16 times, and my Tartine's loaf is still a disaster!! Why???!
I think I'm going insane! I tried the basic Tartine's loaf 16 times and I am not getting it! I must be one in a million that does not get this. I'll list in bullet points what was wrong with my loaf:
- Absolutely no oven spring
- Crust is too thick and inedible
- Loaf sometimes came out unbaked in the middle
- Crumbs are tight and needless to say, because the loaf did not have any oven spring, I can't really say much about crumb structure
Here is what I noticed what was wrong with my loaf prior to having it in the oven:
- After the final fermentation, the loaf became flat with no structure. I was able to shape it ok with no difficulty during the initial shaping/ bench rest period. Then just when I unearth the loaf to score, it was impossible to cut through the loaf in one stroke as the loaf had no structure by this time.
- After the first 20 minutes of baking, I took off the lid and the loaf size was exactly the same size before it went into the oven.
I'm so desperate trying to figure out while 16 times I'm still facing the same mistakes! Please, please help! I really am trying to learn!
Thank you!
My first thought is overproofing, and my second is insufficient gluten development. Excessive acidity from the starter might be a factor as well, but I don't know enough about your process to be sure.
It would be helpful if you posted about what your usual process is like. Timing, starter refreshment, type of flour, temperature of environment, anything else you want to add. Then it would also be easier to say what you should do differently.
I did take notes on my process and I will promptly copy it here tomorrow.
Since you mentioned gluten development, I have noticed that Chad's instruction of S&F isn't very clear, well, at least for me, a beginner. He didn't mention Exactly how many S&F I should be doing each time! I also noted down how many S&F I did each time so you'll understand what I did incorrectly.
I'm about to drive my husband to the cliff - he said watching me making the Tartine bread made him feel exhausted! I feel like a retard b/c I'm not getting one thing right after 16 trials...
Please stay tuned...I'll post my process from my notes...and Thank You for taking the time to respond!
Great that you've been taking notes! I'm kind of shoddy on that front myself.
If I recall correctly, I think Chad recommends doing a stretch and fold every half hour for the first two or three hours of the bulk fermentation. I don't remember if he gives a good definition of what to look for in terms of development, but it should eventually become soft and pillowy and not stick to your hands too much. That said, I think you can get a good result without getting your dough to quite that point.
Frankly, I always had trouble getting good results following his recipes as written. I did the basic loaf once or twice and it came out alright in terms of crumb, but the flavor was lacking for me. Even then, I did more autolysing and fridge time and less stretch and folds to get a nice rise and whatnot, but for many of his other loaves I just started using a mixer.
what kind of flour are you using (please be brand specific)?
how healthy is your starter?
As cerevisiae suggested, some more detail would be useful. A picture of your starter and the final crumb would be useful too.
First I would blame the book. I took the book out of the library to see what all the fuss was about. Still can't figure it out. There are a lot of mistakes in the book. I have found a lot but there are probably more. Not little mistakes. If you post your complete method we can see if it is correct. I made a cake recipe from the book and the amounts were way out. The grams/cups conversion were triple the amounts! That book is in my opinion, nothing more than advertising for the bakery which represents some sort of lifestyle, which I can't figure out. Maybe having a lot of money and surfing is the lifestyle? Get a real book like Hamelman's Bread and you will become a good baker if you follow the instructions and read it carefully. Reinhardt's BBA might also help. Tartine is a cult of personality/marketing thing. The baked goods at the bakery look mediocre as well, albeit baked by really cool looking young people.
But, as there is not a single cake recipe in the Tartine Bread book, I think you may be the one mistaken here. Perhaps hit has bread recipes in his pastry book, which I do not have. But I have make wonderful bread from his bread book without difficulty.
I don't think I could try that many times and keep at it. So way to be tenacious. Glad you finally stopped in for Help!
He says stretch and fold every 30 minutes for the first two hours (so four there) and then to do it very gently after the third hour. So, five altogether. If you do it after the fourth hour you may do more harm than good.
