April 23, 2012 - 1:20am
a few rye bread questions
I'm at a second try for a 100% rye bread. While waiting for the rye paste to proof, I have these simple questions, if anyone online can help me.
1. this type of rye bread (100% rye, baked in a pan) could be / must be / better-not be baked on a baking stone?
2. must be baked with steam for the first minutes? or without steam, if you put a lid on the pan?
3. must be covered with aluminium foil (or a lid) the whole baking time?
thank you in advance.
Update: pictures below, added the next day
codruta
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1. this type of rye bread (100% rye, baked in a pan) could be / must be / better-not be baked on a baking stone?
I don't own a stone. I bake on a rack.
2. must be baked with steam for the first minutes? or without steam, if you put a lid on the pan?
If covered no steam is needed, can leave on for half or the entire baking time while oven fan is on. When crust is exposed turn off fan or risk drying out too much.
3. must be covered with aluminium foil (or a lid) the whole baking time?
Yes, but I double the foil and shape it around an empty pan first so there is plenty of space between the dough surface and the foil. Like I wrote above, if the fan is blowing I would keep the loaf covered tightly. If removing the foil or lid, turn off the fan or reduce the temperature or both.
The bread can be baked with rising temperatures to 250°C and after the first 10 minutes turned down 25° to reduce the temperature. A gradually decreasing bake to 200°C (and down to 150°C if desired)
dipping it each time so the paste doesn't stick. The dough may sink by docking about 1 cm. Wait a few minutes and then with a wet hand or spatula smoothen out the dough surface keeping a rounded dome shape.
thank you, mini.
my oven is a simple gas oven, I don't have the option of ventilation. Usually it burns my cakes, because I can't set it on a very low temperature. For sourdough breads (lean doughs) it works fine, the high temperature and a hot baking stone make miracles, but if I remove the baking stone (for this particular case of rye bread) I'm afraid the bread will burn on the bottom.
that's how it looked before proofing (in the meantime I put some coriander on top, and it's almost ready for baking)
I would cover it straight and tight with doubled aluminum foil. No worry about it rising above the pan. You could leave in the stone, easy enough.
Yes, Mini, you're probably right about the dough. It's the first time I use this pan and I didn't knew how much dough will I need. I had 585 g for a pan of ~ 21 x 6 cm. It's in the oven now, wait and see :)
codruta
Though I oiled the pan (maybe not enough) the bread stuck to the pan. What should I do? Should I wait to cool, or try to take it out while is still warm? how will I do that wihout damaging the pan? (when I say "stuck" I really mean it!)
on the other hand, it didn't rise much (half the tin) and I'm a bit dissapointed. :( hope it tastes good, at least... that in case I'll manage to take it out whole, and not tear it to pieces. :((
:) oil? I use butter as it stays in place.
Maybe it wasn't done yet. Shiny pans tend to reflect the heat away from the loaf inside. Did the bake take longer than you expected? When it cool and still stuck, put it inside a plastic bag and check on it tomorrow.
mini, I don't know if it took longer to bake or not, cause I baked it one hour and then I left the pan in the oven, on the baking stone, another 15 min. I can't tell if it's baked or not, cause it's stuck and I don't see a way to make it come out, other way than to tear it completely.
But my problem and concern now is not the bread, nevermind, I'll make another, but my brand new pan!!! It's a gift from a girl from Russia, I waited for it 4 weeks to arrive (from Moscow to Timisoara, there was custom service involved, too) and now I'm worried. I tried to loosen the bread with a knife, but I don't want to force it cause I try to protect the pan.
I'll wait till tomorrow, but i don't think the situation will change, and then I'll sink in water the pan with the bread in it . Hope this will save the pan :(((((
and the pan and work around slowly pressing against the bread until it pops out. Wood won't scratch the pan.
I bake my rye pan bread on a stone, uncovered, un-foiled, un-docked, and with steam. Usually the last 15 minutes or so I take the loaves out of the pans and put them directly on the stone to firm up.
There are lots of ways to do things - try a few a see what works best for you.
Thank you, gabe, seems that covered with foil doesn't work for me. I'll try next time uncovered, with normal steam.
codruta
One solution that I have found for an oven with intense heat that wants to burn bottoms is to leave the stone in the oven and use an insulated sheet (or a double sheet) on a rack, on the stone.
Jeff
Jeff, I do this sometimes when I bake a cake or a enriched dough. I don't know why I didn't thought about it now.
