Underbaked or underprooved
Hello.
I have been making bread for a couple of years now and have been slowly getting better (with much help from the fresh loaf forums).
However, I am always getting the same problem which is slighty gummy crumb. If you slice open the bread and poke the crumb it feels slightly firm, almost slightly rubbery as if all the liquid has not fully evaporated. I want to have bread that you can really tear and the crumb will come away in strips like a french stick but mine is more likely to come away in chunks like a cake.
I have read many pieces of advice on this issue and I suspect I am underbaking my bread. I recently did a one day bread course at a professional bakery which helped to confirm my techniques are all fine (mixing, kneading, rising etc) but I am obviously doing something wrong.
The recipe I am using for the basic white loaf is 500 strong white flour, 4g instant yeat, 7g salt and 325g water.
But before you blame the recipe - the problem exists on ANY bread I make. And I have tried a few different recipes in my time.
The bakery showed us their way of checking to see if the dough is ready to bake by poking the dough quite hard and seeing if the indentation remains. If it does, it's ready to go in. I know some people like to see the dent come back out slightly, that's fine too, I've tried that too.
I have a baking stone and this recipe says bake for 35 - 40 mins at 220 degrees C. I also have an oven thermometer.
Many people suggested I use an instant thermometer to test the temp of the bread inside. I read somewhere that you are looking for about 200F. I have been doing this for the last few times I baked bread - as soon as they hit 200F I take them out. I have since read that people also suggest 205 - 210F. I have not tried this temp yet. I have also tried the thumping test. Sometimes they sound hollow even when they need more time in the oven so I never quite trust this test. Even when I can hear a really resonous thump - the crumb is still not quite right.
My guess is that I am underbaking somehow. Perhaps the oven is too hot so the outside is going brown and crispy but the inside is not done yet? I just don't see how the thump test and a thermometer is still not letting me get it right.
The last loaf I baked was a smaller version of the loaf above. I baked it for 30 mins, checked it, nice hollow sound but I thought I'd play it safe so put it back in oven for another 6 mins. When I got it out the base was starting to overcook slightly but the loaf had a fabulous crust, had a better colour than my other loaves (which were all a bit pale - another nod to underbaking) and tasted great - but still had a slightly firm and rubbery crumb - definitely BETTER but not quite right. Just to add, I try to be very good and wait about an hour before cutting into it. I know early cutting is not good.
Thanks everyone. Any advice warmly welcomed.
if your dough is overproofed? I've read that pale crust may be a result of proofing too long. That might also explain the crumb problem though the type of flour you're using might influence that too. I assume your baking class covered developing the dough with proper kneading and/or stretch and folds but that's yet another possibility.
I'm sure you'll find the answer, don't give up!
Sue
the suggestion to go to 204F, minimally; 200F is too low assuming you have a properly developed gluten structure and it's not overproofed.
Try baking two loaves, take one to 204+F--it will be hard to get much beyond that, BTW--and then bake the other one for 5 minutes longer. It is not easy to overbake a loaf. If the bottom is cooking faster than the top, drop the temperature 20-30F. Bake at high temperature for the first ten to fifteen minutes, then lower the temp and finish it off. You can also raise your rack & stone up a level if the bottom is overcooking.
It is not just a matter of reaching a certain temp, but one of staying there long enough to effect the desired chemical changes and driving off some of the moisture. As long as there is ample moisture within the loaf the temperature will hang around 204-206F (lower if you are well above sea level). It is only when all the water has been driven out that the internal temperature will rise above 212F. Of course, at that point, the loaf would be overcooked. However, that takes a fair bit of energy and time; you've got a pretty wide time window within to work before that happens. If this doesn't solve your problem, it points to other things.
If you are getting good oven spring, your gluten development should be fine.Is your loaf flat or well risen? Is your crumb dense with small or limited air pockets or open with well distributed air pockets? Post a picture if you can; it's worth a thousand words and even more time. My mantra is when in doubt, slight underproofing is better than overproofing.
Your bread should be at room temp before you cut into it.
Peter
Hi Peter
I am learning, so have found your comments useful. Do you think that an underbaked loaf (that hasn't had the water driven out) would result in the crust becoming soft when the loaf cools?
thanks
Hello.
Thank you very much for your comments. As always with bread, it's trial and error. So I will begin with two loaves and alter the baking time etc to really try and see where I am going wrong.
Here is a picture of my last loaf. I proved it in a proving basket which was a little too big and wide for the loaf which is I suspect why it is a little low. As far as I was concerned it was properly risen before it went in the oven.
Maybe the solution could be found there. Tell us more about the flour.
