Sourdough Flavor

As a matter of fact - I just got my KA Sourdough starter a few days ago in the mail. I wanted to compare all ready made to the one I've nurtured over these past few months. I bought the "fresh" not the powdered. They send you about a tablespoon of the fresh starter and once you start feeding it I gotta tell ya' - this stuff goes like crazy! I have two 1 quart mason jars in the fridge now each half full of a wonderful smelling sourdough starter which I plan to use this week-end. I'll report back how everything tasted once I've baked with it.

 Trish in Omaha

First let me add that pickle juice is not just pickle juice.  The pickles in Europe have been going through a change lately and I'm not happy about it.  There are more dill pickles now and naturally the recipies get confused.  Most recipies asking for pickles were not made with dill pickles.  Good luck finding a pickle in the USA that is not either sweet, dilled, or too salty.  I also cook with non dill-pickle juice, when added to fried onions, just a tablespoon, it takes the bitterness out, goes great in beef dishes.


Now the idea of putting pickle juice into bread is not new. It is as old as using apple vinegar or dried fermented apples and pears (by products of cider pressing).  But the taste is not quite the same as sourdough although not unpleasent.  I suspect that the bakers in Europe can purchase a powdered sourdough to mix into their dough.  It is real sourdough only processed into powder, just like commercial yeast is processed.  Since the demand is greater, it is feasable.  It could be KA is testing the market for a product that is simular.  The word "flavor" does bother me.  It would be good to get some information directly from them.  Mini Oven

But don't put me too high up on a pedestal, the fall might hurt. I have learned many things through other people sharing their thoughts and experiences.  That is why I feel this site is so valuable.  The simplest of things can open whole new worlds.   Mini Oven

I started sourdough baking last year with a recipe that was a hybrid, also using instant yeast. It had very little fermentation time and I was in a hurry to get from flour to bread on the table. As I read comments posted about this recipe most people found the bread to have very little sour taste.  It was suggested to add 2T of vinegar or sour salts from King Arthur.  When I tried the vinegar it provided a sour taste but also inhibited the rise of the yeast. I next used powdered citric acid and thought the results to be about the same.

Since finding The Fresh Loaf and long fermentations I have no problem with the starter providing all the sourdough flavor I want, and I like it tangy!  In my limited experience, flavoring a loaf with acid and/or salty solutions is at the expense of overall quality.

I couldn't have written it better!  

I did see on my Rye flour package a recipe for sourdough bread that calls for 15g of "sourdough extract"  (Sauerteigextrakt) and was thinking, "I wonder if this stuff is deactivated?"  (innert, enert, ehnert, ihnert; that's the word I want but can't seem to spell it, OK, experts, what am I looking for?)  I wonder where I can buy this stuff for an experiment?    Mini Oven


I googled Sauerteigextrakt and came out with a forum in German.  They also write back and forth on + and - of wild vs flavor (flavour).  With time, the wild rules!  Also a note on rye flour and lack of needing kneading, that rye flour is best when mixed quickly to moisten the flour and left to stand with sourdough starter to mature.    http://www.chefkoch.de/forum/2,37,65359/Frage-zu-Sauerteigextrakt.html

"inert" and glad to see you back Mini Oven!

But I'm in Austria.  I think I'll find it at the super market (where I bought the flour) or in the Pharmacy.  I hope it comes in "mini" packages, like 15g or 30g.  

I think I've stuck my finger in some of this stuff about 10 years ago, tasting it in Indonesia.  An Austrian baker friend had given my neighbor a large bundle of ??? packages and we were trying to figure them out.  I wll let you know what I discover.   Mini Oven

I was looking around here and did find mini liquid packages called:  Seitenbacher (name) Natur Sauerteig 75g for 500g flour, ready to use.  The picture on front shows a rather flat loaf.  A sealed liquid pocket with suggested storeroom temp of 22°c  or refrigerate with three recipies on the back that use additional commercial yeast.  Contains: rye grain pellet, water, sourdough culture.  If over 70 % of flour used is rye, use double the amount. Before use raise temp. to 30°c in warm water bath.  Best used before April 2008     More info at:
   http://www.seitenbacher.de/WEB-2004-11-28/Produkte/08%20Brot-backen.htm

The site states that this is real live sourdough and can be propagated but requires proper knowledge to do so, :)  so they recommend you purchase their product when you need more.  :?     Cost: €1.10 for 75g   
Yes, you know me, I will save a spoonful just to see if it's true....Mini Oven

 

Reviving this thread before I stomp my feet and go back to wonderbread (kidding!).

 I want a SOUR bread.  I have tried starters and growing my own (seriously, I think my local flora is not conducive to the sour taste).  I have reviewed techniques here and tried them (temp differences, time differences, retardation, etc).  I have researched and worked and in fact have three separate cultures going on in my fridge.