The key is to follow the directions. I read the recipe a dozen times before starting. Still got it wrong. I suggest writing it out shorthand for easy reference.
if the levain is building nicely then your next most important step is temperature. Gwt the temps to what he says they should be and you will get the bread he is showing on the timeline he suggests.
next go, take picturea at each stage. Look at my blog for a pictorial on this loaf.
Tartine book No.3 apple walnut tea cake calls for 1 1/3 cups walnuts which is far less than the whopping 375g listed.
In the Tartine bread book there are mistakes that make many recipes unworkable. You want me to list ALL of them?
I do understand Chad is the fearless leader and all that. I get that, believe me. I am very sorry for critiquing the book and I hope they will forgive me in baking heaven. After 44 years as a baker I hope I can still fit through the pearly gates though. When a novice looks at a photo that says seem side down and the photo is seam side up there are problems. . .
I did not mean to give offense. You said that there were numerous mistakes in the book, and then to support the statement, you highlighted an error that was clearly not in the book. So it looked like you were critiquing a different book.
I get that you were a professional baker for 44 years and are no doubt frustrated that someone else with less experience and less skill is getting all of the glory and making all of the money. Life is like that sometimes.
That said, I baked a basic country loaf following his formula and methodologies, and was told by a retired professional baker that my bread was as good as she'd had, and I could open a bakery. Not sure that one loaf makes a viable product line, but I only wish to point out that I found nothing wrong with the formula for the basic country loaf, and while he may not lay out bakers percentages in a way that is traditional or even useful to a professional baker, it in no way made it more challenging to bake his bread. That said, if you were looking at the formula and saw 75% water and automatically assumed that that included the water in the Levain, and then adjusted the ingredients accordingly, you would wind up with a different product. But, then again, if you did that you would not be following his instructions.
I think it is fine to be critical of a book, formula or person. But, to suggest here that one should blame the book for being unable to make the basic country loaf, suggests that there is something wrong with the formula as laid out in the book -- and it is just not the case. The formula, as laid out in the book, makes beautiful bread.
I liked how you disingenuously write that no offense was meant by your post and then you falsely accuse me of being "no doubt frustrated" etc.. but then I saw you were a lawyer, and it made sense. Knowing nothing about me it takes a real jerk to post that. But again, it's understandable. :-) Thank you for the life lesson!
No offense was intended. You wrote:
I was given the impression that you were frustrated. Hence, I wrote:
There was nothing disingenuous about what I wrote and no accusations were made (by me), false or otherwise. I am not sure what life lesson you learned here, but I'd suggest you've got a long way to go.
There are 3 Tartine books. The bread book is usually the one we discuss here. The "No. 3" book seems to be what is mentioned above with the cake recipe. I have only skimmed the "No. 3" book, but it didn't draw me in the same way the bread book did (perhaps because I am more interested in bread). There is a section on bread in there but it is of course not as thorough as the bread book. Just thinking this is where some of the confusion lies.
http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/our-version-of-tartine-style-bread/
Tried and tested. Very nice.
That version is correct and will work. They have other nice recipes on that site as well. Thanks for that link.
Well explained with photos and videos. Clear instructions.
I honestly did try the recipe as well....I didn't note down my result, but it wasn't a good one either! : ( Yep, I'm terrible...and beginning to think this bread baking hobby isn't liking me too much! But thanks for letting me know, I may get another courage to try it again sometimes!
First, thanks everyone for leaving your comments/ suggestion. I truly appreciate it. Please be patience with me as I have to warn you, I am a SLOW learner when it comes to baking. I don't have the magic brain to figure things right the first failure!!! So here was my note while baking the bread:
Leaven:
I made the leaven at 6:30 p.m. on Saturday, covered it with plastic wrap and left it in a dark room, with room temperature between 78 - 79F.
Next day - dough day: (I had to run an errand and did not know that I was going to be out for a while so I did not get back home to start using the leaven until around noon).
