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Adjusting to new Bosch Universal -flabby dough

run4bread's picture

Adjusting to new Bosch Universal -flabby dough

I am making Eric Kastel's Rye, Spelt and Flaxseed bread. The dough is really flabby and sticky, as if it were not developed enough. I used my new Bosch Universal to mix the dough. I followedKastel's instructions of 4 minutes at speed 1 and 2 minutes at speed 2. I am thinking that the dough was not well enough developed at that point. Another recipe i tried (Hamelmans VT SD with enhanced whole grain-rye) last weekend took twice as long as speed 2 to get the gluten development. Is this typical for the Bosch, and I should expect that normally?

This recipe had a goal of "partial gluten development" so I stayed with the 2 mins at speed 2. I tried a second round of pre-shaping to little effect and now plan to ignore the yeast and rely on the 210g sf rye levain to keep this rising while I do another round or two of S&F. I welcome suggestions for how to rescue this. All else fails, i will rely on combi pans for structure but I wanted batards.

I made this last weekend with a different goof. Grabbed the VT SD levain instead, so I threw in the rye sour anyway. I assumed the wet dough was due to the wetter starter. The boule in the combi came out fine. The batard became a pancake, but the best tasting pancake. Which is why I wanted to try again! This flavor combo is fantastic!


Maryann279's picture

I'm not familiar with the Bosch mixer, but have a few thoughts.  First, I assume the recipe is from Artisan Breads, by Eric Kastel.  The formula has a high percentage of rye flour in it, which tends to produce wet, sticky doughs that can be challenging to work with, a much different animal from an all-wheat, or mostly wheat, dough.  

In the instructions, Kastel calls for the bread to proof in a bowl or a dough sling.  This says to me that the bread doesn't have the strength to maintain its shape in a batard form, as you discovered!  There is nothing wrong with this - that's just how this type of dough works.  One thing I would suggest is springing for a linen-cloth lined basket (available from specialty stores - you can email me for sources).  I prefer to use the type of linen professionals used, as it works out better for me than dishtowels or napkins (even linen ones).  The loaf proofs upside-down; just before baking, you flip the basket onto the peel, score and immediately put it into the oven.

Rye contains far less gluten than wheat and the gluten structure is more delicate, hence the shorter mixing and proofing time.  Therefore, I wouldn't recommend more shaping and folding.  Don't ignore the yeast!  You need it to make a lighter loaf.

As for your mixer question, each type of mixer varies in the number of revolutions per minute it performs, which affects the amount of time it requires to develop gluten.  I would suggest taking a recipe you have made a lot and try it out in the Bosch.  Note how long it takes to develop the dough, and use this information to adjust mixing times for other doughs.  Hope this helps!


dwcoleman's picture

I've mentioned it before but Bosch's are terrible for developing gluten.  I stick to my 20 quart spiral mixer.

You could try buying the stainless bowl without the centre column, i've heard people have good results.


run4bread's picture

The stainless bowl with out the center psto is aopealing. Trying to remove the dough or scrape down the sides with the center post is challenging.

I appreciate the comments assuring me that this can be expected to be a wet dough. The photo in the book shhows a batard, but with the dough I had today, it seems impossible. Sounds like I should treat this more like a Tartine dough.

I searched this site and found other references to this machine being slower to deveop gluten -as I found with the VT SD. I did not see a formula or rule of thumb; the advice is practice and figure it out from your own experience. If anyone has figured out the Bosch mixing time for this recipe, I would love to know.

I also appreciate the recommendation for professional type basket liners. It will go on my wish list!

We will see how the loaves turn out . The moment of truth approaches. The oven is ready now.

winstonsmith's picture

I'm going to try this bread in a week or two. I'll most likely add a couple minutes.

Not knowing the dough, might using the cookie paddles work? I know some have used those for high hydration breads.

fotomat1's picture

Stainless bowl at speed 2 is what I find to work perfectly in all cases. I too went through the plastic bowl with the center column pain and purchased the stainless and have not had a single problem. It was disappointing after dropping 500 on the mixer to have the additional expense but it does work well and overall results have actually been better than my trusty Kitchen Aid. The Kitchen Aid was always heating up with heavier rye loaves and this is not a problem with the Bosch. Adding ingedients with no obstructions from the top,the built in cover for autolyse and suction cup feet to prohibit travel makes for a much better experience. Found it to be cheaper in price on Amazon Market Place but Pleasant Hill stock and ships and has a blurb on their website about adding bumpers to the bottom to keep it rock steady. Good Luck!

Donna322's picture

Where the SS bowl is bigger are you still able to do batches of say 700 to 1000g of flour without issue? I hate that center post also!

fotomat1's picture

Not a problem at all....from a single loaf to 5 loaves of rye without a single complaint. My Kitchen Aid couldn't handle the dense stuff but that center post had me so hot I was ready to dump the thing in the trash heap. Wet dough and dry ,climbing that stinkin thing was making me lose my mind. The SS Bowl makes it the dream mixer everyone raves about...the bowl was out of production for a while but they must have heard from so many people its back!! I still use the plastic bowl for a lot of things but having the stainless makes all the difference with bread and I am fairly certain I too learned of its usefullness right here on the Fresh Loaf....thanks to them as well!!