February 2, 2012 - 9:06pm
High Hydration and Poor Oven Spring
I find the higher the hydration the less oven spring I get. At 60% I find the dough won't rise at all in the oven but at 40% it rises about 2cm.
I'm making just a basic loaf with bread flour, yeast, water and salt. Should this be the case or is there something wrong?
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I am surprised you can get dough at 40% hydration, which is low, very low. Most find the opposite, the more hydration the more the dough stretches in the oven and expands. Something wrong here.
First hydration is the weight of water divided by the weight of flour and then multiply by 100 to get % or move the decimal over two spaces to the right.
That figured, a typical dough with all purpose flour is somewhere between 50% and 60% and starts getting wet around 65% and is very wet as it rises to 70% requiring extra handling. Using bread flour shifts the hydration up the scale starting with around 56% to 65% with wet doughs above 70% and going higher.
One of the main reasons for oven spring (rising in the hot oven) is the formation of bubbles in the dough and the formation of steam expanding those bubbles. First, ya gotta have bubbles and next, enough water in the dough to get steam.
Just after mixing a dough with yeast, the dough has not yet developed any bubbles, but give the yeast time to metabolize the starches in the flour, they will give off CO2 gas into the dough. This causes bubbles to form that get trapped in the gooey dough. The dough rises. Generally we deflate the dough when the volume has increased twice it's size, then we press the gasses out (deflate) because the bubbles are too big (they get bigger in the oven) and we want the dough to be a little bit more uniform and the stretched out gluten tighter.
The bread is just fluffier when we let it rise twice, first in a bulk rise, and later after shaping it into a loaf. Without letting the yeast form gasses, the baked dough will result in a dense hard brick. It is also important to not let the last rise go on too long or it will rise to the point of getting too thin to hold the gasses in the bread. Then it will tear open and collapse on itself either before it goes into the oven or shortly afterward. If the dough is not folded and reshaped to redistribute the gas bubbles, baking this deflated loaf will also result in a brick.
I agree with Mini, something is wrong here.
Share some more about your recipe and your technique; that will help others to troubleshoot.
2cm rise is very little, and even at 60% hydration, you should be able to get good spring.
If you could provide your recipe, formula, that would allow us to see exactly what you are working with and then we can provide some feedback.
Ben
Ok here is the recipe and the process I use for 60% hydration that I have tried which results in no oven spring at all
4 cups bread flour
2.4 cups water (at room temperature)
2 level teaspoons yeast
2 level teaspoons of salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
1. I mix the flour water and yeast together to form a ball of dough
2. I place the ball of dough in a bowl, cover and let sit at room temperature for 7 hours (this is my autolyse. It's long I know but I get a stretchier dough this way)
3. After 7 hours the dough has doubled in size. I place 2 teaspoons of salt and 1/2 teaspoon of sugar on the bench and stretch and fold the dough for 15 minutes. While stretching the folding the dough picks up the salt and sugar off the bench. The dough at this point is soft and stretches quite a bit.
4. After 15 minutes of stretching and folding, I place the dough in a covered bowl and proof until doubles in size, about 1 hour
5. I place the dough in a loaf tin. (The dough would reach about halfway up the tin)
6. I let the dough proof in the tin until doubles in size (about half an hour). After half an hour the dough would be about level with the top of the loaf tin.
7. I spray the dough lightly with water and place in a 220c pre-heated oven with fan on
8. I the spray the walls of the oven with water and close
9. I then spray the dough about five times for the first five minutes (This is to delay the skin from setting too quickly)
10. Bake until golden.
The loaf went into the oven with the dough level with the top of the tin and remained at this level throughout the baking.
Not 60%!
I admire the fact that the US has a stronger baking culture compared to here in the UK but whats with all the cups. Whenever I see a recipe using cups I just look away. So imprecise!
Bakers percentages are based on weight not volume.
100 grams of flour
60 grams / ml (same)
This would be 60%.
4 cups of flour is around 500g
and 2.4 (how would even measure .4, by eye?) cups of water is around 475 grams/ml water.
so hydration is around 95%.
and if I trade out 2.4 cups water for 2 1/4 cups I come out to 100% hydration. Reducing water to 2 cups (each at 238ml) will get it down to 88%. I calculated 135g per cup of flour. What measure British wet and dry cups? Personally, I would go for less than 2 cups of water with that recipe.
