High Hydration Nightmare
Ladies and gents,
I have a problem. I guess the first step toward resolving the problem is admitting that you have a problem. Well, I have a problem. I cannot handle high hydration dough. I just fail. Miserably.
Yesterday I watched a video of some French guy doing a high hydration recipe, using this lifting, stretching and folding technique. Here is what happened in his video:
1) He mixed the flour and his yeast and the salt I guess
2) He added an almost obscene amount of water :-)
3) He mixed it into a sticky goop
4) He turned it over on the work top
5) He started stretching and folding
6) You could see the gluten tightening
7) As he kept going the dough became silky smooth
Now, I use a sourdough starter, and I'm making a light brown bread with Italian tipo 00 (probably about 12.7% protein) and a brown "malthouse flour" at about 12.3% so things are a little different, but I tried to stick to the above method as best as possible. Because of the sourdough I also decided to autolyse the flour first...
This is what I tried...
1) I mixed flour and about 90% water and left it to stand for 1/2 hour
2) I added salt, mixed that in, and then mixed in an amount of levain equal to the original amount of flour
3) It, too, turned into a sticky goop
4) I turned it over on the work top
5) I started .... well, to the best of my limited ability, to stretch and fold.
6) At first you could indeed see the gluten tightening. It seemed like everything was going swimmingly... but then
7) It's almost as if some kind of "glue" starts oozing out of the gloop. Suddenly it's as if, rather than getting smoother, it starts getting stickier again.
And then it all went horribly wrong
'ELP
The end result is still quite acceptable:
I'm just getting extremely frustrated with the fact that I can't seem to get that lovely silky looking dough that I see other people produce almost effortlessly....
Let time do its thing. Put the goop in a bowl or bin and do some stretch and folds in the bin. Then let it sit for a half hour and repeat. Do this for a couple of hours and the dough will still be very wet, but well developed.
You might want to consider the amount of starter you are using. You are using 100% right now, whereas 20% is more par for the course. I do not know the effect of using more.
Thanks for the tip. Maybe I'm just not patient enough.... However, the guy in the video didn't seem to need to leave it sitting for a while; he just went right ahead and did his thing. But, of course, he wasn't using a sourdough starter. It would be interesting to see whether anyone can tell us more about what, if any, difference the use of a sourdough starter and its quantity would have on the process. Maybe you're right, and the amount of levain is just not appropriate for what I'm trying to do.... Anyone?
I used 300g of white Italian tipo 00 flour. I went to that delicatessen again and asked them what flour they are using, and they told me it's a brand called Polselli. They didn't know what percentage protein it has, but I went looking online and I think this particular flour has about 10-11 percent protein in it. It's sold as "pizza flour" so maybe I should look for a better flour...
As a levain I used 60 grams (20%, so) of ripe rye sour. I also added 10 grams of salt, and 230grams of water.
Good news is: the dough was a little easier to handle, and the gluten did develop a bit better. And the resulting bread is quite delicious.
Bad news is: still having stickiness issues. I'm starting to wonder whether the problem is with my HANDS. I'm trying to moisten my hands, I'm trying to dust them with flour, but if I'm lucky I get two folds in and suddenly it sticks to my hands like glue. Eventually I made some progress dusting the dough with a little flour before touching it.
I'm starting to wonder whether tipo 00 flour di grano tenero might actually need lower hydration to get a similar consistency of dough as, say, AP flour.
Since you've mentioned it several times and nobody decided to answer, I am here to discuss Tipo 00 flour. I've only used one 20kg sack of Tipo 00 flour, and it was a while ago.
Tipo 00 flour tends to have a similar protein content as AP or bread flour, but a much finer mill. This means practically that you indeed will need more flour to get the same consistency, i.e. a LOWER hydration level than you would shoot for with American flours, just as you have suspected.
I used to make bread with 75% hydration. After about 6 months, I upped it to 85+% with no problems, no variations in technique. So my advice is to tone down the number. With Tipo 00 maybe 70%. Try it until you are comfortable. Then amp up the number to 80 or so.
I will give that a go, so!
I am guessing that you watched Richard Bertinet or someone copying his style. I would also guess that the dough you saw was 100% white AP type flour. Bertinet is a master at that technique....mastery does not come overnight. Also your flours are different and you will get different results.
