SJSD...shape/retard/bake...works like a charm !
David said he had not tried this so I decided to give it a shot. I do it with every SD I bake. I remove from baskets and bake right from refrigerator. It worked fantastically well ! I did 4 loaves as a test one day and then the other 12 the next. I mixed the formula in batches of 4 loaves in my KA for one minute to moisten the flour and transferred them one batch on top of the other to my 13 qt bowl to autolyse. I then did "in the bowl" s and f for 3 turns...this is 6 kilo of dough ! ( I am 5'2" and 115 # :) ) Did 2 s and f on the board. To facilitate handling I changed the formula by 100grams of water/per 4- 500 gram loaves. Such a tiny amount of water per loaf but a huge difference in handling.
Only thing I lack is a crumb shot...hope I can get my son to take a pic as these ALL went to him . Here are some pics to show the process. I preheated the oven on convection at 500 with a shallow pan of lava rocks under the steel plate for 45 min. Loaded 4 loaves on a thin baking sheet and poured in the boiling water to make steam. Have finally got the water figured out so that it is all gone about 9-10 min into bake...I also mist a couple times from a sprayer. I leave the oven at 500 for those first 12 min to make up for any drop in temp. As it happens the oven drops 6 degrees and that is it. Consistently....the steel really holds the temp and also starting with boiling water at 212 into a 500 degree oven doesn't cause as much thermal loss. But LOTS of steam !! I then lower to 460 and finish the bake..internal temp is 210-212.
The loaves sang and cracked like crazy...love the cracks on the crust. The bottoms are gorgeous from the steel...the thin pan makes no difference to the hot steel . OK..enough talk...here are the pics.
s&f in 13 qt bowl x3 q 30 min.- 
ready for 1st s&f on board: 
after 2 s&f's on lightly floured board: 
shaped and ready to rise 1 1/4 hrs before retard: 
puffed up nicely ! : 
whoa...no room in the fridge ! 
slashed and ready to go : 
nice : 
tried 2 different slashes...keep it simple :) 
bagging and ready for delivery !: 
Home ovens are for home baking...even with great convection and a pan of rocks there is nothing that will replace the wonders of a steam injection commercial oven. I think I already knew that LOL ! I sure enjoyed the process. This was the second time in 2 weeks that I have done 16 loaves of SJSD for my son. I learned a LOT !! Will I keep doing it ??? Hm...probably not....only for special occasions. But I sure am grateful that I had David's formula to work from and so many tips from TFL on steaming with a pan of rocks..I have read every post I could find on steaming . Things that were way easier than I thought they would be....s&f in bowl of 6 kilo dough and on the board...piece of cake !! Shaping...by the time I had finished I had really improved my technique..I can look at each loaf and tell you which was the 1st I did and which was the last. Steaming once I got used to the initial BLAST ! So there you have it...for what it is worth. c
Comments
feel like grabbing one now.
Nice baking. That's a lot if bread to make in your home oven!
hope we can see your crumb shot.
Regards
Ian
So, if I understand the procedure you are using, you mix, bulk ferment with S&Fs, shape then retard. Right?
I'd love to see a crumb shot, too.
I wonder if there is any difference in flavor compared to the dough retarded in bulk. I might have to try it myself.
David
David's methods. This is one of my favorite white breads, I do double up the whole grains to increase the flavor. I would be tempted to let the bread sit out for and hour before slashing and baking though. It would still be cold enough to slash easily but the spring and open crumb might be better?
You are on to something. That crust is what we try to get every time but can't :-(
Well done trailrunner and happy baking in mass quantities :-)
Wow - what courage! Twelve loaves at once and they look so good. You have one lucky son.
I texted chef son and he promised to get pics...sigh...when service starts all h5^& breaks loose LOL...so I have daughter-in-law promising to take pics. It is Harvest Open House so she is going and my husband and I are babysitting. I will hold baby hostage if she doesn't get picks !
David yes that is the routine I use for every SD I bake. So far all have been perfect and crumb has been amazing. Since I don't bulk ferment I can't say about the flavor on other SD breads I have done. If I could taste this one I could tell you as I did do the bulk ferment on the first 16...sigh..likely they will have several 100 folks and there won't even be crumbs. Maybe DIL will tuck a piece in her pocket :) Thank you for your compliments...you are the master and inventor so all kudos to you !!
DA...I have't had any problem getting an open crumb on other SD's that are baked right out of the fridge. I haven't tried letting them set for an hour though so who knows..more experiments ! And I could use 1/2 and 1/2 rye starter and see what happens...lots to try .
Yes I have crust down pat...consistent shattering crust...just like the French Bread I grew up on in New Orleans..that is no more...sigh...Thank you for the kind words.
