Hello all. I have a problem in that I don't know if I have created a sourdough starter or something that will kill me. But first I will say this is my second attempt. In the case of my first I discarded the whole thing as it had bad smells. I've since learnt that this is normal and this leads me on to the possible problem I have now. In the case of my first attempt, I had the bad smell and also, at another time, the smell of alcohol.
The starter I am working on this time I have made with Allinson white bread flour only. This is all I have. The flour is UK strong white bread flour. There is so much information on this site that in all honesty, I'm not sure which route to follow. However, this is what I did.
I mixed 1:1 flour water the the next day I discarded half and then mixed 1:1:1, same on the third and forth days. My temperature are low at about 65 degrees. The started has not been in the fridge either. On the fourth day the starter fermented and has done so ever since with the usual drop. Anyway, I continued discarding and working to give or take 1:1:1 and all really seems fine. Having said this, throughout the whole process on this occasion I have not had a bad or alcoholic smell as in the case of my first attempt. On this occasion it has smelt clean throughout the process and if anything similar to emulsion paint.
Have I created a starter or some other bubbling goo. I have added some of the discards into ADY bread and there was not bad taste and I remain alive.
Additional points, it is about 2 weeks old and now stored in the fridge at 3 degree for the past couple of days. If I remove it from the fridge it does start to rise without additional feeding so I put it back into the fridge as I don't need it at the moment.
Ashley
If it doesn't smell bad or it doesn't have visible mold on it, it certainly won't kill you. Sounds like you have build a healthy starter.
Try using it to leaven some breads now. Be sure that before doing so, you leave your starter at room temp for at least 2 days, with regular feedings, to make sure that it can at least double within 4-6 hours. If not, keep feeding it regularly (1-2x per day) at room temp until it does.
Hi Cranbo, thanks for the input. The starter if that's what it is does double within 4-6 hours with no problem and then drops back down after maybe 10 hours. I can't get the heat up as I've got to cut heating costs so it's at max of about 68-70f daytime and lower at night.
Bravo for beginning a starter. The result is actually a mixture of living bacteria and yeasts that, when raised to maturity, create the rise, texture and flavors that sourdough lovers fancy. The profusion of tips is confusing, but you need to understand the concepts behind what you are trying to accomplish.
On this forum there is a favored thread of posts about starters: www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/. This information was provided by Debra Wink, a microbiologist. That sounds a bit scary, but it is really quite approachable.
You already have a starter underway, but I still recommend reading Debra's posts. They will help you understand how to evaluate the health of your starter, how to store it, how to refresh it and so on. Quite a few bakers have even named their starter. You need something to call it when it is bad and praise it when it is good.
Of course you can always go with the high reliability of instant yeast, but most of us are into bread baking as a hobby, so it is part of the game to brag or moan about "our" particular starter.
Keep forging on. Make friends with your starter.
GregS
Thanks Greg. I have read that one but need to re-read so I have a better understanding.
starter. >Ouch!< Sorry, but it sounds like a long autolyse to me. If it only smells like wet flour, it is most likely...well... only wet flour. Still have a chance with it though. Try this test. See how it comes out (and then ...get the starter up to 75°F and add a little unsweetened pineapple or orange juice instead of water when you start feeding it after a couple of days of no feeding.)
A test: take a spoonful of "starter" double the amount with water and add enough flour to make a soft little dough ball. Press into a tall narrow glass, mark the level, cover and place in a warm spot above 75°F for the next 24 hrs. Now mark off every 2 hrs. (Sleep when you have to, mark it when you get up.) What are the results?
Thank you MiniOven for the attention here. It's really appreciated. One problem is the temperature here as I need to keep the heating bills down due to a lack of paid work - self employed. I'm giving your suggestions a try and will update you. I created to small ball of dough and it was round when I started and dropped it into the glass. I then pressed it down so it was flat on the top. Possibly, the dough was a bit too dry as I did not want it to dirty the sides of the narrow glass. Hope that does not make a difference.
In the case of the pineapple juice, is the tinned kind with junks in it okay to use. I've got a half size tin and could use that. Anyway, I again mixed 1:1:1 without pineapple juice this morning at 9am, direct from the fridge. By 11am there was very little rise. At 1pm, about 50% and at 2pm as I write, almost doubled. That's from my marking on a small coffee jar with a non tightened lid. I'll keep you informed and add photos possibly on my next posting update.
One question here. If the flour and water mix does increase in size, is this yeast activity or can it be through something else. I initially thought that once I got to the doubling, I'd cracked it. I just thought that I would taste the mixture and it does indeed have a sour taste. Not bad, but a bit bitter. Still little in the way of smell as possible less of the emulsion paint smell. Are you in the UK. If so, you'll know the smell I mean (perhaps). Not newly painted walls, more like to clean smell after maybe a week.