Now my sourdough bread is actually fairly pleasant and benign....a child's bread with a very smooth, delicate flavor that would be overpowered by anything on top of it, but is almost sweet or yogurty....but without the tang of yogurt.  A great deal of VERY subtle flavor.

However, I want to be able to bake a loaf of bread that is sour enough to require a fireblanket of cool butter in order to eat.  Some meals just call for that (I love pairing specific bread with a specific meal!). Every so often I want a bread that bites back!  I want a bread that says "How DARE you even consider breaking my beautiful golden crust, you peasant you, EN GARDE!" while I bat my eyelashes at said loaf and softly coo "Could someone please pass the butter?".

So, at the risk of being banned for life from a group of VERY talented and obviously expert folk as are here :-) ....is there anything I can do to cheat and make bread TASTE sour?  My justification for even asking is this <smile>:  I can do sourdough bread, but now I am looking for sour FLAVOR (I console myself with the idea that, since this is a flavoring instead of a technique, I am not REALLY cheating....)

Thank you!

There aren't any secrets when it comes to getting a sour taste in bread.

You need to avoid using a soured starter because the sour taste from that starter will be diluted away and it won't raise the bread well.

You need to use a fresh and healthy starter, and do all you can to encourage longer rises.  If your starter is not terribly acidic, you can try feeding it with about 5% whole wheat or rye flour and 95% white for a few times.  This will help restore the balance betwen yeast and bacteria.

Use a small amount of starter to give it more time to work.

Make sure your flour has a good amount of ash in it.  Ash is mineral content, and that boosts sour.  In a pinch, you can add some whole wheat or rye flour to your bread as that will kick up the mineral content.

Play with temperatures.  Some people report that refrigeration will build sour.  Others report higher temps build sour.  I think different strains may react differently, so play with your starter to see what works.

Denser doughs tend to yield a more sour bread.  Try cutting the hydration of your dough.  (Other people report wetter doughs are more sour... again, it may depend on your culture, so experiment.)

Remember that the taste of sourdough bread changes over a few days, so you might find that it is more sour on day 2 or 3 than when fresh.

Hope that helps,

Mike

Hi Atropine, CountryBoy,

FWIW, I made four different breads and had various people order them from least to most sour and wrote blog entry about it.

Bill

Bwraith....interesting experiment! 

Countryboy....yeah, that is my problem...I have TRIED the various timing things, cold and hot things.  I do not even get a HINT of sour.

So I am desperate--can I just add vinegar or something to make it taste more sour?  At least to tide me over until I can crack the code on actual sour? 

TBH, I really think it *IS* my house.  I have read accounts of people sharing starter and the starter changing form.  It seems, also, that some people can get a sour bread, even if they do not want it, and some people cannot get anything sour going, no matter what they try.  There has to be something more going on, and I bet it is environmental (but that is just my guess).  My house is 30 years old, inhabited by all manner of critters (dogs, cats, hamsters) with renters who had come in and out, lots of cool damp conditions in the yard, etc.  There is no way that it is not colonized with something.

BUT since RTWS will not let us move based solely on the potential sour-producing microorganisms in another abode <snort>, I have to go to plan B.....flavorings.

However, if anyone has developed "kick your tonsils on the way down" sour.....could you please tell me EXACTLY how you did that?  How long did it take?  Anything you think was key?  Have you experimented like bwraith and found that it was THIS thing or THAT thing that made the difference?  I would appreciate any help with either "real" sour bread or "flavored" sour bread.

Desperate person here...needs sour bread....lol

Atropine,

I read in some bread blog (I can't remember where) that someone used kefir in their bread recipe to get a tangy bread.  If I can remember correctly (and that is a stretch as I find I must be approaching early senility), this person used to make sourdough with a starter but later found that rather than feeding/keeping a starter, he(she?) found that substituting kefir gave the bread the same sourdough tang.  I think that kefir is a fermened milk product like yogurt, but it is much more sour.

Perhaps worth a try?  I only remembered it because I was hoping to come up with a short-cut (yes, this is heresy) way to get tangy sourdough-like bread without the need for maintaining a starter.

Oh...and probably I would add some rye.  It just seems that the combo of tang and a little rye just somehow works for me.

Mr. Peabody

P.S. Why is your nickname a muscarinic receptor antagonist?  Is your name "Bella"  or maybe "Donna?"

My experience is 100% consistant with what Mike Avery wrote (see above). 

At the risk of surperfluant and repetitive redundancy, if you want more sour taste, what you are saying is you want your dough's bacteria to make more acedic acid. So ... 

1. Feed your starter with rye flour for the last refresh.
2. Make a firm (not liquid) starter.
3. Refrigerate the starter for at least 12 and up to 72 hours in a covered bowl.
4. Make your dough with the starter. Ferment it. Divide your dough and shape your loaves.
5. Refrigerate your loaves, with oiled surfaces and placed in food-safe plastic (bags or wrap), 12-24 hours.
6. Take out of fridge enough ahead of time to warm and proof (2-4 hours).
7. Bake
8. Cool
9. Eat and pucker up.