My observation of the leaven was that it was active, many bubbles but I did not do the float test, but truly I was sure it was active! Mixed the leaven with King Arthur's bread flour as I ran out of my whole wheat and I thought I had a whole bag at home. So I mixed the leaven with King Arthur's bread flour and autolyse at 12:33 p.m. I left it in a dark room with temperature around 80F.
Autolyse for 45 minutes.
Added in salt, then rest the dough rest for 10 minutes.
Bulk fermentation started at 1:46 p.m.
First set of S&F. I pulled up the dough, folded it down onto itself and rotate the bowl and repeat. I did this 5 times. Let the dough rest for 30 minutes.
Second set of S&F. I pulled up the dough, folded it down onto itself, rotate the bowl and repeat. I did this 5 times. The dough was rested for 30 minutes.
Third set of S&F. Repeated the same steps above, but I increase the S&F and did this 8 times. Rested the dough for 30 mintes.
Fourth set of S&F. Same as above - S&F 8 times. Rested for 30 mins.
Fifth set of S&F. Same as above. I noticed the dough was still very sticky and a sluggish mass.
Sixth set of S&F. Same as above. Dough was sluggish, somewhat came together ok, but far from what I would think it should be (?)
I decided to do another set of S&F. So in total I did seven times of S&F. Let the dough rest for 10 minutes. At this time the dough did have 2 visible bubbles and became pillowy (is that a word?)
Bench rest started and finished at 5:33 p.m. I did not have any difficulty pre-shaping the dough at this time. It was sure sticky, but it came into a round boule without me touching too much rice flour to assist. At a matter of fact, I was somewhat confident at this point that I was doing "everything ok"....to be honest....
Bench rested for 25 minutes.
During the S&F, and resting period above, the house temperature was running around 78F and there was no draft, no opened windows, etc.
Additional note on the initial shaping: Dough was easily shaped into a boule. Sticky dough, but pillowy and it remained its shape nicely. The edge did not "run over" or appear flat. The edge had a nice round shape. I used the metal spatula to shape/ turn the dough while the left hand guided the dough in circle.
Final shaping started at 5:59 p.m.
I followed Chad's instruction to do my final shaping, i.e. the "envelope" style. I did not however, stretch the dough as far as he would (according to the picture on his book). I did not want to destroy the "precious" bubbles on my dough so I did stretch, but I wouldn't say I stretch it very much. I did the "envelope" shaping only once, turned the dough over, seam side down and quickly shaped the dough with the technique that I mentioned above for my initial shaping. I would say the boule was shaped nicely and it stayed round the whole time.
Finished final shaping and rested the dough at 6:04 p.m. in a dark room, with temperature around 80F.
Note on final shaping: Dough has a few good bubbles and very pillowy. It held its shape well and very easily shape into round. I did not stretch the boule too much while folding it into an "envelope" shape as I was afraid of destroying the bubbles. Final boule was very round, smooth, taunt and extremely soft, pillowy. Good!
(Yep...I was WAY too confident at the time...)
At around 8 p.m., I checked the dough and realized it had increased in size, about 20%. Also, I preheated the oven to 550F with the combo cooker inside and the pizza stone under the combo cooker.
At 9:46 p.m. I checked the dough and saw that it spilled over the edge of the banneton I figured it must be time to bake as I was afraid I might have overproofing the dough somehow ??? I unearth the dough and it was no longer the nice, taunt round shape but became rather wider and not flat, but definitely it felt like it had been deflated somehow. It had became sluggish, no body, no structure - I knew immediately I faced disaster. I went ahead and scored and it was very difficult to score as I couldn't make one lean cut. I baked the dough at 450F for 20 minutes, took the top part off, and the dough looked Exactly the same shape and size as it was before it went into the oven. My heart sank. It was almost 10:30 p.m. and i was exhausted. I felt like screaming my head off and I think the whole world just became a very, very dark place!!! I knew it was another failure, just like the other 15th times.