You do not give your exact recipe which would be helpful and also I wonder how much experience you have making bread. If you are new to bread making I would let the high hydration doughs wait for awhile.
Your bread looks good.
Jeff
Well, that's why I'm here to learn....
Is the technique suitable for a mixture of tipo 00 bread flour and brown wheat flour at all? Or am I mad to even try?
Of course I'm no "master", but I would still hope to be able to achieve something. I'd be happy to take twice as long. I'd be happy if my results were, and remained, a little rough around the edges. But it's this abject failure that's bothering me. Especially since it did look, for a blissful minute or so, like it had actually started coming together.
I gave a good bit of information in my OP, but as this was a bit of an experiment I can't give you every minute detail. I'll try and give you as much as I can again, with a bit of added info:
My levain was built up from my Monster Raving Loony Starter from Wednesday evening, so it had a good feed on Wed. evening, a big feed on Thursday morning and another good feed on Thursday evening, leaving a fairly dense but not dry levain to the tune of about 300 grams on Friday morning. It's a white levain with exclusively italian tipo 00 bread flour in it at about 10% protein.
The flour itself was 200g Italian tipo 00 bread flour, but this one is a bit stronger, I guess about 12.7 percent protein. I'm not sure of the numbers as I get my flour from a local Italian restaurant / delicatessen, and they give me the flour straight from their own kitchen, in a brown paper bag without any information on it [grin].
In addition to that I add 100g of a brown wheat flour - you can look it up if you want, it's Dove's Farm "Malthouse" brown bread flour. It has a protein content of 12.3 percent.
So a grand total of 300g of fresh flour. Added to that about 260 grams of water, and 10 grams of salt.
Procedure then as described in the OP.
As far as experience goes... I created my Monster Raving Loony Starter back in September 2013, and I've been baking twice a week since. So I would call that maybe one infinitesimal smidgeon above "absolute beginner". But I'm not afraid of a challenge. :-)
Richard Bertinet, when making a (Straight dough) white loaf, works at about 70% hydration - He mixes in a bowl for 3-5 minutes before tipping dough out on to the benchwhere he does the "working" of the dough you admired.
When doing a sour dough, he works at an overall hydration of about 75% - Using a 50% hydration sour starter. His method for mixing the dough is the same as for his straight doughs.
If it is possible for you, I suggest you try mixing by machine - Speed 1 for 2 minutes, then speed 2 for a further 6-7 minutes - this is likely to give you a properly mixed dough not far from Bertinet's efforts.
If you do this and it is a success, you will perhaps contemplate/understand that your skill level, experience, dexterity and technique is, understandably, not quite up to that of a baker such as Bertinet who has been doing it professionally for many years.
Once you have had more practice, you will not believe how much easier it will seem to you - Remember, Bertinet can shape/proove and bake his loaves without the aid of a tin to stop them spreading out - You will be able to do that eventually - As Jeff implies "Zero to hero takes a little time" Most of us had to go through the same learning process
You can do it!
Happy baking,
Brian
Well that's definitely the FIRST big mistake I made. My hydration was close to 90%, so no wonder I was fighting a losing battle.
I don't think my levain was a million miles removed from a 50% hydration. As I explained to Jeff, I kept it fairly dense, though not actually so much so that you'd find it "dry" to the touch.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not looking to achieve perfection straight off the bat. I'd be quite happy with a "valiant attempt" that isn't a total failure. If it takes me twice as long as it would take Mr. Bertinet, I won't complain. If my dough still looks a little rough, I won't be disappointed. But this morning I didn't seem to be able to progress beyond sticky sludge, and that was just painful. And especially I'd like to know whether this sensation I had, during the process, that it at first started tightening up nicely and then it was as if it started getting stickier rather than smoother - whether that was an indication of me doing something fundamentally wrong here.
