November 28, 2014 - 6:31am
Baker's % Question
Hey Everybody,
I've always been confused when reading a written Baker's Percent for a formula or recipe. Using the following example, should the water used in the Poolish be subtracted from the total percent of water in the recipe? Or is the water to be used in the final dough only and the Poolish water additional?
Example:
Flour = 100%
Water = 73%
Salt = 2.0%
IDY = 0.36%
Poolish = 30% of total flour @100% hydration and 0.074% IDY.
The above was found in a recipe for Ciabatta and the water percent seems low to me. My Ciabatta hydration runs around 85% to 90% depending on the time of year, etc. And I subtract the poolish water from the total water used in the formula.
Thanks,,,,,,
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Hey Everybody,
I've always been confused when reading a written Baker's Percent for a formula or recipe. Using the following example, should the water used in the Poolish be subtracted from the total percent of water in the recipe? Or is the water to be used in the final dough only and the Poolish water additional?
Example:
Flour = 100%
Water = 73%
Salt = 2.0%
IDY = 0.36%
Poolish = 30% of total flour @100% hydration and 0.074% IDY.
The above was found in a recipe for Ciabatta and the water percent seems low to me. My Ciabatta hydration runs around 85% to 90% depending on the time of year, etc. And I subtract the poolish water from the total water used in the formula.
Thanks,,,,,,
here are a couple resources...
http://www.bbga.org/files/2009FormulaFormattingSPREADS.pdf
http://www.bbga.org/files//BakersPercent-Healea.pdf
I generally include all water and all flour in the total formula
The intent behind bakers percentage is to avoid having to "recalculate" when scaling up or down a formula. A published formula should reflect this. So, no, don't subtract or add any water or flour etc. generally speaking the idea is that you can do the math to adjust the size of a recipe in your head.
1000g flour
730g water
20g salt
300g poolish@100%
It gets complicated because you have two different hydrations going: the hydration of the poolish and the hydration of the dough. You have to take the poolish hydration into account when calculating the dough hydration. The calculator below should help. Based on the recipe you have provided, the final hydration is 76.5%.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RxS5X7df7dZt3PfaBqhzfrtjgoeYMRo6k27urMFc5eA/edit#gid=0
of the total flour (1000g) as being 300g flour combined with 300g water (subtracted from the flour & water) to make 100% hydration. ??? So, Mix, are you saying to treat a poolish as an ingredient, like it was lying in vats around the bakery? I was under the impression a Poolish is another method to mix the already listed ingredients. That is, to first make a pre-ferment instead of dumping everything all together at once.
A "Poolish" is often about half the flour, a third does not seem far fetched. However; a 300g Poolish with 150g flour and 150g water would seem rather small to me. I wouldn't expect it to add much flavour to the whole.
(Edited to add "1000g" in the first sentence.)
This is definitely not how bread formulas are written, at least not in any book or recipe I have read. It's not uncommon for some bakers to put extra information about final percentages, broken down by where each component comes from (usually because books are intended to inform and teach) but poolish, leaven, starter, biga should all be taken as distinct ingredients unless explicitly instructed otherwise.
This is correct, professional formulas are written in this fashion for the ease of multiplying. The quantity of the poolish added isn't going to tell you much about flavour development without knowing how much time is put into the final dough proofing. Chad Robertson's Country Loaf is only 20% starter, and is not shy on flavour (and he uses the exact same formula for his focaccia.)
900g Bread Flour + 100g WW Flour (100%)
200g Leaven (20%)
750g Water (75%)
20g Salt (2%)
Baker's percentage is measure, not a method or rule. You can have a formula that mixes 75% (baker's %) water but comes out with a final dough hydration of 77%, there is no reason to think that just because the formula says 75% water that your dough is a 75% hydration dough.
Totels has it right.
By definition a poolish is 100% hydration: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/preferments.html
Start with the 100% hydration of the poolish. The recipe clearly calls for 30 b.p. of this poolish which is treated as a separate ingredient. To arrive at the dough hydration you have to figure the amounts of flour and water in the dough and the amounts of flour and water in the poolish.
Try the link again (I had to change the permissions). To make 1 kg of dough it is only necessary to make 146 grams of poolish, which needn't be stored in "vats around the bakery".