Marie since I usually bake that many Challahs this wasn't too much of a stretch ! It took 3 hrs start to finish to mix,autolyse,s&f's in bowl and on board and shape. Then the next day it was three - 1/2 hour bakes with a bit inbetween to reheat oven from 460 back to 500. So not bad at all. Thanks for your kind words.
Will post pics as soon as I can wrangle them !! c
Amazing cracks you got in the crust! You sure did keep busy with all those loaves baked. Good job. I'd say you hit the mark with these.
John
I did keep busy but as I noted in the one post it really isn't that much more work to make 12 than it is to make 4...just keep churning out the process. I wish I could get pics of crumb...son said they are using them today not last night...so I am waiting...I appreciate your comments ! c
really impressive efforts! In how many batches did you bakes the 16 loaves? How many loaves can your oven fit at ine time? I've never dealt with any dough in excess of 4.5 kg, so i salute you for being such a devoted mother.
-Khalid
I appreciate the nice comments ! I do have a very appreciative son :) I have double ovens so could have used both . I only have one stone and only one pan of rocks so used one oven. Due to the amount of space that a pan of rocks takes up I can only use one rack even though I have 3 racks per oven. So I baked 4 boules per sheet pan at one time. I only rotated them once...the difficulty is getting even baking/color of the loaves due to the steam surge on the front left side of oven where I pour on the water. Also when I mist I am standing on the left and spraying in and over the loaves and therefore the front left gets somewhat more water....seems like it wouldn't make a difference but the subtle things are what DO make a big difference. After 2 different batches of 16 loaves each and baking them all at 4 loaves per pan I can say that nothing surprises me and I know a LOT more than I did before !
I have been baking large amounts of bread and kneading large amounts since the 70's. I have two 13 qt bowls and make double batches of Challah with 14 c flour quite often. Guess my size is deceptive.
I SO enjoy your bakes and comments ! c
And it looks so easy to fit this method into a normal domestic schedule - I will have to try this.
Regarding your change of water content from Dave Snyder's recipe - You say 100gm (More or less than DS?) per batch of 4 loaves - am I right in thinking this equates to a change of 25gm per 500gm loaf ie 8% of the flour weight
My baking stone is 30 x 40 cm and I struggle to fit on more than 2x 500gm boules at one time without them falling off the ends or sides onto the gas flame in my oven.
Am I right in thinking you leave your loaves on the baking sheet, you use for loading, instead of sliding them into direct contact with the stone/steel? Perhaps I should try that if it helps fit more in the oven. What size is your steel plate/oven?
It must be great to lose only 6 degrees in your oven - What kind is it? - I lose about 20-30 degrees every time I open the oven door.
Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Brian
Glad to answer. My ovens are Miele 30" double ovens. They are true convection. I have had them 7 years. My baking steel is 16"x14"..yours is roughly 12 1/2" x 15 1/2 " so smaller than mine. My flat cookie sheets are the same as my stone. I make 500 gram boules and invert the basket onto a piece of parchment paper...I tear the sheets in 1/2 first. I then tear off the extra parchment as it tends to blow up around the loaf when the convection fan is going and keeps the crust from browning. They fit perfectly if I make sure they are at the edges of the sheet. You can see them in the pic.
As far as the formula...for a 4 boule formula I use 620 water,300 levain, 900 AP King Arthur flour, 100 rye flour and 20 grams salt. So the difference is that he originally called for 720 water. I use 100 grams less/4 boules. I didn't change the levain.
It is very easy to fit into the schedule. I mix the levain at 9 PM...let it set out till 9 AM the next day. You can then refrigerate till ready to mix the rest or use then. I use it then and mix all in the mixer for 1 min to make sure all is wet before autolyse...I have found that roughly mixing by hand when doing a large amount results in lumps of dry flour that is very hard to deal with ..my method results in a silky easy to work with dough after autolyse. I autolyse one hour. I do put in my salt with the autolyse...there is no discernible difference and that way with a large amount of dough one is sure the salt is dissolved and mixed thoroughly. I then do the s&f's in the bowl...30 times around/ every 30 min / 3 x. I then do 2 s&f's on the lightly floured board. I then shape immediately and let the loaves grow 50% before I retard...David lets his bulk ferment to 50% and then retards. I remove and bake immediately in the oven on the hot stone. If I am only doing a small number of loaves I use my cast iron pots that are preheated. That is my very very favorite way to bake bread !! It results in a lovely bloom of the loaf and an amazing crust and crumb. There isn't any really good way in a home oven to equal the wonders of a covered bake that first 15 minutes...that is my opinion of course :) Please do try this and post back. If you have a cast iron pot then by all means use it rather than the stone. You will love it if you haven't tried it before. c
My ovens are 30" double Miele ovens 7 years old. I have 3 racks in each but can only bake on one when using the pan of rocks . I have a 16x14 inch steel to bake on and my cookie sheets are also 16x14 inches. Yours are smaller so I can see you would have a problem. Do you have a cast iron pot ? Have you tried your bakes in a pre-heated 500 degree pot ? It is the very very best way to achieve a perfect bake. See David's most recent post. He uses a cast iron pot for his boules.
