April 29, 2013 - 11:16am
Over fermented dough?
Hi all...
What would be the symptoms of an over fermented final dough? I suspected tearing when moulding, yet I didnt experience that with my bake today, instead my dough only rose so far and then just stopped. Would that suggest over fermented dough, the yeast running out of food? Maybe too much old dough? Too long bulk ferment?
My recipe was for soft brown rolls;
300g white flour
218g "old dough" (wholemeal)
186g water
5.4g salt
21g white fat
10.5g fresh yeast
Dough temperature was 25c, bulk fermented 2 hours.
Any advice will be appreciated.
Matt
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Any chance the yeast was not so fresh?
Was the color of the final rolls light after normal cooking time? That would be an indication of overproofing. Less sugars left to carmalize.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Hi Matt,
My best advice is to use the brown flour in the final dough and stick to a white sponge!
Best wishes
Andy
you dont think too much bulk ferment or too much yeast in the final dough then? Thanks for the advice given.
You mention old dough but it isn't in your recipe. How much did you use and what what was it's hyhdration/
Hi Matt,
I can see the old dough in your formula, but obviously, its make-up is not clear. Hydration would be of interest, as, for a roll dough, I suspect you may be over-hydrating the dough just a bit. Also there is scarcely enough yeast in the formula to do a really good job at raising the rolls. That being the case, 2 hours is a long period of bulk time for rolls.
Best wishes
Andy
Hi Andy,
the old dough is roughly a third of the total flour prefermented. The wholemeal flour in the old dough was hydrated at 72% (15.2 protein) and the white flour in the final dough was at 62%.
As for bulk, I've found that most "lean" doughs I make with 25% prefermented flour need 2 hours minimum, with a dough temperature around about 25c. Should smaller peices of dough require that much bulk?
Matt
Hi Matt,
Roll doughs contain 5 to 7% fat, so they are not lean. You need extra yeast to combat the enrichment, and to provide the extra lift expected in rolls. You therefore have to cut down hydration to counter the softening effect of the fat on the dough.
Brown Rolls:
Old dough: white bread flour 25, fat 1.75, salt 0.45, yeast 1.25 [Iwould also have milk p @ 1.25], plus water 15
White Bread Flour 25
Brown Bread Flour 50
Fat 5.25
salt 1.35
yeast 3.75
[milk p 3.75]
water 49
If you are using lean dough as your pate fermentee, then you need to re-adjust your formula by adding the correct level of enriching ingredients to the final formula, and re-balancing yeast and water to take the effects into account.
Smaller dough pieces will require longer bulk time. You get less dough development mixing small doughs, and the heat loss from the outer surface of the dough is greater, potentially, than the heat gained in the middle of the dough by fermentation. So rheology in small doughs takes longer than large doughs.
Best wishes
Andy
For the recipe you stated, would it not be possible to make the old dough up as it would be in the overall formula? If you kept some dough after bulk fermentation to use as old dough in the next batch, surely that would be a percentage of the overall formula anyway? Sorry, just curious...
Matt
That is what I have done Matt!
A
Haha, maybe I'm reading it different to you then?
This is a how I meant;
Old dough (33.3% preferemented flour) - 70g white flour (70%), 30g wholemeal (30%), 1.8g salt (1.8%), 7g fat (7%), 3.5g Yeast (3.5%), 3.5g Milk P (3.5%), 49g water (49%)
Final dough - 164.8g old dough, 140g white flour (70%), 60g wholemeal flour (30%), 3.6g salt (1.8%), 14g fat (7%), 7g yeast (3.5%), 7g Milk P (3.5%), 98g water (49%)
Does that makes sense?
Matt
Ok Matt,
Your formula is good-to-go...except that hydration should be 62 to 62.5%, not 49%! Also you were originally using a wholemeal dough as pate fermentee, and I advised you to use white. I guess the original thrust of your last question was your desire to use your brown roll dough, so you can use an easy system of re-generation. That's a good idea; one we always used at Village Bakery.
Take care
Andy
You said to reduce the hydration due to higher fat content? 63% is what I'd use normally.
Matt
Hi Matt,
In your original recipe you have your white flour hydrated at 62% and state that your wholemeal dough is hydrated at 72%. That is not equivalent to 63%, otherwise I would not have questioned the hydration in the formula.
If it helps, white roll dough is hydrated 56 - 60%; wholemeal roll dough 64 - 68%. Brown Rolls fall in the middle.
Best wishes
Andy