I truly, truly and earnestly want to bake a decent, simple, with nice ears, great oven spring, great crumb structure country bread!!! Please Help!!!
1) Have you tried pre-heating to 500 rather than 550? I have no idea if that could make a difference, but know he says 500 in the book.
2) Have you baked any successful loaves with the starter? That doesn't sound like it is the problem, but I just wanted to check. Have you ever done the float test? Other than having bubbles at the surface does it look like it has grown significantly from when you first mixed the levain?
3) Are you following the formula -- meaning, are you using only 200 grams levain for the bake or are you using all 400 that he says to make?
Hi David - To answer your questions:
1/ No. I haven't tried preheating the oven to 500F. I thought if I could max it as it allowed, then that was the way to go. But yes, I'll definitely try to do this next time.
2/ I had to start my starter a few times, counting the time I first started baking a rustic loaf. The reason was that I accidentally killed it while it was in the oven! But all in all, I haven't had much luck with baking any good loaf with my starters thus far. I did the float test a few times and my starters never passed the float test. It looked great though, bubbly and all that before I started making the levain and with the "yeasty" smell. I would like to say I'm pretty sure that although the problem could be with my starters, but I highly doubt it. But then again, with so many unsuccessful loaves, I must re-consider.
3/ Yes, I followed the formula exactly. I'm only using 200 gr. of levain to bake...
Thank you, David for your help!
It does sound like everything was going great until the bake. I'm still left to guess that it was maybe overproofing.
It might be time to set this one down for a bit, try something else, and come back to this later. You could try the variation by weekend bakery posted by another commenter above. Or maybe try a different book, such as Ken Forkish's Flour Water Salt Yeast or Hamelman's bread, or search around this site for some recipes. I was going to suggest the 1-2-3 sourdough recipe, but I don't think it comes with a lot of instructions, so it may not be the best for you right now.
If you haven't made any or much bread with commercial yeast, maybe try doing a few loaves of that style to get more comfortable and familiar with the bread making process. I think having a few other successes under your belt might be good for you.
cerevisiae - I'm going to be honest - I also did try Mr. Forkish's formula 3 times prior to switching to Tartine's formula. I don't have the note for Mr. Forkish's bread that I baked, but my loaves did not turn out well either and the issue remained the same - oven spring, crust was too thick/ burnt outside and crumbs were gummy. I don't know, but I have a feeling it must then be my technique and my lack of judgement when it comes to judging the dough during fermentation and S&F. There is ONE recipe that I've always successfully made and that is Peter Reinhart's pizza dough. Well, that one does not involve any S&F by hands so I just used my KA's mixer to do the job the whole time.
Also, while being frustrated with my Tartine's loaf, there were 2 times I made my loaf using the "No Knead Bread" made popular by Jim Lahey. This loaf came out all right although I did not like the taste of it - it wasn't "interesting" enough, I guess. The crumbs were ok - not great by any mean. The crust was slightly "thinner" comparing to my trials with Forkish and Tartine's loaves. However, yet again, my oven spring with all these formulas were very, very pathetic.
I hope I gave you enough background/ history of my bread baking trials so you may tell me that it must be my techniques somehow? Thank you again, for taking the time to respond to my post!
18 hours is a long time at that temperature. That is the temperature here and 3-5 hours is good even with a small inoculation. Try whatever recipe you like with commercial yeast and see what happens.
baliw2 - so you think that I had left the levain standing at room temperature too long? I just want to make sure I understand your feedback so I can change it next time. Also, I did try the "No Knead" bread technique by Jim Lahey with commercial yeast and although the loaf was ok, I have to admit there was nothing outstanding about it. Mine came out just ok and the loaf did rise a little, not much at all - if I have to remember, it was probably no more than 10% risen in the oven, and no oven spring at all. Thank you for your help!!!
Because the loaf was a real disaster, I could not bare staring at it so I threw it out the same night, so unfortunately, I don't have any picture to post but I should have done that. It was a terrible loaf of bread that I guess the only use for it would be for me to keep it around and if I'm mad, I could hurt someone really bad with it! Just kidding!
