June 16, 2012 - 2:16pm
Can I skip the "salt waiting step" for Tartine Country Bread?
Hi,
What would happen if I added the salt and extra water in with the first mix of the Tartine Country Bread?
I do agree with Autolyse! but can't it all happen at the same time? What is the purpose of mixing the flour, water, leaven and waiting 40 minutes then adding the salt and remaining water?
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Typically, autolyse involves leaving out the leavening (yeast, preferment or levain) and salt, while allowing the flour and all the water to meld together for anywhere from 20 minutes to 1 hour. The product of this is gluten formation, without the baker having to do anything. Since both leavening and salt compete with flour for hydration, they are kept out until the final mix, after the period of autolyse. The other benefit is that the final mixing time is substantially reduced.
As for your specific recipe, I can't comment as I don't have that book.
Larry
Yes Larry that's what I don't get...............I am not supposed to leave out the leaven, just the salt and 50 grams of water for 20 to 40 minutes, then add the 20grams of salt and 50 grams of water to start the bulk fermentation.
What do you think would happen if I mixed everything together at the same time and just let the bulk fermentation start right then?
You should certainly be able to forego the autolyse. It will result in slightly longer mix times, but otherwise is doable.
Larry
This reminds me of the question "Can I microwave my cat to dry her after bathing?". The answer is, of course, yes. However, you probably won't be as pleased with the outcome as you would have had you used a towel. In this case, you will not allow the flour to fully hydrate and begin gluten development without, as Wally noted, inhibition of said process by salt and levain. But sure, you can skip it and just know that your final product might not be as pleasing as Robertson's process is capable of. You may still love it (probably will -- bread baking is ridiculously forgiving).
If I remember correctly (I think I'm trying to forget Robertson's method -- too many nightmares), Chad says to leave out only the salt and 50 ml of H2O, but the levain is already incorporated. Autolyse with or without levain seems to vary from recipe to recipe and I don't know what Clavel actually recommends. Queensland Phil (PIPS) pointed out in a reply to one of my queries that he left the levain out his lovely Tarlee miche during autolyse because he didn't want to start bulk fermentation that early. So that's a consideration too.
All that being, autolyse's paltry 30-60 minutes is such a small fraction of the whole process that it's not where'd I'd look to nip and tuck if I was trying to work the process around competing demands for my time.
Tom
Only flour and water should be used in the autolyse. Starter, salt, and other ingredients are added after the rest period [30 minutes to 1 hour].
Adding the starter before autolyse only increases acidity in the dough inhibiting pro-gluten forming enzymatic activity. Adding the salt before autolyze only makes the gluten tougher and less stretchable.
Wild-Yeast
is one I have found to be demonstrably true. But this toughening and reduction in stretch is a very useful attribute - if used at the right stage of gluten development, of course. The benefits become very apparent with very high hydration doughs, in particular.
For adding salt only after you've worked the dough sufficiently to achieve a moderately developed gluten structure - full of gorgeous stretch and give - will immediately tighten the dough but also make it more elastic - i.e. it pings back (unscientific expression - but hope you'll get my drift) - which helps it hold its shape. The dough becomes instantly more manageable, somehow. And by this time, the yeast has already had a free run to get into top gear.
All at Sea
You are correct about true autolyse only using water and flour, but usually a wet preferment is included in the autolyse. Salt inhibits yeast, thus slows fermentation, but it actually assists in giving gluten strands more elasticity, thus gives greater extensibility to the dough.
Flour needs hydration to form gluten -allowing a rest in a neutral pH is what's important. Adding preferment is a personal choice.
This is from Wayne Glissen's, Professional Baking Fourth Editon by Wayne Glissen and Le Cordon Bleu Academie D' Art Culinaire De Paris, page 89;
It works well and saves energy by not having to prolong mixing without effect.
Wild-Yeast
Great queation and really great responces. I did learn more about what I do. Thanks all Patrick from Modesto
I kind of liked Toad's response above, we must have a similar sense of humour (I do not recommend microwaving cats by the way).
I believe that stiff preferments are best left out of the autolyse - They compete with the flour for the water in the autolyse.
If your preferment (The DNA of your bread) has a high % of water then it is probably better off in the autolyse to assist with the hydration of the flour.
Try it both ways, and see if you notice any difference!
Be interested to hear what you do.
Brian
So I think that adding the salt early with the effects that Wild-Yeast mentions will only serve to slow down fermentation in different ways than what the recipe intended. If you stick to the temperatures of the recipe, the rise times will be longer than those stated.
Mini
I also did a overnight bulk fermentation for 10 hours.
What do you guys think about this loaf?
:)
It tasted good! Had a bit of tang to it.
(Not sure how else to describe the taste)
A few months back, I stopped autolysing my Tarine country loaves as well. With a side-by-side bake, there might be a difference, but baking on the weekends it's not enough for me to discern.
Your crumb looks great!.........nice job.
Do you do the turns or let it sit overnight for bulk fermentation?
Thank you.
I stretch and folds over 3-4 hour bulk ferment. But with the room temps I have, I proof overnight.
btw, I like the scoring on your bread. Looks so masculine.
Thanks.
When you say a "side by side comparison you can see the difference" what do you mean specifically, what differences?