bought a kenwood chef classic, few questions/issues with sourdough
Hi,
I've decided to cut a few corners with my bread. My family and I go through a sourdough loaf every 3 days 1.7kg loaf. In the interest of saving time I got a mixer and had my first attempt today. Pre-mixer I would mix my ingredients (pre-ferment, flours, water, malt powder, etc) into a good dough ball then let sit for 3hrs. After this I add salt and would hand knead for 15 mins, the bulk proof, then final proof. It has worked well aside from time and mess. So today with the Kenwood I add the ingredients and run on 1 for 1 minute, it made a phenomenal dough ball. I set this aside for a while, then added salt and went to knead it again with the kenwood 5mins. It seemed the dough would only cling to the hook with a chunck at the bottom spinning around. So I'm not so sure I got a good knead. I am looking for any tips. Was the dough too wet, speed too low, etc? The bread is in the over as I type so I'll post a pic when it's ready. I think I may need to adjust the hook so that it is even closer to the bowl but not sure it seems fairly close already. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it eventually, people seem to say the dough should be slapping hard against the side of the bowl but I just couldn't get this at all -however the first mixing it did do this. Thanks!
loaf is out of the oven, seems ok but probably could have risen a tad bit more..
from other Kenwood users. I use a Chef Titaniium and I mix on Minimum speed to mix the ingredients then gradually turn it up to 1 or slightly faster but just a little beyond 1 and never on 2. I've never had the slapping sound on my machine also and because I don't bake in large batches, the dough hook would often miss the dough ball thereby resulting in a longer knead. so I sometimes prefer to knead by hand for a while and then plonk the dough back in the mixing bowl so that the machine doesn't get too hot. It's my first stand mixer so I'm not familiar with the mechanism and when to turn the speed up. I know that the hook can be adjusted but I have no idea whether mine needs adjustment or not. When I see the dough is no longer sticking to the bottom of the bowl as it turns, I assume that the position of the hook is okay.
Kenwood now has a newer model "Cooking" Chef that has a spiral dough hook and I which performs much better than the regular hook. It's the only machine so far that has a spiral hook for home bakers. Unfortunately the spiral hook is exclusive to the Cooking Chef and cannot be purchased as an attachment.
Judy
I my opinion the hook is good for other uses (hard doughs such as egg pasta), but for leavened doughs the paddle has no contendents! There's really no comparison between a dough mixed with the hook and the same dough mixed with the paddle.
This last attachments has a larger surface and forces the dough to slam against the sides of the bowl, thus there's more friction and more energy for the dough. Gluten develops much better and breads rise much more. Try and you'll never look back. I knead at speed 2 all the time.
Note: I have a Kenwood Kmix, not a Chef, but as far as I know the attachments are the same (except for the spiral hook that I don't have).
Wow, this is new to me! The dough hook is the attachment I use most and I would certainly like to make more use of the other attachments if I can. I've only used the paddle once for mixing cake batter. I've never considered using the paddle because it has more open holes and the dough gets stuck in between the crevices whereas it's easier to clear all the dough from the hook with two fingers.
Judy
When you talk about the paddle do you mean the one with the "K" in it? I have the K tool and one that scrapes the bowl. Also, you're saying I should try the paddle to bring the dough together, and after autolyse use the paddle again to knead? How much dough weight is ideal when using the paddle? Thanks! Also, one frustration is I can't seem to find any good videos showing a kenwood chef mixing dough. It would be nice to see it in action so I know exactly what I should be seeing myself.
I wouldn't use the K tool that scrapes the dough (with gum layers on the sides), but the ordinary one
I do everything with the paddle: autolyse and kneading (well, actually I never autolyse other than for some experiments). Knead until the dough remains firmly clinged at the paddle after raising the kneading arm, the dough shouldn't fall down. If the dough looks still ragged detach it from the paddle with wet hands, fold it in hour hands 3-4 times and knead some more.
The ideal weight depends on shape and dimension of the bowl: the more the bottom is narrow the better small amounts will be handled (again: less space leads to more friction and to more energy. Cheap mixers generally have a large bottom, a total disaster!). Generally I feel confortable with doughs ranging from 900 to 1300 grams.
Thanks! I am going to give this a go and report back in a couple days :)
Maybe the paddle would work well for a larger amount of flour, I normally work with approx 500grs of flour or less and even with that, my dough hook keeps falling down into the bowl with the weight of the dough when I lift the mixer. It doesn't seem right to me.