Ashley
PS I just had a thought. I have one of those heating pads you use under a 1 gallon wine bottle to heat the fermenting wine. Could I possibly us that to help temperature.
But if you are economizing, why not put it in your pocket under a big bulky jumper? Your body heat will keep it nice and warm. Yes, it could rise with only bacteria. That is the point of the test. If it can lift dough or not. I was whiffing at a new starter today and was thinking fresh paint, yes, I could imagine a paint smelling almost this good. Especially if I had never smelled a starter before. If this little ball of dough gets rising, then use it as a starter, don't pitch it.
I think you might be almost there with your starter. Don't rush it. Let it peak and fall before you reduce the size and feed again. If you feed in the morning, you can carry it around all day and then just set it out at night. Then if it fell overnight, reduce and feed in the morning. That gives the starter some warmth for the growing phase to get the yeast numbers up. Do let it exchange air now and again and check on the aromas.
Move the pineapple pieces and juice to a glass so they don't pick up "tinned" tastes and park in the fridge. The juice (and crushed fruit too) will work just fine.
Mini
Hello MiniOven, what a sweet idea with the body warmer. What I'm using is a little large. I tried the heating pad today and thought that the bottom of the glass jar may get a bit too warm for the yeast I'm trying to create. I put a thermometer on it also and it was upto about 90 degrees. Tomorrow I'll try with a baking rack over the pad so there is not direct contact and cover the whole thing with something to keep the heat in. Thanks for the tip about the pineapple also. Again tomorrow I'll do that.
So today what I did was 2 experiments.
Left Jar
Experiment 1) I removed the starter from the fridge and took a small portion and mixed at 1:1:1. No pineapple juice here. I did this at 9am and the room temperature was at about 68 degrees. Fridge is at 3.
9am start. 1:1:1 in small coffee jar. Bottom marker at 25mm
11am rise to about 28mm
1pm rise to about 40mm
3pm rise to about 50mm so I would say about double as the jar is slightly rounded on the base. This time as the peak I would say (6 hours).
5pm dropped about 3mm
7pm dropped another 8mm.
It's now 7.30 pm as I write.
Right Cup -----
Experiment 2 as per your instructions but no pineapple juice.
1pm took 1 spoon of starter and one of water and added flour as you instructed. I create a ball that was soft and dropped this into glass cup. Initial starter level was at about 50mm - first marker as in the picture. Pressed it down a bit as you said.
3pm rise of about 8mm
5pm rise of about double - this is 4 hours from start.
7pm rise about 10mm and I would say this is about 2.25 x initial volume.
At about the time of this second experiment I moved both samples to be near a radiator and kept a thermometer near to the samples. Temperature is five or take 74 degree.
I shall continue monitoring both starters. Each of them is covered and I have removed the loose fitting lids a few times to sniff them.
Pity I can't send a sample smell where in the case of exp. 2, there is almost none. Could any of this smell issue be due to me using white bread flour?
I'm goint to move the pineapple as instructed now. Are you okay with the metric I've used here?
Thanks for the help here.
You just might have to eat the pineapple. Looking real good! How exciting! Important is to let them fall a little after peaking before feeding. They are both working just fine. All they need is a little warmth to get going, good sign and very normal. So when you make a loaf, you do have to keep it warm to prove. I love metric! I think you should try your starter.
Left starter rises and starts to fall around 8 hrs, under 12 hrs with a 1:1:1 feeding. Great! Perfect!
The test shows it would take about 4 hours for your dough to double using a recipe like a 1-2-3 sourdough (lets call it a bulk rise) and then a proving would be done for another two hours. (That is if we divided it into two rises. With sourdough much folding goes on in the first part of the dough rising and this little test can help you guess with that first sourdough only loaf. So, roughly it looks like you have a pattern of mixing up your dough, and then in about two hours, you can start with the first stretch and fold to build nice dough shape, continuing on with 30 or 45 minute folding intervals into the next two or three hours, then give the dough a final shape and rise before baking. Take your timing from the dough but it is nice to have some reference points. :) Wouldn't smell-o-vision be fun?
Taking into consideration that I'm new to all this, I'm having just a little difficulty in understanding your final paragraph in relation to times and how they are predicted. I think you wrote about this somewhere else. Could you provide the link please. Also, with my starter being 100% hydration, does a 1-2-3 sourdoug result in 71.15% hydration. I'm considering, are my calculations correct here. I've been to 70% so far with ADY. Before that I was at 65% and did a 5% jump and was struggling. Great for learning stretch and fold. Nice loaf though.