The last time was the First time I baked the bread the same day of making it. Meaning, it was the first time I allowed the dough to rest for about 4 hours prior to baking it. My previous attempts were all baking the bread the day after the dough day. I rested the dough in the fridge anywhere from 12 - 16 hours prior to baking it. There was only one time I happened to have a loaf with a small "ear" cropped up. All in all oven spring was still horrible. Crust was rather chewy, thick and couldn't eat it and crumb was gummy, dense...The bulk fermentation was very much the same as I did above. There were a few times I did more S&F, meaning instead of doing the usual 5 - 8 times of S&F with each 30 minutes resting, I increased the S&F to a few more times - I hope I am making sense!
what went wrong with your loaves. I baked quite a few Tartine breads, among them the Country Loaf, always with the overnight fermentation in the fridge.
If your bread spills over the rim of the banneton, either the banneton is too small or the bread overproofed. And when you turn the bread out after proofing it will not be taut as you shaped it anymore but wider and flatter.
Did you ever check you oven temperature with a thermometer to see whether it is correct or off? Could it be that your oven temperature is lower than it should be - I wonder why your crust is so thick and inedible.
I don't think the lighting of a room has any influence on the dough.
Karin
Hi Karin - I do have the Taylor oven thermometer stays in my oven all time so I'm pretty sure it was at 550F when I first put the bread into the oven, then I immediately lowered the oven temperature down to 450F. I put a note that it took my oven about 15+ minutes for the oven temperature to lower to 450F from 550F when I first pre-heated the oven with the combo cooker. Could it be that I should not pre-heat the oven so high and the crust cooked too quickly and the inside did not have time to cook then? Thank you for your question!
None of the Tartine breads I baked so far required to preheat the oven that high, only to 500 F.
I can imagine that accounts for some of your problems, since, even if some of the heat escapes when you open the door, the DO will be extremely hot and the baking stone will retain the heat, too.
When you say you made the starter on Saturday with the intent of baking with it the next day, were you making a brand-new starter or activating an existing, mature one? A brand-new starter takes a bit more than a week to reach maturity. The yeasty aroma tells you it's ready.
Once you get a mature starter you can keep it in the fridge. Then the plan of making new starter with the older, mature starter (called the inoculum) mixed in will work. That's how I do it and you don't have to pour flour down the drain. I can explain how to make new starter from old if you don't already know how.
mixinator - I used an existing starter. This starter was made back in late June and for the first 3 weeks, I fed it twice a day; early morning, and then sometimes in the evening. The day that I planned to bake the bread, I actually used the starter after about 5 hours of feeding it. So I'm not sure if the starter is the cult of my bread problem this time....thank you for asking!
What does your starter smell like before you "feed" it and immediately before you use it? Can you smell yeast?
I didn't take note on its smell, but I'm pretty sure it smelled quite strong and yeasty, and sour...Maybe I can figure out how to take a picture of it now so you can see? Not sure if that will give you any additional info about it....
inoculation of the starter bothers me. Too warm for me, my starter would be ready in 5 hours at 80°F. That would be a 20g starter to 100g flour feeding. The ferment seems much too long and then to read later that the dough went "sticky" which to me says that the enzymes now have the upper hand. Try shortening that first elaboration or letting it ferment at cooler temps closer to 73°F.
Thinking about the times... If I fed it at 6pm and it was peaking at midnight or before, I would tuck it into the refrigerator to use the next day at my pleasure.
Mini Oven - Just so I understand, would you suggest that next time, I should use the levain within 4 hours, after feeding my starter at 80F ? In other words, making the levain at 6 p.m. and did not use it until noon the next day was too long at 78-79F? My previous experience with my starter was that after a mere 5 hours or so of making the levain, it didn't "look" like it was ready/ as in I didn't see any bubbles.... Thank you so much!