David

Atropine,

Yeah, I just noticed the name and because I recently lectured on acetylcholine and their receptors to a bunch of undergrads, seeing the name "Atropine" just stood out for me.  The "Bella" and "Donna" remark was from the fact that atropine was originally isolated from the deadly nightshade plant (whose latin name is Atropa belladonna).  The extract was once used in diluted form by certain Italian women to dilate their pupils because they thought it was more...well...alluring.

At least you didn't go by the name "Scopolamine," which is another muscarinic receptor antagonist used for treating motion sickness.

Mr. Peabody

Hello,

I was intrigued about using kefir to sour bread.  I know that some people use it to boost a sourdough starter, but I was interested in whether just adding kefir in a bread recipe will give the bread a nice tang.  Just fair warning, I've been using the "Artisan bread in five min" technique a lot lately because, well I just don't have the time and patience to use more traditional methods.  So, I was wondering whether you can get some of the sourdough-like qualities with kefir.

I just sampled some bread that I made and it definitely has more tang in it than a well-aged master recipe dough. Here is what I used:

1 cup (about 9.3 oz) nonfat kefir (I wanted to keep this dough lean)
2-1/4 cups (18 oz) warm water
1-1/2 Tbsp instant yeast
4 tsp kosher salt
4 cups (20 oz) unbleached AP flour
2 cups (11 oz) bread flour
1/2 cup (2.3 oz) dark rye

I dosed the dough with bread flour because I was concern that the milk products in kefir would overly tenderize the crumb. I also boosted the water to compensate for the bread flour and for the fact that the kefir has some solids in it (it’s not all wet).

I mixed it up as usual and let it sit at room temp for about 3 hrs. Then I put it in the fridge until the next day. Next day, I shaped two 1 lb loaves (let proof for 90 min) and baked as normal. Nice oven spring.

So, the kefir did add a nice tang. It wasn’t overbearing and very pleasant tasting. I’ll let the rest of the dough age in the refrigerator to see if the yeast and the “wee beasties” in the kefir make the bread much more sour. Still, it was a nice addition for a tangier bread (with definite sourdough qualities) — a faux sourdough.  All heresy aside, I know that traditional sourdough recipes will likely make a superior product (and there are many dedicated sourdoughers here).  This isn't to replace those methods, just another option for a sour bread that might stand on its own as a different variant.

The kefir was bought at a grocery store. I know some people make their own and it might be much more sour, but the storebought one worked fine. So, what to do with the rest of the kefir? Well, this morning I diluted 1 part kefir with 2 parts milk and the result is something close to buttermilk. I made “buttermilk” pancakes that were very tasty and light.

I know that there are people who claim all sorts of magical properties of kefir. That wasn’t why I wanted to try this. I only wanted tangier, more sourdough-like bread without the whole constant care and feeding of a sourdough starter. I haven't had time to work out the whole sourdough regime yet (perhaps some day in the future as I'm very impressed by all the traditional sourdoughs that are displayed on this website).  The kefir apparently has a complex mix of microbes (yeasts/bacteria, including some lactobaccilus and acetobacter to give it an assertive sourness).  I don't know how active they will be in the refrigerator, but I am intrigued.

I’ll let you know when I bake off the remaining dough if the extra aging really sours it more.

Mr. Peabody

Let's find out what the wee-beasties can do. 

Mini O

I made sourdough yesterday following the list of ideas given in this thread--did not turn out.

So I did an experiment with different flavorings (had not gotten any kefir though).  I used citric acid, buttermilk and vinegar.  Baked a loaf with each of those.

Results:  the vinegar did not have much of a taste--probably used too little.  The buttermilk had no tang, but a nice flavor.  The CA was totally bland at first then the sour hit right as you were about to swallow.  It was fairly one dimensional. 

SO then I made another loaf with buttermilk AND the CA.  That was VERY pleasant and had the sour I was looking for.  I would like a little more depth of flavor up front, and through the tang so I have to tweak the recipe somewhat.  BUT the entire family (including picky kid) loved it.

So I just need to find something else to round out the flavor so the flavor is blended and harmonious the whole way through.

Hi, Atropine. 

I see many opportunities to improve your sourdough bread.  

First and most important: You have not made sourdough bread, from what you describe. Sourdough is made with a "starter" that is flour and water as a medium for growing a specific (but varying from locale to locale) combination of yeast and bacteria that depend on each other for optimal growth. You are using a "poolish," which will enhance the flavor or your bread, for sure, but will not produce a strong sourdough flavor which comes from the action of lactobacilli.  