This is all very funny as baking bread was supposed to be a money saving exercise and now it's a hobby I suspect may become an obsession. I had no idea it could be so much challenging fun.
Finally, it dawned on me moments ago, you had me create a mini loaf as a test. Or so I think anyway.
Many thanks Mini
Ashley
Hi Ashley,
To verify your 1-2-3 hydration calculation
Totalling the water and flour in the recipe, 250g water / 350g flour = 71.4% hydration
Ta Cranbo, I'm slowly getting there. Not sure where my 71.14 came from. Need new glasses maybe.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3064/maintaining-100-hydration-white-flour-starter
It is well written and easy to understand.
About the 1-2-3 bread, you can easily change the hydration to which ever amount you prefer, just hold back some of the water while mixing. I find that with sourdough I like a slightly drier target dough when first mixing it up because as sourdough fermentation progresses the dough gets softer or wetter with time. Play around and use the consistency you like.
Again, Many thanks Mini. The link I've read now and provides me with a better understand. But, oh, so many questions still remain. Having said this. What fun this is.
Ashley
To get to your Q:
Yes. It is important to stick to a schedule or a predictable maintenance and not do too much switching around or skipping days while the starter culture is being set (the first few weeks after becoming alive.) When the starter is young, you are naturally selecting the yeasts that you prefer by the way you maintain it narrowing the field of many yeast varieties that have a chance at reproducing in your starter. Sticking to your preferred feeding schedule (later dough rising schedule) is set up in the starter during the second and third week of "life." If you eventually want two day long rises in your loaf, feed every two days. (This theory assumes that the temperature for fermentation is within reasonable growth parameters, not too cold and not too hot.)
I noticed a Q about feeding 1:1:1 and 1:2:2 on another thread. My opinion on the subject is if you can feed it 1:2:2 and maintain a 12 hour schedule (rise and fall of the starter under 12 hrs) then do it, but do not think that 1:2:2 means feed every 24 hrs. Your starter will suddenly start acting sluggish as you will not be weeding out the slow acting yeasts but encouraging them. Just the opposite is also true, if your starter is peaking in the freaky times of just a few hours and turning into hooch at 6 hrs and you feed them, you are encouraging fast eating yeast. Unless you want to keep up with fast acting yeast, better to let them starve for a while so you are not a slave to the starter, the fast yeast revert to sporing to survive starvation and get washed out with a longer feeding schedule.
A 12 hour feeding with a starter that peaks around 6 to 8 hrs and starts to fall is an average sd starter. Once the starter is "set" and predictable, you can play with hydration and refrigeration and long firm feeds if you so desire. The starter will be much more predictable and give you less problems in the long run.
Being a parent is hard and I really can see how people become attached to their starter (William). Now, in all honesty, I'm not even sure how to think following this later piece of information. As first, I thought that all I did was to mix flour and water and get the thing going and that was it. Now, I'm thinking that theses babies are like real living people and develop a personality of their own based on their upbringing and surroundings. Wow. Given this, I need to turn to my own parents and be lead by the hand. Trouble is, they never had any sourdough children so can't help. Yipee, thanks for the internet and Mini Ovens as now I need more help than I thought.
Probably I need to ask myself how I want my starter to behave and I'm concerned now as in my case, about 2.5 weeks old, I'm setting the pattern for the future and I remain uncertain as to how to mould this to suite myself. So again more questions. Hope nobody gets bored with me.
A 12 hour feeding with a starter that peaks around 6 to 8 hrs and starts to fall is an average sd starter. Once the starter is "set" and predictable, you can play with hydration and refrigeration and long firm feeds if you so desire. The starter will be much more predictable and give you less problems in the long run.
Q: Is there a minimum seed (grams) that I can use in a new starter?
Q: Am I correct in thinking the feed should be every 12 hours when new?
Q: As a beginner, Should I presume 1:1:1 is my best bet?
Q: I now presume that I should NOT put the new starter in the fridge just yet at ANY time!
Q: If I consider at this time, my starter may be unstable, how long should I continue with feeding every 12 hrs before I can feel confident all is well and then refrigerate? Perhaps to this point my routine has not been ideal.
Q: Is what I'm doing here typical for the NEW home baker making bread once or twice a week.
Q: What would be the best time to dry some of the starter as a backup.
Q: Might this link be good in my education.
I'm sure that I've already been told the answers, but what I don't want to do is misinterpret what I have read so far. Students can be so dense.
Many thanks Mini.
Ashley
You can look thru lots of forums but I believe the minimum inoculation for a stable starter amount is about 10g. For a new starter 20g. For winter conditions and cool room temps... 20g or more. Adjust your feeding ratios for your conditions and watch out for seasonal changes and wild fluctuating room temps that happen in spring and fall. Be aware of your ambient temperatures, drafts sun and shade and how your starter grows best.