...anyway, my problems are a different matter now, read my comment to mini, above.
thanx for your tips, if I'll rescue my pan, there will be "a next time" soon and I'll put your advice in practice.
codruta
Picture says it all.
The pan is intact, the bread is not, the bottom is burnt, the crumb is damaged (tastes good, but is not for show :)). it does not have flying roof, but flying sides ?! have you ever seen something similar?
Right now, I'm convince the problem is my oven, or to be more precise, the problem is me not knowing to set it.
I want to make this bread again (I have a smoked salmon and goat cheese screaming for rye bread), (1) I'll try to put a rack between the baking stone and the pan, (2) and instead of covering the pan I'll leave it uncover (3) and I'll make steam like I usually do (4) and I'll grease the pan with butter (do I have to put some flour after that, too?)
a very sad codruta
Hi Codruta,
What a nice learning exercise. This is a loaf that you will remember for a long time.
I would follow Mini's great advice and bake this at 160° C. If you keep it tightly covered you will retain steam and moisture and this will not contribute to burning the bread. Put a rack on top of your stone and then put a sheet pan (or cookie sheet) on the rack and put the pan on there.
When I bake rye of this type I put it into the oven at a very high temperature and then immediately turn it down to about 160° C and bake for three hours and fifteen minutes. Your oven seems to be a bit challenging so you may not want to start at a high temperature. I cannot tell without knowing your oven.
Butter the pan very well (I use olive oil as it works better than butter in this case). You can mix a little bit of flour with the butter and then use that to coat the pan as this will help even more to keep it from sticking. When the pan comes out of the oven, let it cool uncovered for about 10 minutes to give the loaf a chance to shrink a bit. Then it will either come out easily or you can gently work the sides loose to get the loaf out. 9 out of 10 of mine come out without any further work. When the loaf is out, wrap it with 3 or 4 towels and let it cool for at least 12 hours.
Happy Baking,
Jeff
Jeff, do I understad well that you leave the pan covered with an aluminim foil all 3 hours of baking? Although my all-rye breads are acceptable there is always space to try other methods and look for some improvement...
Thanks zdenka
Hi Zdenka,
Yes I keep it covered for the entire time, 3 1/4 hours. In addition, I keep steam in the oven the whole time by having a cast iron pan at the bottom of the oven filled with water. This makes for a very humid environment more than an actual steamy one. The loaves are uncovered when they leave the oven and removed from the pans a few minutes later and then wrapped with a few linen towels and left for about 12 hours.
Covering the loaves makes for increased oven spring which, as you know, is critical with 100% rye breads. Keeping them covered makes for a more tender, moist, and seemingly more flavorful loaf. Wrapping them in towels reduces the shrinkage and hardening that takes place as the loaves cool.
I use a matching bread pan to cover the loaves as I found it much easier than making aluminum foil tents. I forget at the moment what the hydration of the dough is but it is almost a pourable batter that I spoon into the oiled pans and then level the tops with a wet spatula. The dough (batter) is just thin enough that I do not have to press it into the pans. I preheat the oven to 500 °F (260°C) and then immediately turn it down to 315°F (158°C) when the bread goes in. The pans are on a doubled sheet pan set on top of the stone.
I trust that all is well with you,
Jeff
Hi Codruta,
This looks very promising.
Does your bread tin have some kind of non-stick surface or is it just plain metal?
I am using plain metal tins (they are a lot cheaper). At first I had issues with sticking,
but since I "seasoned" the tins I haven't had any problems.
Seasoning is a one-off process - oil the tins slightly and then "bake" them at 180C for about 45 minutes. Keep your kitchen well aired - it gets smelly.
The oil will come off when you put the tin through a dishwasher, then you need to season again.
I use butter to grease the seasoned tins.
Best Wishes,
Juergen
Oh dear! Well, I see it did come out of the pan, even in a few pieces! :)
I have a few questions. One concerns your stone, do you have plenty of space around it so that heat can circulate inside the oven? A stone should have at least 2.5 cm space all the way around including a space between the stone and the door. Maybe the stone is too big or too low in the oven and the thermostat is higher causing the stone to over heat during pre-heating preventing the oven flame from reducing. Another thing to try is removing the stone, putting foil in the center of the lower shelf (or a cookie sheet) and baking on the shelf above it. Getting a couple of oven thermometers could tell you more what is going on inside your oven.
