I've never had this happen-please advise
Today I'm making sourdough. Three batches. The last batch is Vermont Sourdough with whole wheat. I hand kneaded the dough about 25 or so minutes and let it autolyse. Then I added salt and kneaded about 5 more minutes. This was longer than I had kneaded similar batches with rye. The dough handled well and rose nicely. When taking it out to shape, I noticed some water at the bottom of the dough. In handling the dough I came across dense sections. These seemed to diminish as I worked it but I fear some may still exist and I haven't a clue as to what's going on. I have made this recipe before with whole wheat and this did not happen. I've read that you cannot over knead by hand so I don't think I did that. The recipe uses bread flour, whole wheat flour, water, salt and culture. Nothing more.
What happened? What did I do wrong?
Mike
Perhaps you have too much water (too little flour). This is only a guess. I doubt I kneaded too much -- I agree, one cannot knead too much by hand. You can allow too much time for the flour to be in contact with the acid medium, but I doubt that that is the case here. I haven't a clue why you had dense sections after that much kneading by this time you must know how to knead,
I suggest you let the shaped dough to rise then bake it as though there is no problem. What have you lost by this, certainly no more than dumping the whole thing.
Ford
They look fine, They rose fine. Slashing and oven spring went ok. I'll cut a slice from one when they cool. This experiment has been a learning experience. I did well in that I accomplished what I set out to do but I want to improve in consistency, organization (planning and scheduling) and note taking.
Consistency - one rye is saltier than the other. Could I have double salted a batch? I used coarse salt and the first loaf tossed salt everywhere when I kneaded it. Since my wife detects salt in both breads I'm inclined to believe I simply lost more salt in one batch. I am done with coarse salt. I was using up the last of it. And what was with the last batch? Why did water separate out and leave dense areas? I hope they resolved in the rise and baking.
Organization - two batches did seem to go back to back. There was a lag at one point between bakes. I also would lose track of which rising dough was at what stage. As a result I may not have given all batches the same folds.
Notes - good at first, lighter as the day progressed. I need to work on that.
I normally do not bake this much in one day. I am very impressed with professional bakers and their skills.
A couple quick thoughts:
For adding salt: hold back a small portion of the water and use it to dissolve the salt and help it combine into the dough.
Another technique I use when hand mixing, is to spread the dough out on the work surface (pat it, roll it, or stretch it - whatever's easiest) to create a lot of surface area and sprinkle the salt over the dough, then roll it up, and go back to kneading. This way the salt is already distributed somewhat in the dough, and should disperse more with kneading. And it probably won't go flying.
Also, not quite sure what is meant by this:
Notes - good at first, lighter as the day progressed.
When I first started I noted the start and end times and duration of things I did. By the third batch my notes were rather dismal. My notes for the third batch should have been as good as on the first batch.
Salt tips - yep, I should have thought of something like that. My brain is getting rusty. Thank you very much for those tips.
I cut a slice from one of the whole wheat sourdoughs. There are firm areas that lack crust. The look like a smooth solid. They taste very salty. I know I carefully measured the salt on that batch. I kneaded the dough after adding the salt. Perhaps some of the coarse salt did not mix well.
I'm not sure if I should throw the bread out. Some folks like salty bread and I personally find 2% to be too much for my taste. More like 1.65 to 1.75%.
Could it be free water? I disagree that you can't over mix a dough by hand. You certainly can. But it would take quite some time that it is usually not a culprit of problems when hand mixing is involved.
You mention you mixed for 25 minutes then autolysed and then mixed for 5 more minutes? Is this correct?
The mix for an autolyse should be minimal and just to be sure there is no dry flour and all the water has been taken up. Then you rest and follow with kneading. One purpose of autolyse is to decrease the needed mixing times, decreasing oxidation. Allowing the flour to fully hydrate begins the gluten formation without agitation.
If you were to hand mix for 25 minutes pre autolyse I might guess you did over mix the dough and had some gluten breakdown resulting in the free water escaping the dough. 25 minutes is much longer than I need to mix a dough by hand, and that is following an autolyse as described above.