Meanwhile, let's try something. Same 65% hydration recipe only change the way it's mixed. First flour and water, cover and stand 6 - 8 hours overnight ( a soaker to soften any hard bits) and then flatten out and sprinkle with the yeast, roll up and knead it in (you might want to mist the dough lightly while it is flat. knead lightly to mix in the yeast. Give the dough a half hour to rest and relax and then flatten out again to sprinkle with the salt. Roll up and knead lightly or fold a bit to blend. If the dough seems stiff let it rest 10-15 minutes and continue or wet hands to add some moisture. Now continue as before leting the dough bulk rise to just double before deflating and shaping.
Thank you for your comments.
Today I tried again, safe in the knowledge that I have been underbaking my bread. I have reduced the recipe slightly so now I use 300 g flour/180g water/5g salt and 3g instant yeast. I baked my loaf for about 45 mins in total. 10 mins at 220 degrees C and the rest at about 200. I used my thermometer to test the middle of the bread towards the end of baking. At 30 mins baking time it registered 205 degrees F but I put the loaf back in for another ten mins to really make sure it was properly baked. After 45 mins in total I removed it from the oven. The internal temp was about 210F and a nice hollow sound was achieved when thumping it.
I let the bread cool for well over an hour before cutting into it and discovered the same problem. A firm crumb which is ever so slightly rubbery and looks darker as if there is still moisture in there. It doesn't have the light soft squidgy crumb of proper bread. I have achieved the lovely soft crumb once or twice in the past but now it eludes me. This bread looks much the same as the picture I have already posted.
Underbaking now ruled out, I am wondering if I am underproofing but the poke test is telling me it's ready to go. I used to poke the dough and if the indentation stays but comes back a tiny amount then that's right. The bread course I went on said that that is the safe way to test but they poke the dough and if the dent stays completely - then it goes in the oven. This is how we made our bread on the course and it worked beautifully.
The flour I am using is Shipton Mill white bread flour but I have used all sorts of different flours and always get this problem so I don't think it is the ingredients.
One point to note - I also make rolls and the crumb usually turns out better than my loaves. The rolls are springier with a softer (drier) crumb, just like the rolls you would get from a proper baker. The dough is the same for the rolls as the loaf. But something is obviously different as the rolls are much more successful.
Just to clarify my method. I mix and then knead for 10 -15 mins until the dough is like chewing gum and I get a good window pane test result. I lightly shape into a ball and put in bowl covered with cling film. After an hour or so, when I think the dough has roughly doubled I do a test taught to me by the professional bakers - I stick my finger straight into the dough so my whole finger has disappeared. I take it out and if the hole stays open, it's ready. If it starts to close, I give it a bit longer.
I now do a couple of folds after gently pressing the gas out to build up some back-bone and then shape into a round. This goes seam side up into a floured couche, covered and let to rise in an oven (turned off, obviously). When I think it is ready I do the final poke test as detailed above. Poke the dough, if indentation stays - it goes in the oven on an oven stone, seam side down, a couple of slashes across the top. I get a little oven spring but nothing amazing. The oven is at 220c checked with an oven thermometer. Sometimes I don't touch the temp for the whole baking period, sometimes I'll bring it down to 200c for the last 30 mins or so. I take internal temp (200+), knock on the bottom to be sure and then leave to cool for an hour plus. I have got the same slightly firm, slightly rubbery crumb for many different recipes with slightly different hydrations and different flours which is what makes me think it is a technique problem and not an ingredients problem. The other thing I notice is that my loaves don't usually go a nice golden brown. They are on the paler side, even though they have been in the oven for the proper time at the proper temp.
What I find so frustrating is that the plain white bread I made on the bread course was really good and we did exactly as I am now doing at home. I am even using the same flour and the same receipe! The only difference I can think of is the oven, but the bakery oven was just big, it had no fancy steam injection or anything else that would alter the baking.
Mini Oven - thank you for your suggestion. I may need to try your method. I am only reluctant to change what I do as I know as I have had success in the past with the method decribed above.
I have looked into the problem with the crumb and most sites say a rubbery or firmer crumb could be because of under-proofing. I don't know what else it could be. I saw a suggestion on this forum saying to make rolls and bake them at different proofing stages one after the other to see the different results. This might be useful. It is very disheartening to bake loaf after loaf of sub standard bread not only because of the time it all takes but also because it is a simple white loaf that many people get great results from and here am I with a few different baking books, doing my research on the internet and even having a day bread course at a professional bakery and I still can't do it!
Many apologies for the long rant. It is now bed time and wanted to get this all off my chest!!
All this says overproofed.
Overproofing results in a denser crum. Your pictures look overproofed, too; the bread has a poor aspect ratio ;) for a 65% hydration formula: flat & wide instead of symmetrical and domed.