I was worried when you talked about an hour-plus bake and seeing how little dough was in the pan, that the loaf bottom burned onto the pan. I tend to use those times for a kilo of dough. I think if you double the amount of dough, it is less apt to burn. I'm sorry I didn't think to mention reducing the baking time.
The crumb looks pretty good where visible. Looks like you can cut off the burnty parts. Flying sides is new to me... I thought it was from banging the loaf around trying to get it out. If you want you can use part of this loaf as altus in the next one. That is if the bread doesn't taste burnt.
I would butter and dust the pan. Dust with flour, nuts, crumbs, seeds or rolled grain. Older pans tend to hold oil to the sides but I bet this new pan, the oil ran down like water on silicone. I fried the bottom of a loaf once in a new pan. If oil sticks to the sides, use it and dust the pan to be on the safe side. When the bread is tipped out, wipe with a paper towel or brush and don't wash with soap. It will soon have a nice patina. Anytime you smell the loaf burning, check on it to find out what's burning.
Back to the oven... Does the flame eventually drop back or reduce when the oven is preheated? Can you tell a difference between the oven settings? Does the flame stay the same or change? When the door is open, can you clearly see the gas burner or is a oven floor between the oven and the burner?
Mini
Mini, thats a lot to think about!
I started this answer yesterday and after I wrote a couple of lines, I had to go out, put the computer to sleep and I lost everything I wrote. So here I am again.
My stone have at least 2,5-3 cm space around (a bit more in front and back).
The oven doesn't have a thermostat.
It is an Electrolux model similar with this one http://www.electrolux.ro/Products/Echipamente_de_gatit/Aragaze/Aragaze/EKG511111X (mine is older, from 2005). It has 4 baking racks and my stone is on the second shelf counting from down to up.
There is a floor between the oven and the burner, but there are a few holes and if I sit in a certain position I can see the flame.
I don't have an oven thermometer.
I usually preheat the oven at the highest level (no.8) for one hour with baking stone inside, make steam (a pan with lava rocks and boiling water), and after 15 min I remove the steam aparatus and set the oven on level 7. That's what I normally do for wheat breads and it works fine.
For 70-80% rye breads I can apply the same method, trying to set the oven on the level no 6, but I have to keep my eyes on the burner, cause it might turn off.
If I try to reduce the flame below no 7 (or 6, in the best case) it shuts down. It happened a lot of times, so I got used to sit in front of the oven and watch the flame, to make sure it's on.
There were only a very few lucky times when I could set the oven on no. 3 or no. 4 (memorable few times, when the cakes didn't burned or the cheesecake didn't crack), but I could never settle it on no. 1 or no.2. But I have to mention, I always preheat it to maximum, and after a while I try to reduce the flame, and I never tried to start from low an increase gradually to a higher level. Am I doing it all wrong?
The flying sides might be from banging. The colour in pictures appears more burnt than it is in reality. It doesn't taste burnt, the crumb is quite delicious, but I can't enjoy it completely, knowing that I failed. This one will be altus for the future bakes.
I don't know what to do about the oven. I never thought it will be the oven the one to blame for my rye failures, I always thought if I fail, it will be because of lack of experience with the rye paste (fermentation time, temperature etc). But in the last months I gathered experience and I'm more confident... and still... what's over 80% rye give me headaches.
:(
need help
codruta
From 2005 is not very old. That you can't use the lower settings is interesting and the flame shouldn't be going out. I'm a little rusty with gas ovens but my gas heating system for my house does need to have the nozzles cleared and cleaned once a year. Granted your oven is not working 24-7 but maybe the nozzles need cleaning, build up of carbon or some such thing. I had a gas stove in Indonesia and it made a big difference whether the stove was geared on LPG bottle gas or line gas. Is there anything in your manual about it? OR trouble shooting on the Electrolux site? All kinds of stuff goes thru my head like gas pressure (bottled or line gas) and I don't know how to advise without talking to a gas professional. Got any gassy friends? Pick up a spring thermometer for your oven, can't cost more than €5.
Meanwhile... you might try pre-heating the stone on 7 (not high) before baking high rye breads. You could also lower the temperature inside the pan by slipping a trivet or metal cooling rack between the pan and the stone. :)
and I no longer dust the pan, but do shape the loaves in a lot (like a whole, whole lot) of whole rye flour. I find it makes the 'dough' (if you can call it that) easier to handle and don't have problems with sticking. That being said, my pans are fairly well seasoned.
For what it's worth, I don't think the crumb looks bad.