Just tasted a bit and I'm very happy. The crust is delightfully crispy. The crumb is "melt in your mouth". I love the flavour. So I "got there", or at least I got close. I'm just looking to make the "getting there" less frustrating and painful.
hydration you put it in a pan as you did or call it ciabatta. Your using 100% levain is way, way high. I'm using 20% today. This could be your sticky problem all by itself. Patience and time will develop the gluten without any kneading of any kind at all. You can prove this to yourself by making a 20% levain dough at 75% hydration and just mix it together, No slap and folds no stretch and folds and no kneading, Let it sit on the counter for 4 hours and then put it in the fridge for 20 hours. Take it out and gently shape into a boule cold and let it sit until 90% proof and bake it. It might be the best bread you will make.
With less manipulation fo the dough and more time, the dough takes care of itself and the holes are bigger. I'm getting down to 1 minute of slap and folds 3 times 20-30 minutes apart and then 3 stretch and folds on 20-30 intervals, from the compass points only, just to work in the fruits, seeds and nuts. Then just let it sit out a couple pf hours before shaping and retarding for 24 hours and baking after letting it warm up for an hour and a half. Every time you work the dough the smaller the holes will be.
Happy Baking
Aha! Plenty of great information in that one short post, thanks a million, dabrownman! I will most definitely give that a go at my next attempt.
Regarding the high levain content and your comment "This could be your sticky problem all by itself." - can you expand a little on that? What might a high levain content lead to as opposed to a lower (20% as you mentioned) one? I usually end up using lots of levain simply because I bake only twice a week and it all builds up, and I tend to keep my starter outside the fridge.
Lets see if I understand your formula:
1000 g flour
900 g water
1000 g starter (50% hydration gives 667 g flour and 333 g water.)
So you've got 1667 g flour and 1233 g water, a 74% hydration, not that high. But 40% (667/1667) of your flour is degraded because it's been feeding yeasts and bacteria overnight at room temperature. In fact, if you are just adding flour and water for the refresh, then some of the 1000 g starter is actually several days old. I recommend that you use a very small amount of the mother to make your starter, and toss the rest. And don't forget that your autolyse for your bread starts the enzymes working on the fresh flour, so that 1000 g of flour is not what it used to be either. But I think the degraded flour in the starter is the main problem. I prefer to use about 20% fermented flour as a starter, that is in your case 200 g flour. You would need to add only 300 g of your 50% starter to get that amount. 10% as suggested above would be OK too.
When you retard it in the refrigerator, after a bulk rise of an hour or so, the gluten develops on its own, and the flavor has a chance to develop without the starch being consumed by the yeast. The idea here is a long, slow fermentation with minimum of manipulation. Without the retardation, you would need M. Bertinet's slaps and folds to develop the structure, but you'd miss the sour flavor that would develop in the retardation. And of course this assumes that the flour is not degraded, With lots of old starter you'd get plenty of sour flavor but not much structure.
Good luck; you've gotten some excellent advice from the other posters.
Yes indeed, and your advice sounds great, too. I'm learning a lot from this thread alone.
I refrigerated my starter this time, and per your suggestion used a little bit of it as a "mother" to create a levain to make bread. This time I ended up using 100g of ripe wholemeal rye sour to 350g of white tipo 00 giving me a very lightly brown loaf rather than a "pure" white one.
Hydration approximately 65% which is pretty much the wettest I'm comfortable handling at the moment; at that hydration the dough is just starting to feel soft and silky rather than "tough" as it would have been with an even lower hydration or wet and sticky as it would have been with the higher hydration. I plan to practice and by doing so slowly inch up my hydration levels a little bit as I get more comfortable with it.
As you suggested I put the dough in the fridge for about 20 hours, then took it out, let it rise for about 45 minutes and baked. Sadly the dough had stuck to the container so I had to manhandle it a bit to get it out, probably knocking out a good bit of that lovely air. All the same, I'm happy enough with the result. A big improvement over my efforts so far.
I'm definitely going to try that suggestion you made there. Just a quick question though - what do you mean by "90% proof"? How do you establish such a thing?
With such a high amount of starter the food is easily consumed and quickly too if not refrigerated. The gluten will be damaged easily and you will end up with goo if left too long. The balance it the right amount of food for the right amount of SD levain for the time and temperature you choose to ferment and proof the dough. Here in AZ in the summer when my kitchen is 86 F, I only use 9-10% levain since it ferments and poofs like a thoroughbred an steroids. Cold and long time are your friends when it comes to developing the flavor of SD without it over fermenting or over proofing, If I use 20% levain to over things along faster I don't do a counter bulk ferment at all and just let the dough rise shaped as slowly as it can in the fridge.