The dough must be extremely wet. A 100% or more dough would be rather fragile, I wouldn't let it rise to the edge of the pan and bake it 3/4 full and let the oven do the rest. ... and leave out step 9. Spraying the dough and walls should be enough. I would loose more steam opening the oven door than what I gained spraying it so many times.
I had a feeling I was working out the hydration percentages incorrectly.
I measured my cup which is 225ml. 1 ml of water = 1 gram, so 225ml would weigh 225 grams. So 2.4 cups of water would weigh about 540 grams. The flour would weigh about 500 grams so yeah we're talking somewhere closer to 100% hydration.
I've previously used the same recipe and process as above but using 1.6 cups of water which works out to about 72% hydration which I actually thought was 40% hydration. I got a better oven spring with 1.6 cups of water. It rose about 2cm in the oven but still seems rather poor. The dough at 72% hydration doesn't seem very wet. I could knead it easily rather than having to stretch and fold it. I always thought 72% hydration was quite wet and needed to be stretched and folded.
Something is not adding up!
I get 540g flour to your 1.6 cups of water (225ml cup) that would be 67% and would be a nice dough with bread flour.
225 x 1.6 / 540 = .67 x 100 = 67%
You can measure water quite accurately with a cup as weight on metric system is based on 1g = the weight of 1 cm3 of pure water. But that's about it. For other ingredients, especially something like flour, the weight per cup differs so much depends on how you pack it.
Once you get used to it, you'll find there's no better measurement than metric because it's so logical and accurate. This is an invitation for the brighter side! :)
So to correct my original query, at 60% hydration which was;
600g flour
368g water
The oven spring was poor. Rising about 2cm in the oven.
Can't you get a better estimate with freshly sifted flour?
I got some scales and measured out the ingedients and it worked out to be;
600g flour
368g water
Which is 60%
A this level the dough is quite easy to work with. It doesn't require a stretch and fold. I can just knead it the regular way. It rises very well during the first and second proof, just doesn't rise much in the oven.
I tried a 70% loaf (this time it actually was 70%) with some changes;
600g bread flour
420g water (at room temperature)
2 level teaspoons yeast
2 level teaspoons of salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
1. I mixed the flour water and yeast together to form a ball of dough
2. I placed the ball of dough in a bowl, covered and let sit at room temperature for 7 hours
3. After 7 hours the dough had doubled in size. I placed 2 teaspoons of salt and 1/2 teaspoon of sugar on the bench and stretched and folded the dough for 15 minutes. The dough was soft and easy to stretch and fold. After 15 minutes of stretching and folding I could almost achieve windowpane.
4. After 15 minutes of stretching and folding, I placed the dough in a covered bowl and proofed until it tripled in size, about 2 hours
5. I then placed the dough on the bench and gently folded the dough in thirds turned the dough 90 degrees and then folded in thirds again.
6. I then placed the dough in the loaf tin seam side down and proofed until it doubled in size (about 45 minutes). After 45 minutes the dough was about level with the top of the loaf tin.
7. I sprayed the dough lightly with water and placed it in a 260c (500f) pre-heated oven without fan
8. I then spray the walls of the oven with water and closed
9. Baked at 260c (500f) until golden.
The dough rose 1cm in the oven
I don’t think insufficient gluten development is the problem because the dough was quite stretchy and I could almost achieve windowpane
The yeast was nice and active during proofing, I could get it to triple in size during the first proof
There’s was plenty of water in the dough to create steam within the dough
The dough was nice and soft so it should be easy for the gases and steam to form large bubbles
1cm of oven spring….I don’t get it!
Hello,
Perhaps try only a dding 1/4 to 1/2 tsp of the yeast at the first mixing, and adding the rest of the yeast when you knead. Seven hours is a long time for two tsp. of yeast to be left acting upon the flour -- did you ever notice a beer or alcohol aroma after the seven hours?
Best wishes!
I agree with the prior post - possibly toomuch yeast overall and it is spent by the time you are baking.
Just curious about the type of yeast you are using - instant or dry active yeast ? I am assuming instant but would just like you to confirm.