Basic Q's
Tell us all about the starter. How it is maintained. (details)
Room temp? Starter temp? Storage temp? Geographical location.
Mini Oven -
The starter that I used to make this last attempt was maintained since late June - June 29th to be exact. I fed my starter twice in a day (morning and late evening). This has been 100% hydration with 15 gr. Organic Dark Rye (Bob's Red Mill) and 15 gr. water. The water was tap water that let sitting out for 4 days prior to first using it. So every time I fed my starter, I scooped out 15 gr. of the yeast and replaced it with 15 gr. of flour and 15 gr. of water. There were several times, and I can't truly remember how many, but roughly a dozen times where I accidentally poured about 1 - 2 more Tbsp. of water to the mixture. Overall, room temperature was between 78-79F from 6 p.m. until 9 a.m. (next day), then I adjusted it to 81F from 9 a.m. until 6 p.m. The only reason is that I'd be at work so I adjusted the temperature up a bit.
I honestly don't know what my starter temperature is, but I can guarantee it is a very active/ sour starter. A couple of weeks ago, I did take a couple pictures of my starter (after my last failure). I'll see if I can learn how to upload those on here for your observation.
I live near Dallas, Texas .
Thank you so much, for taking the time to help me out!
Are you mixing 15g of starter with 15g of water and 15g of rye flour (1:1:1) Twice a day at warm temps? If so, right away I see a problem. Not enough food (flour) at those warm temperatures. So... the starter could be more active. Try feeding less starter more flour, 5g (one teaspoon) of starter 20g water and 20g rye flour. Twice a day. (1:4:4) Watch the starter, it should be rising to peak, level out and start falling back in about 8 hrs. having between 2 to 4 hrs before being fed again. If it peaks sooner, it needs more food for the 12 hr stretch to the next feeding. A few days of bigger feedings should help the starter. Then try the Tartine recipe again.
If you are mixing bigger feeds and there is no activity, let it stand and build up acid until it shows yeast activity. It might take a day or two of patience, but wait for it. It should not only smell and taste sour but smell beery and very yeasty when yeast is present.
I like to use my rye starter in a recipe as it peaks. I like it a little more fermented for maintenance feeds.
As temperatures drop and cool down with Autumn, slowly raise the starter amount so the starter can consistently maintain its activity within the 12 hrs. With warm days and cool nights below 72°F, it is not unusual to feed more flour during the day and much less at night or even skip the night feeding. It depends on your starter and how quickly it eats thru the flour.
When tired of feeding and want a break, feed it, let it rise about 1/3 to peak and then put into the refrigerator. It's good for at least a week or two. If you remove any of the starter before 3 days, let it warm up and ferment a little more before feeding it or making more of it.
Hi Mini Oven - yes, you were correct. I was mixing 15 gr. of starter with 15 gr, of flour and 15 gr. of water twice a day. As soon as I read your comment, I immediately switched the ratio so my starter is now measured about 1 tsp. and I fed it with 20 gr. of starter and 20 gr. of water. I noticed that I can't seem to "see" when my starter begins to fall back, but it is doing well. I haven't noticed any sour smell yet (since I changed the ratio to 1 tsp.) but I'll follow your advise and give it a few more days. Thanks so much for your clear instructions about feeding/ maintaining my starter. I'll fix that first and I'll try the Tartine's recipe again. I just can't believe I'm the only one that struggles with this bread baking business (well, more like an expensive and frustrating hobby!!!)
"I noticed that I can't seem to "see" when my starter begins to fall back, but it is doing well."
I would assume it was doing well if you are seeing a rising, a peaking of activity, and the first fall or deflating of the starter. Even with that small amount. Try putting it into a container small enough (with straight sides) so that it has to climb the sides when rising and that you have at least 2 cm of dough cleanly packed on the bottom. Small flat dishes are hard to compare and observe.