Judy
I experimented with a 500 gram dough tonight and the paddle didn't work, dough stuck to it and just spun around. I then managed to get the dough hook working ok. Well, I've never seen what it's supposed to look like but the dough was slapping against the bowl quite frequently. I suspect when the dough hits the wall the hook spins inside the dough but we can't really see this happening. I'll be baking it tomorrow and will post then.
spinning empty than probably the dough was too stiff. In that case you could have used more water.
The dough must be slapped against the bowl, it's exactly the intended purpose. If it doesn't there's no energy transfer to the dough.
thanks. I did get slapping with the dough hook, you could hear the motor change sound every time it slapped and the machine was shaking a bit when it happened. I'm not sure if it was enough of a slap or not, I can't seem to find any videos of a kenwood chef doing dough.
I do have a Kennwood Chef Classic and I use it a lot when I make my Basic white loaf with yeast, I always use the Dough Hook , aftger all , the Dough Hook is made for Dough, no matter what Dough, it will do the work and it will do it well.
The only reason why I am not using it for my Sourdough Bread is that I do no knead my dough but Stretch and Fold.
The Dough Hook should not fall in the Bowl when you lift the Mixer, I would say that there is something wrong with the Mashine.
Also, when you do Sourdough in the Kennwood, the top of the Mashin in which the Dough Hook is put can get quite warm to hot, depending how long it runs, that can kill the fragile wild yeast.
I had an old Kenwood mixer which was ideal for up to 1Kg of dough - I replaced it (After 20 years use) with a Kenwood Chef Major Titanium model which is great for up to 2Kg of dough. Both models worked/work just fine - I usually use the K beater to do the initial mix/flour hydration for a minute or so then switch to the dough hook for final mixing/kneading (Either immediately, or after Autolyse) most doughs take about 3 minutes on speed 1 then about 5 minutes on speeds 2/3 before they are ready for Bulk fermentation. It is when they are on speed 2 (Or occasionally 3) when I get the slapping action.
When it slaps does the dough come off the hook and then get punched around or is the dough somewhat always around the hook while it's slapping? Thanks!
The dough is somewhat always around the hook while it's slapping, and if I have got the hydration correct it never all comes off the bottom of the bowl either
OK my apologies for only picking this up a year later but I too am using the Kenwood Chef Titanium for mixing and kneading 65% plus sourdoughs. Generally only use the paddle to mix dry ingredients then
i autolyse with the hook and leave for 15 mins
ii add starter and knead for 6 minutes at 1.5 speed setting and rest for 20 to 60 minutes before adding salt
iii final machine kneading lasts at least 6 minutes at 1.5 to 2 speed. The dough tightens up immediately on adding the salt and will slap violently against bowl rocking the machine
iv at the end of the machine kneading I check to ensure it satisfies or is near satisfying the 'window test' and finish off by hand stretching and folding
I would certainly concur with those who recommend turning the speed up to the point where the dough in the final knead is slapping the bowl. In my experience without this phase you will not breakdown the gluten.
Once the salt has been added the dough will tend to form a ball around the dough hook leaving the side of the bowl relatively clean. The dough ball tends to spiral up the hook and then spin off slapping the side of the bowl achieving an efficient knead - indeed it reminds me off the manner in which Bertinet makes brioche and parisienne breads where he slaps it on the worktop for upto 20 minutes.
I have used this technique successfully for several years using Shipton Mill flours ( mixes of nos 4, french, light rye and light spelt) which I buy in bulk. I have experienced slight problems when using sourdough starter with the more commercially available flours, in particular Allinsons extra strong, where I suspect gluten is added to improve protein values. In such situations I found extra flour had to be added to get the dough to bind into a ball.
I normally make a 1 kilo loaf but have recently increased the total mix to 1.2kg without any noticeable effect on the Kenwood Chef. I believe it can be used for mixes upto 1.6kg but I would be cautious as the slapping does tend to move the machine even on these lower weights.
When making Bertinets' parisienne or brioche breads I do all the mixing in the Chef and a full knead but inevitably knead to finish off using the hand slapping technique which Bertinet suggests in order to incorporate air into the enriched dough.
Care needs to be taken in the final stage as the machine does tend to walk across the worktop - indeed mine once fell off and needed to be stripped down so I could unjam the belt drive. Fortunately it worked fine afterwards and needless to say I now keep a close eye on the machine during the final knead!!!
Jak, what determined how long you wait in step 2?