Your method is a bit unusual - this seven hour autolyze ... where did that technique come from ? I believe you are not seeing much of a spring because your yeast have consumed most of the food by the time you get ready to actually bake. Just for kicks why don't you cut your autolyze step down to a more traditional 30-40 minutes and see what this change does for your loaf. Also, final proof should not be by time or leavel risen in the loaf pan, but on how the dough reacts to your touch (i.e. finger pock test - does not spring back). If you over proof you will not get any oven spring or not much either.
Ben
I think that the oven temperature is too high. Would you try to bake your loaf at 410f for 30 to 35minutes? Or, you can try cold oven or cold start, which bake your loaf from non preheated oven, which will have more oven spring. More detail about the cold oven or cold start is here. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23054/cold-start
resulting in an over-proofed loaf.
You could reduce the yeast as mentioned above or do a 7 hour autolyse leaving out the yeast altogether and then knead 2 tsp. instant yeast in later when you want the dough to rise quickly.
One detail that stands out to me is that the dough takes 7 hours to double. That seems like a very long time. What temperature is the dough and are you watching it the full 7 hours? I also wonder if the dough is rising in a flattish bowl where it is hard to judge if the dough has doubled or even tripled. A higher straight sided bowl with markings is much easier to read. One can even pinch off a small amount of dough and put it into a small tall glass and wait for it to double as an indicator gadget.
The second detail standing out is adding the salt 7 hours later. This has an interesting and often erratic effect on the yeast fermentation -- uncontrolled speed and the dough can behave very differently from one batch to the next with just one degree temperature difference. Salt is used early in a recipe to control the yeast fermentation. Often when one forgets the salt, the dough will become sticky and stringy and gluten degrades quickly because of the run away fermentation. It is easy to over-proof this type of dough. I would try to slow down the fermentation adding the salt in the beginning since you want a long 7 hour fermenting time.
I tried the 70% loaf again with some changes suggested by posters. The changes are;
Result: Bread rose to 2cm above loaf tin. Previously rose to 1cm above loaf tin.
Just as a side note I also tried the above a second but this time I only autolysed for 1 hour instead of 7 which resulted in a 1cm rise in the oven. Some people are a bit confused about the 7 hour autolyse. The reason it's so long is because I seem to get a better oven spring with the long autolyse.
So oven spring was better but I don’t know if it’s should be better than 2cm?
The best way to judge if the dough is proofed enough or not is finger-poking test. Trying to judge from how it looks like is not very accurate, unless you already know how much of a certain type of dough would expand how much in a particular tin when it is proofed perfectly. Finger-poking test doesn't require for you to know these things, because you're testing the condition of dough itself directly. The way to do is....
1) You either wet your finger-tip with water or sprinkle flour where you're going to poke to prevent the finger from sticking to the dough.
2) You poke the finger-tip gently into the dough to the depth of about 1.5 - 2cm/
3) If the hole springs back immediately and closes up, it's not proofed enough yet. So check again after 20 - 30 minutes (depends on how much yeast the dough contains and how high/low the room temperature is) If it doesn't come back at all, you over-proofed it. If over-proofed, there isnt' much you can do, I'm afraid. You load it to the oven as quickly as possible and hope for the best. The right degree of proof is when the dough very slowly comes back and closes up only half-way.
It may take a several practices until you can be sure what you're looking for, but the experience will tell you soon enough. You just try to remember how the dough behaved and what the result was like after that. :)
How do you shape your loaf?
Here is a way that I shape a standardloaf.
http://raisinyeastwater.wordpress.com/2011/12/13/how-to-shape-a-standard-sandwich-loaf/
Walker,
Terms, techniques and preciseness to formulas and technique are crucial to becoming a good baker. One can not make up stuff - but one can experiment if they understand that not all experiments are successful. In my opinion, and mine only, I feel you are in the experimenting state and that you possibly should get some successes under your belt prior to stepping out so boldly. Bread baking is no fun when you don't produce good end results and it sounds like you are not satisfied with your results to date. This forum is full of very knowledgeable and sharing folks that can, and are, extremely helpful and sharing with their knowledge - that, along with the diversity of knowledge and subject matter, is what has kept me an avid participant in TFL for about two years now.