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RxS5X7df7dZt3PfaBqhzfrtjgoeYMRo6k27urMFc5eA/edit#gid=0
I think you two have a handle on it. Or at least the same thinking I have been using for a long time. I just get lost in the forest sometimes.
The formula's baker percentages reflects 'all' the ingredients and percentage in relationship the the flour which, we all know, is 100%.
I have bake under the assumption that any preferment's flour and water should come from the ingredients listed in the formula's percentage. Now, I will say that if I add some of my already prepared sour dough starter I will add the amount in the total formula percent side of the recipe as 'Levain Seed', which is not considered coming from the ingredients in the baker's percentage.
Most all of my recipes I use a poolish made up of 30% to 33% of the total flour at 100% hydration. It remains below 76ªf for at least 14 hours. This preferment's water and flour are deducted from the formula's Total Indigents.
The total baker's percent side of the recipe is totaled, both % and ingredients weight. The final dough side is also totaled by ingredient weight, poolish weight that is added in, and should match the Total Recipe side's total. (The Levian Seed, if used, is totaled in both sides.)
Also as Totels states it make it very easy to adjust the recipe's formula up or down based on flour weight or should you want to adjust the percent of an individual ingredient's %.
I think Mini Oven help me clear up my thinking. I think, yes, a poolish is some of the formula's listed flour/water, which is allowed to ferment an extended amount of time to enhance the bread flavor. Again, these amounts are deducted from the total formula's percentages.
Most of my "stuff" bakes out pretty good,, sometimes. So maybe in all this there maybe lots of room for interpretation. After all a formula / recipe is just a guid to get you started.
Thanks all…..
This would be incorrect. Treat the poolish as it's own ingredient, not as part of the other ingredients. Make a poolish, then add it as 30% by weight of your total flour weight. Pretend it's something else entirely, e.g. Honey or Oil if you want, once it's a poolish, it's not just flour and water anymore.
I have seen reputable authors on both sides of this question. I recall that in one book, the author described both methods of writing the formulae, stating that either worked equally well.
I fall in the camp of the poolish/starter/biga ingredients being from the total formula and not a discrete ingredient. See http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/298714#comment-298714 for an example.
cheers,
gary
With the exception of Jeffrey Hamelman, I am starting to equate the phrase "cookbook author" with "rank amateur".
The BBGA is trying to erase this ambiguity. They treat the leaven as a discrete ingredient.
I prefer to treat levain/starter, etc. as a discrete ingredient for the simple reason that in actual baking it is measured separately from the other ingredients.
mixinator,
Kinda agree with your "book" assessment, but will offer that there is a definite place for them in our community. Especially as a vehicle to get new bakers fired up and hungry for more broadened information.
I am also a member of the BBGA. Have been since they first started the formula lay-out that they are currently evolving. I do see what you are taking about in their treatment with leavens/starters. I think that generally they are referred to a "levain seed" or just "seed" and are listed separately across the spread sheet as an "ingredient. Even when these "leavens" are used in conjunction with a poolish or biga.
I also have noticed in the formula's I've studied that in a poolish or biga the water and flour comes out of the "Total Formula" side of the spread sheet. If a "seed" is used, again, it is treated as separate ingredient.
I reference my statement above to the BBGA's Technical Report: "Demystifying of Baker's Percentage" contributed by Tim Healea. (volume 15-1). Take apart his "Jimmy's Bread Formula" located on page nine. But, who knows…. He may also author lots of "cook-books"…
Anyway, studying the BBGA tech papers and their on-going formula's in the monthly "Bread Lines" brought me to my recent confusion in the matter. And I am very happy to learn that there maybe two schools of thought in this discussion.
I really think the the work to standerdize all this for us is as great as the first package of "machine sliced bread". Which pleased all of us out here in the "masses".
I am "fairly" familiar with the standards used by the BBGA. I have gone through formula formatting training on the standard.
When a sourdough type starter is used it is listed as an ingredient. In the overall formula column the percentage for the seed is calculated against the total flour in the formula. In the applicable pre ferment(s) the percentage is calculated against the flour used in the pre ferment.
Why is this important anyway? Not just to create some "standard" against which some people will chafe. It is useful to know the total quantity of seed that must be devoted to make the full formula (especially in the case of multiple pre ferments). It is also useful to know the percentage of the seed that goes into a particular pre ferment so that the baker has a good way of quickly judging how long the pre ferment will need to mature.