Fridge. I just put a brand new one week old baby starter in the fridge until I decide what I want to do with it. I figure I have a few days to decide. I will taste the bread first. I already have a dependable starter sitting in there watching the little twerp. Cooling/refrigeration delays most action that can happen at 23°C. Better cool than not feeding an active starter and letting it starve at warm room temps. If you are leaving your starter for a week or off for the weekend, don't sweat it too much. Park the already fermenting starter in the fridge and take off. Bring it out when you return and let it warm up and continue either letting it ferment or decide if it is far enough along to feed it. Or take a portion and elaborate it for baking and stick the fridge starter back in the fridge. One learns by doing. Try not to think too much right now. I find that for baking once a week, the fridge is the best way to keep the starter or if in winter, moving the starter from warm growing the first hour or two and then to a cooler pantry shelf or room where it won't freeze. Keep it away from the root veggies and dirt.
That's all. Give yourself some time to digest info, re-read and form your own opinions.
Hit the wrong button, reply below.
Thanks for sticking with me on this Mini. It's a funny thing to say but as I've got this far I don't want to undo the progress so far. I see that you spend much time her so I'll follow you guidance the best I can with so many variables controlling what we are doing. I'll be trying the starter for real in a few days and unless a complete disaster, post images of the result, should I not forget. Might even have a go tomorrow as the freezer is freed up a bit now. Can't wait in all honesty. I'll settle down and become more relaxed given time.
Thanks.
Ashley
Here is a continuation of my first attempt at a sourdough bread. Overall, I'm happy that I got a rise and that the bread is edible, though far from great in general quality, crumb texture and flavour.
The result is from 1:2:3 where the starter was 100% hydration all made with white bread flour. I feed the starter and allowed this to peak at about 2 hours. I mixed 450g flour with 300g water by hand and added the salt into the mix at 1.5%. I then added 150g of sd starter followed by ~20g of olive oil. The whole was mixed well. I allowed this to stand for about 25 minutes at which point it dawned on me I forgot the sugar so added 20g of honey and mixed this in with a few stretch and folds. I allowed this to stand for about 40 minutes and again s&f a couple of times. Trying not to be rough with this new to me type dough. Again at about 40 minutes and few s&f's. Again allowed to stand. I suppose the total time for the bulk ferment was about 2 hours.
Next I did another couple of stretch and folds and achieved a good shape. I then placed it into my floured kitchen towel lined kitchen colander and was going to give it another couple of hours for proofing. The rise was far less than expected after 2 hours and it was getting real late in the day so I placed it into a slightly warmed oven. About 30 minutes later, again little additional rise so I though blow it, I bake it now.
On removing the risen loaf from the towelled colander I damaged to loaf top as it stuck to the towel (generally not a problem). Probably due to moisture being drawn out in the oven trying to rise it more. Anyway, I'm having a disaster now but remain determined to proceed. The top slashing ended up another disaster as the load top was now fractured.
The loaf goes into the preheated oven and I did the usual steam bit. Low and behold, I get an oven rise like never before so I'm again pleased with the deformed looking loaf. I baked for my usual time for a ADY loaf and then remove from the oven and tap the base. It sounded hollow but the underside of the load appear undercooked so I put it back into the oven for another 10 minutes and remove follow and allow to cool.
Semi please, this morning I cut the loaf in half and was less than impressed. The crumb feels moist and in particular on the bottom and the crumb is very dense with irregular holes. I don't use a baking stone and this was made on a tray. I'm sure the birds will enjoy a sourdough.
Comments from the experts please. What were my mistakes.
Overall it looks pretty good!
An instant-read thermometer will help check internal loaf temp to ensure it's baked all the way through. For a sourdough, around 210-215F in the center means it's done. I do find my sourdoughs have generally a higher level of moistness than my commercially-leavened loaves.
In terms of timing and checking rise, use the poke test, and watch the dough and not the clock. The dough will dictate when it is ready to bake, whether it's on your schedule (or not!) :) Based on the amount of time for bulk ferment (2 hours) may be too short. Would you say the dough nearly doubled during that time? You may want to let the bulk ferment go longer; likewise, you may also want your final proof to be somewhat longer. That said, you were in the ballpark, because you got nice browning on your top crust, which means fermentation had been basically sufficient. Slightly longer should help with dough texture somewhat.
From the photos it looks like your bottom crust is slightly pale. I don't recall from this thread, but you may want to try nearly the same bake in pot or cast-iron dutch oven, you'll get more even browning, excellent spring, and a really nice crust all around.