Now with that said I will make just a couple of more comments which I hope you may find helpful. First you are not doing an "autolyse" by definition - a true autolyse is only flour and water and is allowed to be combined from 20 to 60 minutes. Seven hours is something else all together no matter what. Here is a great TFL thread on the topic - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22221/effect-yeast-autolyse - I hope you will check it out. Secondly, when you are doing an experiment, in science or in baking (also a science too) - one normally only changes one variable at a time. When you change "many" variables you aren't able to determine with any accuracy which change actually had what effect.
Your original formula, and more specifically the improved version that uses weights, is a very basic one - the basic ingredients of a simple bread. My advice would be to get a method that is "known" to work successfully and follow it until you have mastered it. That is what we have all had to do to learn the craft. The suggestion of getting a good book is nice, but not totally necessary. This site, and other internet resource, can provide a lot of good information. The only problem with depending totally on internet knowledge is that you need to be able to "filter" out the "mis-information" (e.g. posts or blogs by persons with incomplete or inaccurate knowledge).
Bottom line, we could go on for a while on this thread but I personally don't believe it is very beneficial. I hope you take the advice that I am offering in a positive manner and that you grow in your passion for baking and it will reward you by meeting your expectations.
Good luck,
Ben
BakerBen, I wouldn't really call a bread recipe consisting of flour, water, yeast and salt and autolysed for 1 hour followed by two proofs as "stepping out so boldly"
I wonder if you might try a recipe from a reliable recipe and tried that, and see how it goes.....In your current recipe I would stick to 2 tsp. yeast and see what happens.
Mary Clare
So I tried the same 70% recipe. I reduced the wight of the dough which lumos and mwilson suggested. I also used a smaller loaf tin.
Previously the dough I was baking weighed 1kg (2.2 lbs). I reduced it down to 574 grams (1.2 lbs). This time I have posted pictures of the dough right through to the finished loaf.
Dough after 15 minutes of stretch and fold
Dough at start of first proof
Dough after 1.5 hours of proofing
Dough at the start of second proof
Dough after 1 hour of second proof
Dough after baking
Same result . Really poor oven spring.
Thanks for the pictures. That really helps a lot. Straight away I can tell you have ended up with a weak dough. There's too much hydration for that kind of flour. Gluten network looks great however, some will say too much probably. As long as it feels elastic that's OK. You dough lacks body. Having a dough that you can shape is important, yours looks flabby and bubbly and is flat in the tin - all signs of a weaker dough.
Next step. source a stronger flour. A flour suitable for tin loaves will easily suck up 70% water to give a firm dough.
It certainly makes sense. The dough stretches quite a lot but I wouldn't call it elastic. It's kind of limp.
So I tried again with the same recipe but this time I reduced the hydration to 60%. Exactly the same result as above. Maybe even 60% is too high. Suppose I'll have to try 50%.
while the dough is bulk fermenting. You already know how long the whole thing will take to rise. Try folding a round every 25 -30 minutes. Do it right in the bowl! LINK for Mebake's illustrations
Shift the timing so that you are occupied with more folding and that the dough only rises in the pan about 20 minutes before baking. :)
Ok that sounds good. I'll definitely try that.
see if you can get more heat directly under the loaf. ...move the shelf down a notch. Getting more heat under the loaf might help it spring higher too! :)
On top of all the sensible advices above by mwilson and Mini, I'd say try using stronger flour.
Yes I wish I could use stronger flour but I just can't find any flour stronger that 12.5%.
Where do you live?
I live in Australia
Hi from Brisbane Australia walker8476,
What brand of flour are you using?
Cheers,
Phil
Defiance bread flour. I just bought some Laucke bread flour. I though I might give that a go at some point.
Hi,
I have only had limited use of the defiance flour and I was not impressed.
I imagine the Laucke flour you bought was the "Wallaby" product. That is a quality flour and my choice if I am not using an organic product. Use that over the defiance variety for sure. It will easily work in a 70% hydration dough. I regularly use it in a 75% hydration sourdough which produces the nicest bread :)
If you can get your hands on Kialla's organic plain flour that is strong and thirsty too.