The formula I have adapted to make four 500 gram boules is as follows... ( this is 100grams of water less than David's 720 grams that he originally called for ) .620 grams water, 300 grams levain, 900 grams AP flour, 100 grams rye flour and 20 grams salt. I use my mixer to get it all mixed well for one minute and then autolyse for one hour ...I do include the salt to be sure it gets mixed into the water well. Large batches are more tricky and that is why I add the salt at the begin and use the mixer for one minute. I then do the series of three s&f's in the bowl and two on the board and then immediately shape and let it rise 50% in the baskets. Then retard approx. 21 hr...you can go longer up to 36 hrs as David has done in the past . I make the levain the night before and let it set 12 hrs and then use it right then or refrigerate till ready to use. It all works. Please ask any questions that you think of. I am no expert but after doing the 2 batches of 16 loaves each I have learned a lot !
I typed a huge answer and hit save and the stupid TFL site has lost it ! Sheesh. I don't have time to retype it ...will do so tomorrow...sorry...c
Beautiful, crackly loaves... Just gorgeous.
I often daydream about baking multiple loaves in a home oven and your post is encouraging, inspirational even. Keep up the great bakes!
Zita
Caroline,
I am extremely grateful for your very clear, and easily understandable, longer explanation and am looking forward to trying this method, early next week, with a batch of Jeffrey Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough with Increased Whole Grain (Page 156 of the 2004 version of his "Bread" book). The recipe looks not unlike Mr Snyder's SJSD but operates at an overall 65% hydration level with which I am more comfortable, having experienced difficulties with 75% hydration in the past.
I will be interested to see if I notice any difference from including salt in the autolyse - I was taught at baking college to always exclude salt from the autolyse stage - and am really looking forward to being able to bake loaves one after another in my small oven, over an extended period of time, without worrying about them over proofing in the fridge.
Thanks again for being so helpful - If I find anything of note in my bake I will post it here.
Brian
Zita I appreciate the comments and look forward to feed back on your baking !
Brian thank you for your positive response. You won't have to worry at all about over proofing in the fridge. In 4 years of using this method with every formula that has never happened. As far as the salt and autolyse I have read numerous reports from other bakers that have done it both ways and can't see any difference at all in the bake. There is quite a bit of documentation out there to prove that there is no slowing of the yeast. I have noted in over 30yrs of baking that the yeast never slows when adding salt to the commercial yeast that I use for my bakes . all the Old Time cookbooks such as Bernard Clayton etc always added the salt initially so I just do it :) If the yeast is good whether it is your own wild yeast or commercial it won't be stopped ! Please do report back. I look forward to your seeing your bakes .c
Inhibition of fermentation is not the reason salt is left out of the autolyse. Remember that the autolyse was "invented" by Professor Calvel for yeasted baguettes, not for sourdough bread. The yeast, as well as the salt, was added after the autolyse. The purpose of the autolyse is to hydrate the flour and get gluten development going without mixing, so as to reduce the amount of machine mixing necessary. This is in the interest of preserving flavor, primarily.
The reason salt is not included in the autolyse is that it competes with the flour for water, and since the purpose of the autolyse is to get water absorbed by the flour, salt would work against this.
Including salt in the autolyse is not exactly a cardinal sin, but you should understand why it is not recommended.
David
I think the final determinant must be "let the dough speak". I have not had good results with adding salt and levain after autolyse....fantastic results with adding all at once to mingle and grow as they will over a one hour period....even 2 hrs on occasion. Environment and ingredients and just plain "it is what it is" play more into it than perhaps some would wish. I am not turning out 100's of loaves nor am I trying to make "one perfect loaf". I have baked many kinds of breads with both commercial yeast and natural levains over several decades. One truth comes clear...the bread will be what it will be ...all I am here for is to aid that process. I appreciate all input. c
Oh .... Bread.
At first I though you were talking about raising children. ;-)
David
" I have not had good results " and ".fantastic results when let to mingle and grow as they will "......you are a treat....I think sometimes, as with bread ,that my interventions have hurt more than helped . I enjoy our conversations...one day we shall have to meet :) c