Josh
I mixed and kneaded the final dough without salt. The directions called for an autolyse up to one hour. Then mix/knead in the salt. I say five minutes but it may have been a bit less. The salt did not want to blend in.
So I have four loaves with light salt, four that taste salty and four that have salt islands in them. My results leave little to brag about. Time to back up and approach this a bit more cautiously next time.
Here's a photo. The salt spot is darker and near the center.
I only ever use table salt in my bread, having read somewhere that some bakers never use the coarse salt because of its tendency not to melt. I have added salt at the end, kneading it in after mixing it with a little water, but again, it's table salt.
I'm sticking to fine salt. I bought some sea salt by Hain that looks just like table salt. Round container and all.
I am going over my notes and adding to them. I will reduce the salt to 1.75% and probably round down depending on the result. I do pay attention to the temperatures that J. Hamelman uses for his rises. In summer my house is between 78-80F. Right now it's in the mid to low 70's. That means I get quicker rises than he mentions. I also have to hand knead where he calls for a mixer.
My next effort will be a two loaf version using less salt and I will try to do a schedule. Since it is getting cooler I'd start the levain on Saturday afternoon and plan the final dough build for Sunday morning. Since I work on Saturday till at least noon I cannot do a Friday night levain unless I refrigerate it.
I'm taking in twelve loaves to work tomorrow. I have one loaf of each type missing a slice from my taste tests. I can put these out at work for tasting so folks can choose what they want. I once royally screwed up a recipe so that the bread was like a salt lick. My in-laws loved it.
Been there and did that. Hard but very sharp lumps if you break them, nasty, like glass cuts on the skin and with table salt! Since that's the last of the coarse salt (which attracts water) this problem is pretty much over. Salt can encapsulate if not mixed in well or in large crystals. On the bottom of the bowl, it can suck water directly out of the dough.
When It happened to me, I had just mixed in the salt and didn't have time to knead the dough, I simply covered the dough and planned on kneading it in when I returned, thinking it would be fine or dissolve. I was called away for several hours and upon returning found lumpy dough. Horrible lumps and cut hands were the result. Not worth keeping the dough when this happens. Only thing that can save it is to remove all the lumps and throw them away. Taste and correct the dough for salt.
Would it be best to just throw those loaves out?
if they were mine. These salt lumps can cut your mouth if you bite into them. Up to you. you've cut into some of them, what are you finding?
I haven't seen salt crystals, just dense areas as in the photo.
that your starter had lumps of flour in it that hadn't been properly stirred in?
Also could you clarify the use of rye. You talk about the recipe only using Wholewheat, no mention of rye, but then a few times you talk about using rye. Rye can cause gumminess if there isn't enough acidity.
From my reading of your description, you kneaded for 25 minutes before you started the autolyse. I think this might be part of the issue (besides possibly damp salt since it was the last bits of it). Once the gluten is developed that much it makes it more difficult to mix in the salt. Just do a quick mix before autolyse. Let it autolyse for 20 minutes to an hour and then add the salt and do the kneading. I think the salt was added too late in the process. While I agree you cannot over knead dough by hand, you can knead it enough that the salt will be difficult to add. I think this is what happened.
Besides, the point of autolyse is to get the gluten development a head start so that you don't have to knead for so long to get the same result.
You should autolyse first, and then knead. Aside from that a solid 25mins of hand kneading is a nightmare in my books ! Who wants to do that for their daily bread ? Surely by the 5 min mark the dough was starting to "fight back". I find you can only knead a dough so far and then it positively screams out for you to let it rest a while so that more of the chemical reactions can take place and the the dough relaxes. At that point you can start kneading again. For this reason I do all my kneading in 10 min intervals over a 40min period. Each knead is no more than 20 secs or so.