Whereabouts in Australia are you?
cheers,
Phil
Was expecting you'd come in and rescue! ;)
By the way, I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to try and help me. I hope I haven't annoyed people too much.
and i find this thread full of interesting information, so please... keep going at it! :O)
If you can't get any stronger flour, You can use eggs or milk or milk powder that contain good protein, however, I don't know what kind of loaf that you are looking for. As I see your 2 loaves, their crumb look different. Which loaf do you like the most ? It is very nice to read your post that TFL members helping you. I hope you will have a loaf that you really like.
Yeah the crumbs do look a little different. I probably prefer this one;
But lighter and with larger holes. It's quite dense. A slice of this bread would not be brown after toasting with the toaster on its maximum setting. When the toaster pops up I have to press it down again and toast it some more before it will brown.
Thank you for the reply,which is very helpful. I have the experiment about a loaf that doesn't turn to brown when I used organic flour that is not malted. How much instant yeast do you use now? What kind of yeast do you use? I am sorry if you already answered the questions.
About your flour: I think that Pips ( Phil) asked you what kind of flour you use. So, that is very good to ask him about flour and yeast etc.. . He lives in Australia,too.
One more thing. Whenever you stretch and fold, the dough needs more time to relax to make light bread. I always wait until the dough rises close to tripled for regular bread.
Well when I was making a dough that weighed 1kg I was using two level teaspoons of instant dry yeast. Then some posters suggested I reduce the size of the dough which I did. I reduced the dough weight down to 574g and then reduced the amount of yeast down to one level teaspoon.
I am using instant dry yeast.
I have tried allowing the dough to triple in volume during bulk fermentation after a stretch and fold of 15 minutes. After the dough tripled in volume, I stretched and folded the dough about three times, placed it in the loaf tin and rested for 45 minutes. The bread rose to only 1cm above the loaf tin. But if the dough is weak, then it probably won't do much in the oven no matter what I do.
Could you tell us the ingredients that you used the last time, and the loaf pan dimension. Example 23cm x 10cm x 10cm
By baker's %, instant yeast will be 1- 1.5 % as to 100% flour for regular bread. Some people use 2% as to 100% flour. 1tsp level instant yeast is around 4g. 2tsp level instant yeast = 8g , which is 1.3 % as to 600g bread flour ( 100%). That is fine. If instant yeast is under 0.8% as to 100% flour, that will be too less for regular bread.
* I think that some TFL members told you to reduce the instant yeast for the 7 hours autolyze.
About the instant yeast. Instant yeast should be mixed with dry ingredients at first except salt. Then add the salt in the dry ingredients. Then, add liquid and mix. I think that is not your problem..
About Stretch and fold: If you want to have light and softer crumb, you have to knead the dough until you pass the windowpane test. I think that kneading by strech and fold more likely has denser crumb.
Did you check at your flour's ingredients? You will find " Malted barley flour" in the ingredients if it is malted.
About bulk fermentation twice: I did this method before. I made a great sandwich loaf thanks to sortachef.
So I tried the same 70% dough again......the one I can make in my sleep now. Mwilson suggested I try stronger flour. I could not find any flour stronger than 12.5%, but I did find some pure gluten or wheat gluten to make my flour stronger.
I thought I'd make the protein content 16%. So to get 16g per 100g of flour I needed to add 3.5g of gluten for every 100g of flour which will give me 16g of protein per 100g of flour. I'm using 500g of flour in the recipe so 3.5g x 5 = 17.5g of gluten I need to add to 500g of flour. I hope that's how you use gluten.
So anyway I mixed the flour gluten and water together and autolysed for 45 minutes.
Then I stretched and folded for 15 minutes. This is what the dough looked like after 15 minutes of S&F
Bulk fermented for 1.5 hours. This is what the dough looked liked after the 1.5 hours;
Compare this with the same dough I made previously (without the added gluten), also after 1.5 hours bulk fermentation
This is the dough in the loaf tin at the start of second fermentation;
After 45 minutes of fermentaion
Dough after finished baking
So as you can see the added gluten made little if no difference.
