explosive spring in the oven on occasion so I use it to help lift and open the crumb of heavy breads like high percent whole grain one or those with lots of add ins.
I have always wondered what was actually in YW and it turns out that Debra Wink of SD fame around here also wrote an article for the BBGA on yeast water. I'm not a member and haven't read it but if someone is and can translate it for us that would be nice and sure to answer many questions. It can be found here:
Bread Lines. If you have access to the publication, you can find it in Volume 21, Issue 2, Spring 2013.
I wrote a post on TFL for yeast water here YW Primer
Happy baking with YW
Could I used store bought apple juice and the liquid from marashino cherries... to start a YW?
Curious now,
Diane
Since each of your proposed ingredients is a pasteurized product, you'll be lacking a source for microorganisms. Fresh, unpasteurized apple cider ferments, though, so possibly... Not sure what's in maraschino cherries, but they're several steps beyond raw fruit.
Cathy
If you're trying to use up extra apple juice or hate discarding mar cherry juice, then YW isn't a good solution. However, if you're trying to start a YW culture, just drop a Tbsp of raisins (organic preferred - by us at least) in a jar, add a cup or so of water and ~1 Tbsp of honey, tighten lid, shake, loosen lid and set on counter. Period. Tighten lid/shake/loosen lid once or twice a day. When it gets cloudy after a few days, you've got an active culture to mix 1:1 by weight with flour to make a 100% hydration (or other % if you prefer) starter. That's it. And as dab says, sometimes the leavening power is stunning. Other times, perfectly adequate. And I just inoculate a fresh water+raisins+honey mix once a week with a tsp or so of what's left of last week's cloudy culture. No SD flavors in the breads from it, but great leavening and improved keeping quality.
Would be interesting to feed flour to a 'starter' made as I've described above and see how it develops over a few weeks, fed only flour. I expect it would convergently evolve toward a regular SD starter and lose its YW attributes.
Tom
yeast and LAB found on and in flour for a SD culture, you are cultivating the wild yeast found on the skin of fruits like grapes, berries, apples, raisins, citrus etc. Some fruits don't work by the way - like avocado if I remember correctly? Since the skin of citrus with its volatile oils can kill off wee beasties, I only soaked the fruit with the skins for 2 days then replaced those fruits with skinless minneola fruit.
It is the skin you want and where the yeas reside If it has pesticides, fungicides or wax sprayed on it it won't take off. that is why folks specify organic fruits, I have started YW with just apple peels too.
I made my first YW by throwing into the water+honey a few Tbsps of crabapples stripped from my tree trimmings. Worked great. Now that's terroir.
Now I have to go make some Toadies since Lucy is all out again. They're so much easier to make, with greater variety of stuff in them now that we have a mill.
Must try that. What percentage YW do you add to the other recipes? I assume you would lessen the water required and substitute the quantity with YW?
Excited to try this.
commercial yeast in the dough for a heavy SD bread like a 75%-100% whole grain or high % rye, I will build a small levain with 25 g of YW and 25 g of flour as an addition to the SD recipe,. That is enough to open the crumb. If I am using YW to replace part of the SD levain I might build the SD 1005 hydration levain half as big as the recipe calls for and use the rest of the levain flour to build a 100% hydration YW levain. I sometimes use YW for the liquid in the SD levain itself. If I am replacing the commercial yeast in a yeasted bread, I will take 15%-20% of the dough flour and build a YW levain to 100% hydration and deduct the YW amount from the dough flour.
If you are making a YW recipe from scratch just build a levain using 15-20% of the total flour and build it at 100% hydration using YW. The thing to remember about YW is that it can but not always, be slower than SD. On occasion it can take 10 - 12 hours of final proof on the counter but the fun part is watching the spring it brings to the party.
Happy baking with yW.
Interesting! Thank you.
side effects of yeast water is crumb color, not what you would expect but very eye catching. Most obvious with white flour. :)