So, you need to either make your own sourdough starter or, better yet, in my opinion, get a proven starter from a friend or order one from a reliable source. 

Second, you need to "activate" your starter by taking it out of the refrigerator and feeding it once or twice and letting it grow at room temperature until it doubles and is all bubbly before feeding it again.  

Now, for the last feeding before you use your starter to make your dough, if you want a more sour flavor, feed it with enough flour to make a "firm starter" which is like a dough - you can form it into a ball - not like a stiff batter. Let that firm starter double (4-6 hours) at room temperature, then refrigerate it for at least 12 and up to 72 hours. (24 to 72 hours will increase the acidity compared to 12 hours.) 

The day you are making your bread, take the firm starter out of the refrigerator, cut as much as you are going to be using into pieces about the size of an egg, cover them with plastic wrap, and let them warm up for an hour. Then mix your dough, ferment, divide and shape.  

Again, to get more sour, refrigerate the loaves overnight in an airtight wrap or bag. The day of baking, take the loaves out of the refrigerator and let them proof (rise) to 1.5-2 times their original size (probably abut 4 hours), then bake.  

The effect of adding commercial yeast to your dough is to speed things up. The best flavor is produced through a longer fermentation, so the yeast will give you more predictable rising at the expense of flavor, including sour flavor. 

I haven't given exact quantities of ingredients or techniques for mixing, shaping, baking, etc. Those are available elsewhere on this site. But I hope these procedures clarify what you need to do. 

Keep baking! 

David

Hi, Atropine. 

From what you wrote above, it sounds like your are following sound procedures. That leaves the problem of your "starter." 

Now, in the interest of "full disclosure," I have never personally grown a starter from scratch. The starter I have used for the past 3 years or so is based on one I purchased from King Arthur's Baker's Catalogue. 

The issue of whether local flora take over a starter is not without controversy, but most folks seem to believe this happens. In my experience, the flavor of my sourdough changed (for the worse) after 2 months or so. It got "bland," for lack of a better term. But, after a few more months, it got better again, although not the same as the original flavor exactly. I assume that was due to my local beasties getting established. Since then, it's been pretty predictable, and I have no complaints about its performance (ability to raise dough) or its flavor. 

Now, my first point was that sourdough starter works because a very specific species of yeast and a very specific species of lactobacillus set up harmonious housekeeping. What species you have locally will be different from mine or from any other area. Over time (probably measured in months), local flora should take over your "sourdough" started with commercial yeast, but until and unless this happens you do not - I repeat, do not - have a sourdough starter. The yeast in sourdough is dependent on something that its own local lactobacilli make or digest. 

I once made cucumber pickles from my mother's recipe, which did not use vinegar. My wife, with her degree in microbiology from Berkeley, got all paranoid that I would get botulism without acidification from the vinegar. So, I called the California Cooperative Extension Service and talked to their in-house pickle guru. I was informed that, by definition, I had not made pickles at all. Pickles have to have vinegar. I had made "fermented cucumbers." Well, my fermented cucumbers were just delicious. I don't like "sour pickles." 

The point is, you have not made sourdough bread yet. Splurge on a proven starter from a reliable source. Live through the few months until it adapts (adopts?) to your local flora. Keep feeding and using it. It keeps getting better. 

You will be a happy sourdough baker yet! 

BTW, I've never yet had a problem with mold, but I live in a relatively new house in a dry climate. I can't offer any experience with that particular problem. Maybe some one else will chime in.  

David

I’m writing back to report on the experiment using kefir to the ABin5 method. As I reported before (see the thread above), the bread after only 1 day aging in the refrigerator already had a nice tang to it. Today, I baked the rest of the aging dough (now 5 days in the refrigerator).

The bread is definitely a bit more tangy than the first batch (not in your face tangy, but definitely there and very pleasant). My wife and I both agree that it is also a bit more nuanced in flavor. My guess is that some of the “wee beasties” in the kefir remained active in addition to the bread yeast.

Overall, I really like the effect. Definitely sourdough-like qualities without as much work. Also, I noticed that the first batch of bread had a little better keeping properties (did not stale quite as fast), perhaps due to the bit of acid in the bread.

One other thing that I noticed is that the increase tanginess makes the saltiness of the bread come to the fore a bit. I’ve noticed this with other foods (like when I make hummus, adding in the lemon juice also boosts the salt flavor). So, in my next batches, I may drop the salt a bit more.  The bread also spread sideways more this time, probably because of weakening gluten from the developing acid.

Overall, I like the effect of using kefir this way.  I tasted a bit of it straight and it is much more sour than yogurt or buttermilk.  Again, this is just megamart bought kefir and I found a nonfat one.  I wonder if the lowfat version would tenderize the crumb more.  I have more of the kefir in the refrigerator.  I don't know how long it keeps but it is afterall soured milk.

Mr. Peabody