Ignoring the height for a second, are you looking for a texture that is different from what you got in this bake? Based on the photo of the crumb, it looks like a light, airy loaf, not dense at all.
brad
I'm starting to get used to the constant failure, so I tried again. This time I again used the same 70% dough but this time I changed to a different brand of bread flour. The flour I've been using to this point had 12.5% protein. The new one has 11.9% protein. So I added gluten to increase the protein level to 16% as I did before. This is a picture of the finished bread after baking;
The previous bread with the old flour looked like this;
The bread with the new flour rose 2cm higher than the dough with the old flour.
your employing to this wet dough and if you notice the dough tightening up as you stretch and fold it. I would also like to know how many times you did a round of stretches and folds.
One little note, I have one inspirational photo for you... a steam chamber, try this with a lower hydration bake and after 20 min. remove the top pan.
I did try stretching and folding during the first fermentation. I did four stretch and folds every 15 minutes for 1.5 hours. I did notice the dough was a lot firmer when I had finished the final S&F. I then put the dough in the loaf tin and rested it for 20 minutes. I did not notice any improvement in the final bread. That was using the old flour though.
I have actually tried that method of puting one loaf tin over the other but did not notice any extra oven spring.
I'm just in total awe of your determination and effort you've been putting in trying to achieve your goal. ::bows::
From my own experiences in trying various flours, I can say protein conten you can see on flour bags is just a rough indication of how strong the flour is as you never know how much of the protein is gluten and also it's not only quantity but quality of gluten that matters a lot, too. Sometimes I find flour with lower protein is actually stronger than one with higher protein. You just have to try many flours yourself to find the one that suits your purpose. (Please see my blog entries on the quest of perfect baguette with improvised and/or French flour when you have time)
One thing, though.... you can get very open crumb with random-sized large holes more easisy with weaker flour, but it's quite difficult develop the gluten strength to correct degree; if it's not developed enough it won't rise properly, but it's also easy to over-work it that gluten can break down. With stronger flour you get volume more easily but the crumb tends to be more fine and even because gluten is too strong for expanding air to bread to make larger holes.
So are you saying that with stronger flour I am unlikely to get large irregular holes?
Am I more likely to get large irregular holes if use weaker flour and as you said, try to develop the gluten stength?
In general, yes and yes. I'm saying 'in general' because there're can be other factors that can affect dough making that may give you different results even if you're using same flour. (Eexample : the photo of crumb shot in my profile pic. It was made with strong flour but fermented over 3-days - totally unplanned but the product of series of unexpected incidents - which caused breaking down of some gluten by some acid produced during the long fermentation)
But yes, it helps to understand large, random holes are creaated by .....
1) expanding air during baking break gluten strand,
2) but the strong-enough gluten development to support the overall expansion of the dough.
So, as principle, stronger flour = better volume with fine, even crumb and weaker flour = less volume, with large air pockets if gluten is developed sufficiently, but if not, end up with less volume and less/small holes because weak gluten can't support the dough weight.
But do be careful not to over-knead it, as it breaks down the gluten. Letter-folding to strengthen the dough as Phil is suggesting below is safer and sure way of achieving the right dough strength.
I suspect there is some kind of hang up with the height of the loaf compared to the height of the bread tin. Don't go by the height of the tin unless the recipe specifically mentions your exact size of tin. The tin is not so important, the dough is. Read the dough not the tin. Think of the tin as something to keep the dough from running sideways and messing up the oven, that is the bread tin's purpose. Nothing more. I think standard bread tins are married to toasters. Rectangular loaf pans make square corners to fit toasters.
The crumb shot speaks more than a picture of a loaf in a tin. If you want it to rise higher than the tin, use more dough. I think your dough level is rather low in the tin. The problem is with so little dough in the pan, you are waiting far too long hoping to get maximum height just from the yeast before baking. Waiting for the yeast to peak or for maximum height is waiting too long.
Yeast can raise the dough but there is far more going on than just that, the dough has to be worked to hold the gasses produced. When the dough is folded, food is redistributed to yeast and gluten strands are reorganized to hold gases. When too much time lapses between being shaped and baked (as is with wet doughs,) those gluten strands relax too much and go weak and can't stretch any more. Doesn't surprise me that the dough in this condition doesn't rise much in the oven. If you save some of the rise for the warm oven, getting the dough hot sooner, then you might get more. Steam is far more powerful than just yeast. Waiting (proofing too long) for yeast in this final stage, actually produces a porous dough making it easier for trapped gasses and steam to escape. Don't quite know how I can stress that point.