Knowing when to put the bread in the oven and timing the oven to be at proper temperature at that time is the hardest part about baking if you ask me. I like to put whit bread in the oven at 85% proof and whole grain ones at 90% When you bake in a tin it is easy . Just fill them half full and when the dough gets to the top of the rim for white bread it is ready and for whole grains fill it a little over half full and let it rise and inch above the rim. Knowing that is 85% to 90% proof in a basket is harder since the bottom is concave and an inch rise in the basket my easily be 85% proof. In other baskets it might be 2".
If you have a lot of excess starter because you don't bake enough - like I did, you should seriously consider a small amount of stiff rye starter and build 3 stage levain over 12 hours from 6-10 grams of starter for each bake every week. I start off with 100 g of 66% hydration starter in the fridge for up to 12 weeks with no maintenance and use a small amount of it to bake with every week. It's the no muss no fuss no maintenance starter that is as easy on the wallet as it is on the baker. The longer it is the fridge the more sour bread it makes.
Hope this helps adn happy baking!
Thanks for the explanation. I haven't quite decided whether I will go for your full "no knead" suggestion of isand66's one in my next attempt, but I do think that whatever I do next, the 20 hours or so in the fridge are essential to moving forward....
Not surprisingly, that worked. Even with a bread with a majority of rye flour based on a rye sour. Delightful. Now I have a starting point from which to hone my technique :-)
Took your advice about keeping a rye starter and building it up over 12 hours before baking. I started off with a lower hydration - roughly about 65% - which left my dough soft and pliable (not "stiff" like it would have been with a lower hydration and certainly not wet and sticky) - see also my comment to leucadian for more details. The photo shows the bread after baking, and it has now cooled down enough to cut it. Nice open crumb, so things are definitely improving here!
I tried using a slightly lower hydration (see the comment I posted today, above), but still had some stickiness issues. Again, a delicious bread so the FLAVOUR is nothing to complain about. Got an opener crumb this time, a few slightly bigger holes but no "caverns" so despite all the pain I'm not making a total balls of it. Adding a little flour during the kneading / folding / whateverItriedinmydesperation did actually make a difference even though I did end up with something a bit more like a ciabatta than a "boule". Tomorrow I'm going to make another "bauernbrot" which is a different story altogether, but the next time I'm trying a white-ish bread I'm going to try your "no knead" dough. I had forgotten about the fridge part in your suggestion above.
taught me how to make edible bread and I still use his slap and fold technique on the majority of doughs that I make. I also combine this with initial mixing using a Kenwood because of the after effects of a stroke and with s&fs in the bowl. I still marvel at how quickly Richard Bertinet turns ingredients into a developed dough and I am nowhere near being able to do that anywhere near as quickly but the slap and fold technique is good up to high 70s% hydration. After that I start to flick lumps of dough around the kitchen :-( .
If you reduce your dough hydration to below 75% and your starter flour percentage to about 20% you should find the Bertinet technique is more successful.
Happy Baking.
Yes, previous comments also hinted at that so I'm definitely adjusting it that way. Thanks!
Most of what's in this thread is way over my head... I'm a beginner & very lazy baker, and mostly just make no-knead breads... :P
One thing that caught my attention was you mentioned about using malted flour? (Your bread looks lovely, BTW). Last week I had a funny problem with my no-knead dough (16-hr of proofing). It was the first time I've used some malt flour. The dough looked perfectly normal (expanded, gluten strands formed, etc) at the 10-12hr mark, but I had to pop out. By the time I was back, it had been maybe 16 or 18 hrs, the dough didn't seem right, like how you described, the gluten structure has collapsed and became a bit wet again. I have made no-knead bread many times, and never had this before... because it was my first time using this flour, I'm thinking if it's something to do with the malted grains...? Maybe there is a smaller tolerance for gluten to break down again. Have you had the same problem with your technique using a different flour?
Today I made a bread that was made with just 300 grams white wheat flour but using 60 grams of rye sour and a 75% hydration, but while it took longer for it to happen, it did eventually reach that "sticky" stage again. No malt flour this time, so that doesn't seem to be it. Maybe the tipo 00 flour I use actually needs less hydration to get a similar consistency of dough?