And the principle to follow is really quite simple. One starts with the overall formula and subtracts out the various pre ferments to arrive at the final dough. Each pre ferment is also called out as an ingredient and included (as appropriate) in the final dough or in the case of one pre ferment being the basis of another pre ferment, the appropriate pre ferment.
It all has a purpose and even the standard is useful because it gives bakers a common touchpoint - we can actually understand what each other are saying. There are many schools of thought on Baker's Percentages out in the world, but in the BBGA formula formatting world, we are pretty much of one mind.
Books are frozen in time, and the BBGA standard is not - it changes with different challenges. But it is a good, solid basis.
Very happy that you weighed in. Your explanation and insight is well stated and I thank you for taking the time to post.
Even after almost fifteen years of struggling up the "learning-curve" I still consider myself in the "larva" stage in my baking development.
The BBGA's step in developing a common language tool, their formula spread sheet, is wonderful even for someone such as me. As I grow I'll come to understand more of this language and how to apply it.
Presently, I have "dumbed-down" their formula sheet and tailored it to fit my baking skills. This will keep me growing.
Back in 1995 I never thought that baking was such an involved activity ,,,,,, no, actually an art…. Oh, what fun!
Thank you again for the explanation.
Your original dilemma was:
Now look at the table you posted and tell us what the dough hydration is.
Dudes,,,,
Thanks for all the input……. I don't want my question to become like over-risen dough. All I can say is that my methodology, assumption, and formula has served me will…...
See ya, bye
I am trying to get my sourdough calculator to comport with the examples shown on the BBGA site. Their examples either have errors or are just plain weird or both. I stand behind the math in my calculator and it has served me well. What I can't find on BBGA are actual spreadsheets, enabling the user to modify or check the cell contents.
are correct in their math as far as I can see. If you have continuing issues, please contact me by PM
The actual spreadsheets are not available unless you join the BBGA's formula formatting team. But the creation of the spreadsheets is pretty straightforward.
Hope this helps.
This question always makes me crazy, and the only reasonable solution I've found - for myself, anyway, in my own notes - is to do it both ways. Each approach has its logic, but I don't think either approach necessarily tells the whole story. More to the point, if you're using one approach or the other I think it is vitally important to document WHICH, because otherwise it can all too easily lead to confusion. Especially if you're constantly tweaking a formula and trying to keep track of its evolution. So to avoid ambiguity what I usually do is this. I create one BP table for the pre-ferment *; I create another BP table for the final dough, including the pre-ferment as a single ingredient; then I create a sort of summary table indicating overall percentages for the end result. This way I know the hydration of the pre-ferment; I know the hydration of the final dough; I know the relationship between pre-ferment and overall dough; I know what percentage of the flour(s) is pre-fermented, etc. It's a little redundant, perhaps, but it saves me a lot of head-scratching in the long run, and since I'm not meeting print space constraints I don't worry much about it.
* Actually, I sometimes take this to the extreme and do two BP tables for the pre-ferment too - one treating the seed starter as a single ingredient, and another taking into account the combined water and flour quantities to arrive at total hydration for the pre-ferment. Obviously there's no need to bother with this if you're building a 100% hydration levain based on a 100% hydration seed, but it's sometimes helpful in other scenarios.
Here's how I understand it
Example:
Flour = 100%
Water = 73%
Salt = 2.0%
IDY = 0.36%
Poolish = 30% of total flour @100% hydration and 0.074% IDY.
And now in English
Flour (for example) 1000g
Water : 730g [73% of 1000]
Salt : 20g [2% of 1000]
IDY : 3.6g [.36% of 1000]
And now for the Poolish :
300g Flour [30% of Total Flour]
300g Water [100% hydration]
0.74g [.074%]
Now we subtract what we have used in the poolish [polish is made up of ingredients from the recipe]...
Final Recipe
Now this is how i'd work it out. The only thing that confuses me is the weight of IDY. Funny measurement. But the rest makes sense.
simply by measuring out the 3.6g (3.6% of 1000g) and taking a decent pinch of it for the Poolish. The rest gets tossed into the dough 8 to 12 hrs later.