Do this: take a ping pong ball size dough ball off your loaf just before your final loaf shaping. press the dough ball flat into a small narrow straight sided glass. Mark the level and place another mark where it should be double or peak with thiw 70% dough. Now mark a tiny dot half way between and then between the top two marks at 3/4. Now watch your dough in your pan and the glass rise for the last. Don't let the dough double and bake when the dough reaches between the and the 3/4 mark. Even after baking the loaf observe the dough in the glass to see if it reaches double. It it doesn't, then you may have to bake before the 3/4 mark is reached.
*****************************************************************************************
The simplest solution to this wet dough is to reduce the hydration. Mentioned and suggested often enough. As this all seems to be over your head, take a break, reduce to 60% and show us your bread. The flour you have should work just fine, you have just discovered one limit to your particular flour. Accept the fact that you have dough that is very wet and have no idea or experience at this time as to how to handle it. That will change. Save it for a later journey as you work up to 70%. If you want a bread that toasts in the toaster, you may never want to see a wet dough again! Collect some basic info and experience first with lower hydration breads. You will find that a 60% dough will be much easier to handle now that you been working with wet dough. It is also more fun to twist and stack and roll up.
There's no hang up with the height of the dough compared to the height of the loaf tin. I'm just using the top of the loaf tin as a referance point so I can judge how well the dough has risen If it rises to level with the top of the tin I know the bread will be dense and horrible.
I think using more dough to achieve a higher rise is missing the point. Using more dough means you'll end up will a very heavy dense loaf. A brick basically. The only way to achieve a light loaf is to use less dough and get it to rise really well.
I'm not really waiting a long time at all between shaping and baking. My second fermentation is only at most 30 minutes. Most of the time it's only about 20 minutes.
I have tried 60% hydration. I found no different between 60% and 70%
Yes I have a wet dough and yes you're probably right that I don't have enough experience to handle it. Isn't that the reason for this website?
"I found no different between 60% and 70%"
You might have a water problem...
I think your yeast is weak. Have you tried getting some new yeast? All these times seem really long and the dough seems really unlively based on the pictures. Instant dry yeast is pretty potent stuff, and it doesn't look to me like there's much going on with your dough. It rises, but anemically.
Yes I agree, the dough does rise kind of poorly. It takes 1.5 hours for the dough to double in size at an average temperature of 27c (80f)
I bought the yeast about 9 months ago. The best before date is 4th July 2012. Maybe I should try some newer yeast or maybe a different brand.
I see that it contains a rehydrating agent 491 (sorbitan monostearate.)
I wonder if this agent in the yeast is causing the 60% hydration and the 70% hydration to act too hydrated or similar when the yeast activity is low. I have some old yeast and will try some experiments. Don't throw the old yeast away just yet. Label it well so you don't use it in the dough but save it for some tests. And save a few hundred grams of the flour that seems so wet when it gets wet.
I'm always open to little experiments.....large ones as well!
I really think that you need to add malt powder (1-2% as to 100 % flour)to have your bread turns to golden brown. I also think that you need intensive kneeding for the wet dough so that the dough rises well in the oven,too. Sortachef uses a hand mixer to knead the dough. It works well. I use a stand mixer to get a windowpane.
As I see your recent dough at the second bulk fermentation, you need to wait more 30 minutes until you go to the next step. It is also very good to have a bench time to relax the dough before you shape and proof.
Eggs and milk help to rise the dough.
About the loaf pan: a square pan can hold wet dough to rise higher than yours, I think. Decrease some water may help as other TFL members suggested,in the process of intensive mixing. Think about panettone, the containers are more likely cilinder shapes.
"I also think that you need intensive kneeding for the wet dough so that the dough rises well in the oven"
I knead pretty instensly and I can achieve windowpane;
But windowpane probably won't help if the dough is weak and flabby.
Hi Walker,
Been watching this post for a while ... Where about in OZ are you and whats the weather and temperatures like? Is it humid? I normally drop the hydration slightly if its really humid like we have been having in Brisbane recently.
