March 25, 2014 - 1:09am
Combining Tang Zhong method with Artisan Bread in 5 Min
Have anyone tried combining Tang Zhong method with Artisan Bread in 5 Min? I like the crusty outer layer of artisan, but hope that the crumb is softer....and last over the next 2 or 3 days. The bread I baked using the Artisan Bread in 5 min is too chewy for me and by the next day, it become to hard...it is only good for one day..
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I get the impression so far that tangzhong is pretty much just for increasing hydration - at least based on the breads I've made. I know that I have achieved extremely soft breads by fully developing the gluten via intensive mixing and letting rise fully. In tangzhong, I think the added softness comes from water; with intensive mixing, it comes from air.
I admit I have stopped using tangzhong at all because I realise I prefer working with high hydration dough, and because I sometimes ended up with soggy bread.
I'm no expert so someone please correct me if I'm mistaken! I might have screwed up my use of tangzhong too, as I never followed the 65 degree bread doctor recipe exactly.
i do artisian bread with open crumb and have done high hydration doughs upwards of 90% yohann ferrant do nothing bread. this has worked well for me but i wondered if i could combine with tanzong for longer life of bread or end up with a disaster. bread doesn't last a day in my house but was thinking of mailing a loaf to my parents and would it stay fresh enough to get to them ? if i used tanzong. or maybe i would just end up with a soggy mess....?
But I have used it on sourdough artisan bread. I always use it on my sandwich bread, even on pullman / pan de mie loaves. It doesn't increase hydration (no extra liquid is added to the recipe), but it increases moisture retention because some of the recipe liquid is converted to a roux that retains more moisture during baking. It makes a moister, more tender crumb. A tangzhong water roux is really a flavorless pudding. Adding a tanfgzhong roux to bread is like adding pudding to a pudding cake. You end up with a moister crumb.
A tanzhong roux (for those that don't know) is a flour and water roux added to a bread recipe. It is made from the original recipe ingredients, no extra flour or liquids are added to the recipe. 5% of the recipe flour (by weight) is added to liquid (usually water) that is 5 times the weight of that flour. Example: For 500 grams of flour in a recipe; 5% of the flour weight is 25 grams. 5X the 25 grams of flour weight is 125 grams. So for 500 grams of flour, 25 grams of that flour and 125 grams of the recipe water is made into a roux. I mix the 25g of flour in the 125g of water in a Pyrex cup and microwave for about 45 seconds to heat the mixture to 65C (149F). This forms a translucent pudding. This roux/pudding is added to the other recipe liquids and the recipe proceeds as normal from that point. The roux retains moisture during baking, making a lighter, more tender crumb. The moisture retention also extends the shelf life of the loaf by a few days. I find there is a greater effect from white flour than from whole grain with making a tangzhong roux.
Right, retention not hydration. I think my breads at that time were all with approximate amounts as I lacked both weight and volume measures, so my roux was on top of the total amount of flour and water rather than part of it.
A very wet dough also retains moisture well after baking, but I'm not sure if it bakes up equivalent to a tangzhong bread with slightly less hydration?
not a wetter crumb. When I don't add a tangzhong roux to sandwich bread, my family complains about the "rough" bread. I also use it on light wheat (50% whole wheat & 50% bread flour). When making a tangzhong roux for a light wheat, I use the bread flour (at the 5% total recipe flour rate) to make the roux.
Thank you for sharing this. I will try this one day with a light wheat bread.
i've only seen it demonstrated on white sandwhich loaves which i'm not interested in making at all. i have seen others post artisan type breads in which they claim to have used tanzhoung but unfortunately they have not shared details of what they did . to be honest the extra step of the tanzhoung looks like a bit of a pain. i have to fight to get kitchen space with m family as it is so i want to keep my bread prep to a minimum. i think i'll stay with the yohan ferrant do nothing bread which has a 90% hydration and is so easy to make. it comes out very moist and that bread didn't last 24 hours. don't know how long it would survive shipping though. anyone have experience with shipping bread to relatives? i guess you have to overnight it to be safe which is so expensive! any one try anything else? is there a preservative one can add to extend shelf life a bit ? even on a high hydration bread?
Slightly off-topic sorry, but do you think a 65% hydration loaf with some amount of tangzhong and appropriate oven time/temperature could have identical properties to, say, a 75% hydration loaf without tangzhong? That is, the softness and the keeping properties. Or does tangzhong add some mysterious other property that makes the finished loaf keep better and feel softer other than what starting with a higher hydration and adjusting the bake would have given it?
has a more tender crumb than a loaf using a 75% hydration without the tangzhong roux. The gelatinized flour in the tanzhong roux is what makes the difference.
But a high hydration loaf, after baking, also has a lot of gelatinised starches. Like the tangzhong, the water can't get out of the loaf fast enough, unlike tangzhong this is because there is just more of it. How do the gelatinised starches in a tangzhong loaf differ from the gelatinised starches in a not-overbaked high hydration loaf?
Not trying to be contrary, I've been wondering the question for months but didn't know how to phrase it until now...
I have tried both. The Tangzhong method does yield a softer crumb compared to the high hydration method. I guess the best way is to try the tangzhong method personally to see the difference.
I did try tangzhong many times and the reason I am asking is I didn't notice a difference - I didn't really know what I was looking for. I still make water roux regularly for other purposes.
On a different tack, note txfarmer's comment about tangzhong here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/143658#comment-143658.
Her recipes for "shreddably soft" breads have all been a hit in my extended household, which include a few non-bread-heads, a weaning baby and a toddler. You might find those recipes helpful too.
To go back to the original question, I have made an "Artisan bread" that was extremely soft and bouncy on the inside with a delightfully crisp crackly crust. That was a high-ish hydration (around 75%, maybe 78) lean dough kneaded to full windowpane, no tangzhong. Can't comment on keepability - it didn't last in our house.
Thank you Antilope. Yes, I have tried the method, and it definitely has made the bread softer. Now I am getting a bit more 'ambitious'. The Artisan Bread in 5 min allows us to store the wet dough in the refrigerator for up to 2 weeks. However, the tangzhong dough, if not used with bread yet, allows to store in the refrigerator for only 48 hours.
I am wondering, if anyone has tried, if I can add the water roux to my Artisan Bread in 5 min wet dough, and store the combined dough in the refrigerator for up to 2 weeks? The artisan Bread in 5 mins is very convenient as it allows you to have fresh bread quickly anytime in the week once you have prepared the dough. It will be great if adding the water roux would not 'spoil' the Artisan Bread dough....? Have anyone experimented with that? Your contribution will be much appreciated.
...the tangzhong roux is simply a cooked, yeastless, saltless ABi5min dough. I can't think of any reason why a cooked version, stored covered and refrigerated, should go bad any sooner than the raw version would. I'd say give it a try -- if it goes bad, it'll be something you can see and smell, like mold.
hi!!! Did you try mixing the tangzhong with the master recipe 5 minute bread yet? I want to try it but I just want to know if it worked for you or if you had to make certain adjustments? Thanks
I purchased some wheat berries that I was having a difficult time getting my normal rise out of the dough or spring in the oven. I did an 85% extraction taking the 20g of bran and heating with 100g of water from the recipe. Also autolysed the whole wheat flour which I do not normally do. The results were outstanding 2x so far. Crumb very soft and did not effect the crust at all. Now to figure out which of the 2 changes actually made the difference.