Either way though, autolyse immediately after the initial dough mix to allow gluten to develop. Then add salt (and the held back water) and then knead. AIMHO
Typically my bread making has been - mix all ingredients, knead, autolyse, knead a little bit more, rise, shape, rise, bake, cool and eat. I used a mixer for the most part. Since becoming mixerless I have done more hand kneading using the above pattern. I have recently switched to the slap and fold method favored by certain french bakers.
Yesterdays experiment introduced a new variable. The late entry of salt. I know why it's added late and I have read pro's and con's regarding this method in many books. But this recipe said add it late, so I did. Problems arose from my incomplete understanding of the processes involved and the use of coarse salt. In addition, I was down to a 4 qt bowl to use to mix 5 pounds of dough. As a result, much of the work was done outside of the bowl. I started with a very shaggy mix that I worked together with my hands until it looks mixed and then I kneaded it.
Yes, tension increased in the dough as I kneaded. But this was a shaggy, sticky mess that I had to get into shape. It stuck to my hands and the board. I misted the counter just a bit and put a non-slip liner between the counter and my kneading board. The board still slid about as I kneaded. When I leaned in against to board to hold it in place, it lifted from the counter when I pulled the dough up. Like I said, sticky. I wanted to photograph what I was doing but I could not operate a camera with my hands covered in dough. Even after kneading for almost half an hour the dough was sticky. Yes, it looked like dough but I had to scrape it off the board to put it into the bowl for autolysing.
So instead of knead, autolyse, knead a bit more, I should be doing knead a bit, autolyse, finish kneading. This is also something I've reading conflicting information on. But since my whole wheat sourdough did not work using the first method, I will try it this way next time. Perhaps tomorrow if my Dr's appointment doesn't last too long. (I still don't think I need a physical but my insurance provider says they'll pay if I do it.)
Most books that I have assume a mixer. It appears that things like this salt fiasco create situations requiring different solutions when hand kneading. I had assumed that mixer/hand knead were interchangeable but it appears that hand kneading introduces it's own set of variables.
I'll re-visit some of my books. I appreciate all the help. You folks are a great help.
Mike
It helps if you think of it in this order... 1. Mix 2. Autolyse 3. Add salt 4. Knead 5. Bulk ferment, etc.
Don't think of the first thing you do as kneading. Think of it as mixing to get it so that the flour is incorporated. That is to mix it to a shaggy mess that doesn't have white streaks. You do not at this point have to get this to look like dough before the autolyse.
If you are switching over from mixer to hand knead, then I HIGHLY recommend you read up on the stretch and fold method. This is especially helpful with higher hydration. That order would look more like this... 1. Mix 2. Autolyse 3. Add salt 4. stretch and fold and start the clock on the bulk ferment 5. wait at least 20 minutes (or up to an hour) 6. stretch and fold 7. repeat 5 & 6 as many times as needed to get a well developed dough (maybe 3 times plus or minus) 8. finish bulk ferment (that is leave the dough for whatever time is left, you do not have to restart the clock on the bulk ferment) 9. continue as normal.
The stretch and fold technique works a lot like autolyse in developing gluten. Each stretch and fold expels the old CO2, builds strength, and balances out the temperature in the dough. This is much easier than kneading and the results are great.
I second the motion to hold back some of the water for use in dissolving coarse salt.
I use a pretty coarse grain grey salt in my breads, and typically hold back about 5 times the weight of salt in water. To aid dissolving, i typically boil some water in the kettle, then pour it over the salt (on the scale in a ramakin). Then add the salt water after autolysis is over.
I will be going through my books to see which ones are more geared to hand kneading. I will heed the advice to just mixing prior to autolyse and see how this works. Starting with a bread machine and then going to mixers kind of got me to just adding everything at the beginning, mix, knead, rise, shape and bake. With the ocassional exception of adding raisins or nuts at the end of the knead. Many folks recommended adding salt early so it is not forgotton but I set my ingredients so I can see if something is left behind.
BTW, the 8 loaves I brought to work were a hit.
Thanks again for all the help and advice.