I start to think that you are overworking the dough to a point where it breaks down again.
I use the french kneading method but adjusted it to how it is easy and will result in a very smooth and elastic dough.
If you go to youtube and search for french kneading you see how it is done BUT you do not need to knead constantly like they do.
I do it in sets of 6 times with 5 minutes rest after each set.
When it is * resting * time I use my dough scraper and scrap the dough in to a tight*ish * ball.
Each set contains * depending on the hydration of the dough * 12-25 slap and folds followed by 5 minute rest.
Lower hydration dough I do about 12 slaps and folds for a set, higher hydration 25 slaps and folds but no more than 25.
Yes, indeed. That's why I think I'll try dabrownman's idea next. If that does work, and the results are better I may then start re-introducing a very light kneading stage along the lines of what you're suggesting here on the next bake, until I get the balance that's right for me. It'll be a month or two yet before I get to see real results, I dare say :-)
Oh it took me a lot of experimenting until I found the technique that worked for me.
You will get there:)
See the comments I posted above, today. I definitely "worked" that dough a lot less. Combine that with the 20 hour fridge fermentation and the results are a big step in the right direction.
Way up there you mentioned that you dusted your hands before flouting them when doing the stretch and folds. Stop using the flour.
Wet hands on wet doughs don't stick. Adding the flour to moist hands makes the glue.
I keep the dough in a bucket and a small bowl if water near it. Dip the hands in water, do the turns. Dip again as needed.
I've actually tried all sorts of permutations: Dusting my hands before touching the dough. Moistening my hands before touching the dough. Leaving my hands dripping wet before touching the dough. Everything I tried resulted in the dough sticking to my hands. I'm starting to think that there are dough destroying enzymes on my hands LOL
Haven't tried the bucket idea though; when trying the wet hands technique I would have to wash off the "glue" under the tap. Which is a pain in the proverbial, so I would tend to keep going as long as possible until the "glue" made effective working impossible. With a bucket nearby I might be able to dip more often and before it gets too bad....
It's not so long - a few months ago - that my experiences were yours. Fortunately I have progressed passed that now and can turn out a loaf without angsting too too much about how it will be. I keep reading and experimenting. After a while I began to realize that there is no single method that works for everyone. You end up developing a technique that works for you. I learned that I had to work specifically with the flour I had and it's properties, which were probably not exactly like the formula I was following. But I still get excited taking a loaf out of the oven and seeing that it performed the way I wanted. Of course sometimes I don't get excited because it didn't :(
I loved that video of Richard Bertinet slapping dough around. But he works specifically with yeast, although I'm sure he works equally well with natural yeast. So I kind of moved on from him and started watching videos of people working specifically with natural levain. And reading the forums here and trying to gain from their experiences - good or bad.
Key for me has been handling the dough a whole lot less than I was. And handling it fingertip light. I also use my machine mixer sporadically now. It's so easy to put everything in a bucket and mix. I love to feel the dough develop by folding at various intervals. I do use flour and I do use water if I need to to handle the dough. But I'm mindful of how much of either. It's a feel that I'm finally learning.
For a complete opposite to what Bertinet does, have a look at Ken Forkish's movie(s) on youTube. http://youtu.be/HoY7CPw0E1s He works with very wet dough and the bucket thing. He's got it down to an art.
Every experience has taught me something. And it's surprising how even the worst bake still beats out store bought bag bread every time.
This is one of my favorite videos.
http://vimeo.com/34325967
Have fun!
See my comments of today. Things are getting better. Still a long way to go, but a LOT better than it was.
I'm starting to get the hang of it!
I totally agree with you Jane Dough, we all will, sooner and later find the best workflow for ourselfs and get to know our Dough.
I watched so many Videos on mixing, kneading , shaping and baking... I got dizzy.
In the end I decided that I just have to work how it is best for me and that was when I had fun baking.
So many different ways , the same with the starting and maintaining of our Starters.
And today it came out really lovely. Delighted with this crumb, and with home made apple jelly from our own apple tree... it just doesn't get better than that!
I'll give that a go one of these days :-)