If the starter is too thin to rise, then use a little less water so that it is a paste or soft dough, it might be able to trap the gas better in order to rise. It should dome and rise, the surface being round. As it peaks, the roundness goes flat and often a dimple or indentation can be seen in the middle as it starts to deflate releasing gas. Then it will collapse onto itself and rise a second time and fall again. Then the culture is really in need of food! Pay attention to the first rise, it usually leaves a water or scum mark on the clean glass if you missed it. :)
I haven't read your entire novella but an 18-hour proof is way too long. Cut it down to 8 hours.
What is your proofing temperature?
mixinator - Can you tell me how I can it the proofing time down to 8 hours? I've been trying to figure that out and accept my apologies, but I wasn't so sure how I will be able to achieve that. After reading all the suggestions/ feedbacks previously, I also think that it's clear I had over-proofed the dough somehow. My proofing temperature was around 80F. However, while I was performing S&F hours, it was at 78-79F. Thank you so much for your time!
Mix your dough -- flour, water, salt and levain -- and leave for 8 hours, Then shape, slash and bake. That's how you get 8 hours of proofing time.
Mixinator - the S&F hours don't count as "proofing time", right? I'm sorry...still really learning all of this. Thanks for your patience and help!
In this case, the S&F hours are also the bulk fermentation. Usually, mixing and bulk fermentation are distinct steps, but Chad's method kind of combines the two. The stretch and folds take care of gluten development, but in a gentle way that preserves the gas bubbles in the dough that are being created while the dough ferments/proofs in-between the folds.
So basically, the mix is done about the same time as the primary fermentation. I recall Chad recommends doing less stretch and folds later in the proofing process, on the basis that the dough should be sufficiently developed (or almost there) by that time, and letting the focus be more on letting a bunch of gas build up on the dough to give it that open, airy texture.
Once you're done with folding the dough, your dough should be ready or almost ready to move on to the divide and preshape.
Thanks for clarifying that cerevisiae! I feel like I need to buy an elementary bread baking book to thoroughly comprehend basic understanding about the different set of hours during making bread. I did S&F quite intensively during the first 2 times of S&F while making the loaf. I decided to do this because after so many failures, I thought that if I increased the number of time I do S&F, then I will help the loaf with gluten development better. I think this could be a disaster given the fact that I now understood from Mini Oven that my levain could initially be the problem!
Actually, re-reading your notes, it sounds like you started the autolyse around 12:30 pm, and ended the S&F/bulk fermentation around 5:30 pm, which is only about 5 hours of initial proof, with about 3 - 4 hours of final proof after the shaping. Those numbers sound fine to me.
I think Mini Oven has a good point about the levain; depending on the starter and temp, 6 pm to 12 pm might be a good amount of time for maturing the levain, but for many starters, that would be too long. (Protip: Mini usually has really good advice with starters. I've learned a lot reading her posts.)
Some things that support the excessive enzyme activity theory include the stickyness of the dough you mention when shaping (a number of things can cause this, though) and the gummy crumb after baking.
Ok, so I think I did mature the levain for too long. I will fix that! I guess if I started out with a good starter, as explained, then I shouldn't have with the levain not passing the float test? I was never able to have my levain passed the float test so I increased the time to let it "aged" a little longer to see more bubbles...
This levain was made with 100% whole wheat, but the bubbliness is not any different than I expect when making my levain with 50% AP and 50% Whole Wheat flour. Hear it is, just mixed with my starter.
Overnight on the counter, and it looks like this from the top:
And, from the side:
When it looks like this, I don't bother with a float test.
Hi David - I need to study this loaf again, in detail before I want to do it again. It's been such a big disappointment and the hubby didn't like seeing me wrestling around with it for a while! By any chance, have you documented your progress of making the Tartine's loaf with pictures, or a video?! I know I have Chad's book to refer to, but I'm a visual learner when it comes to baking and the more pictures I can see, the better I can truly understand my failures. So far, this has been an awesome forum for me as everyone really took the time to find out what I did/ did not do, etc. (can't get much better lessons than this!).
Thanks so much!
the 7th post in response to your initial post has a link to a pictorial guide I dId