I suggest try baking a loaf when you still have a little spring in the poke test: the dough comes back 3/4ish of the way after poking; not to fast, not to slow--kind of like after having a quick yawn and a stretch.
There may be some fine tuning beyond this, of course, but I would be focusing on getting the proof right based on these pics and info.
I think your poke test might be the problem...
Try poking not so deep and with two fingers together, then you also want to feel just a little resistance. I panic when my indentation stays. That says to me that my rising loaf is too close to deflating.
A pale loaf might also indicate the dough has been fermenting too long.
Try baking it a little sooner and see if that helps. :)
Hello Supperstone,
First of all, I agree that your originasl formula is sound. You do not need to cut back on hydrationas you seemed inclined to do.
Secondly, your loaf, as photographed is flat. Maybe that is to do with the banneton you used, as described, but I am not so sure? But I am confused as you mention a "gummy crumb", and yet the photos to me betray something looking rather dry. So, let's be straight; you are not under-baking your bread. However, the temperatures you mention are too low.
Additionally, you mention no pre-ferment. I think your dough is under-ripe and therefore lacking in strength.
So, more bulk fermentation; higher initial baking temperature with steam. The formula is spot-on! I can point you to some great bakers in Kent if you are interested in meeting up; they make the real thing, professionally. Drop me a pm if you want to know more.
Best wishes
Andy
...is that you say your rolls, made with the same recipe and technique as your loaves, turn out fine. Do you "poke" your rolls to see if they are fully proved, too? Or do you simply eyeball 'em? How long do they usually require for final proofing? Do you, perhaps, achieve a better gluten skin tension with your rolls than your loaves? Are your oven temps the same for rolls as for loaves?
The key to your disappointment in your loaves, I'm sure, is to be found in the differences in either proofing times and/or shaping technique between the rolls you're happy with and the loaves you ain't.
Like Mini - I try to get dough in the oven before the poke test gives me a permanent, full indentation. The problem with waiting for an indentation that stays indented, is you can't be sure when the dough arrived at this state prior to you poking it. Over-proofing is an insidious, sneaky, under-the-radar, deviously-cunning rat-fink of a problem - all too often, you don't realise it's happened until it's too late.
All at Sea
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Hello everyone and thank you for all your comments. I hadn't checked these forums for a while.
I take on board all your comments, especially about over-proofing.
The long and the short of it is: I now have a part-time job in an artisan bakery so I am learning a lot as well as dealing with very early mornings
I have spoken to the bakers about my problem and all were slightly confused because it could be a number of different problems. They asked me to bake one of these loaves and bring it in so they can have a look and 'diagnose'. In the meantime, one of the bakers gave me a white bread recipe (580 strng white flr, 10g salt, 12 g fresh yeast, 350 water) and told me to take some FRESH yeast home to play with.
I made the loaf yesterday and it's the best bread I have ever made. I was very careful not to overproof. Mixed and kneaded ingredients for 15 mins (was ready in 10 but thought 5 extra wouldn't hurt) Then did bulk fermentation in turned off oven with tray of hot water underneath just steaming. After 45 mins I degassed the dough and folded it in the bowl and put it back in oven (turned off remember) for another 20 mins. Finger hole stayed when pushed all the way into dough so knew the fermentation was done. Next I 'handed up' the dough (degassed into an oblong shape, fold the top towards you and push down and then basically roll the rest towards you like a swiss roll with good pressure throughout to make it firm, Repeat again then I let it rest for 10 mins.
Simply molded into a tight round and put seam up into a proving basket covered with an oiled shower cap. Turned oven on to 220 degrees c with baking stone in. Dough was proved after about 40 mins. Poke test was refilling hole about 25% in a lazy way. Turned loaf onto baking paper sprinkled with semolina, two slashes across top in a cross and straight in oven at 220 for about 30 mins. I got great oven spring, the resulting loaf was a lovely golden brown and crackled madly when I got it out of the oven. I could here it from the other room - my previous breads were much quieter than these. The bread was wonderfully soft with a crisp outside and a lovely flavour. It was like I had popped down to the local bakers - just perfect.
I am not saying it was all because I used fresh yeast - that was obviously never the problem. I think perhaps my method has changed slightly since watching the professionals. My dough just behaved slightly differently from before and I was less impatient overall - giving the dough time to properly do it's thing. Who knows? My next loaf might be dreadful but at least I know I CAN produce a perfect loaf and there is no problem with my oven etc! I'll try and post a picture so you can see the result:
And it appears that you are a quick study. Nothing is quite so helpful as having experienced teachers and the opportunity to apply the lessons immediately and repeatedly, is it? Good for you!
Paul
By jove, I think you've got it. Fresh leavening and proper shaping are always a good thing.