These are important to know so we can tell how quickly fermentation is taking place in the dough. I don't think it necessary to add gluten to the Wallaby flour ... it may be more with how the dough is being handled.
Some more questions if I may ...
Are you degassing/folding the dough during the bulk ferment? (ie the first rest after initial kneading) This can be important for high hydration dough to build strength which translate into the final shaped loaf ... help it to hold itself up.
How are you kneading? ... Have you seen the slap-and-fold method used by Richard Bertinet - this is my choice of kneading for high hydration doughs.
How are you shaping the loaf befroe it goes into the tin?
What yeast are you using? Is it reasonably new?
Are you using a poke test of some kind to tell when the final proof/fermentation is ready for the oven? Perhaps the loaf is fermented too far? Temperatures will vary the final fermenting times.
Are you wetting the top of the loaf or steaming the oven somehow? This will stop the top of the loaf drying out which will allow the loaf to expand more in the oven.
Do you have a stone or heavy tray that you could preheat and place the tin on to give the oven spring a boost?
cheers,
Phil
"Where about in OZ are you and whats the weather and temperatures like?"
I'm in Melbourne. The weather here is mosty warm to hot and the humidity is low. I do regulate the temperature during fermentation so it's averages about 27c
Are you degassing/folding the dough during the bulk ferment?
I did try stretching and folding during the first fermentation. I did four S&Fs every 15 minutes for 1.5 hours. It did not make a difference. Even so, I do think this is an important point for developing strength and firmness in the dough so it can hold its shape. Without S&F during fermentation the dough looks more like soup after 1.5 hours of no S&Fs.
I do intend on trying S&F during fermentation again.
How are you kneading? ... Have you seen the slap-and-fold method used by Richard Bertinet
Yes this is the exact method I've been using
How are you shaping the loaf befroe it goes into the tin?
I've tried just placing the dough into the loaf tin and flattening it out a litte. I've also tried shaping it more by folding the dough in thirds from one side and the folding it over itself from the other side, turning the dough 90 degrees and then repeating. Then placing the dough into the loaf tin seam side down. I've also tried the same folding technique but doing it four times instead of twice. I haven't noticed any improvement in oven spring.
What yeast are you using? Is it reasonably new?
I bought the dough about 9 months ago. The best before date is 4 July 2012.
Are you using a poke test of some kind to tell when the final proof/fermentation is ready for the oven? Perhaps the loaf is fermented too far?
Yes I always poke. Basically I determine the dough is finished fermenting when the dough springs back slowly. But I have also tried putting the dough into the oven when it springs back quicker. That didn't work so I tried putting the dough in the oven when it sprang back quicker again. The dough reaches the same level in relation to the loaf tin no matter how much I shorten the proofing time or lengthen the proofing time.
Are you wetting the top of the loaf or steaming the oven somehow? This will stop the top of the loaf drying out which will allow the loaf to expand more in the oven.
Yes I mist the dough with water before it goes into the oven. I also spray the walls of the oven with water straight after placing the dough in the oven. I've also tried pooring hot water into a hot pan method. I've even tried the method of putting steaming wet tea towls into a hot pan to create steam.
Do you have a stone or heavy tray that you could preheat and place the tin on to give the oven spring a boost?
No I don't have a stone or heavy tray. I guess I'll have to try that at some point.
First thing I would do would be replacing the yeast ... Lowan do a instant yeast in a red round cylinder which is what I use - Keep it in the fridge or freezer between uses. I usually use half the amount of yeast per 500g that the packaging says. I can't remember what those instructions are of the top of my head.
Definitely Stretch and fold during the bulk ferment. Perhaps two at 30 mins apart in the first hour and assess how the dough is behaving. Doing a preshape with degassing and rounding before letting it rest minutes prior to shaping can help with strengthening as well. Shaping is important so try and shape it neatly and reasonably tight.
Is your oven fan forced? If so this can play havoc even if you are misting the loaf. If possible turn the fan off or cover the loaf as Mini oven suggests.
I wouldn't bother with the gluten at this stage ... Keep it simple first ... rule out one thing at a time before adding extra stuff. You should be able to make lovely bread with the Wallaby flour, water, salt and yeast.
cheers,
Phil
Yes I will try again with shaping during fermentation.
My oven is fan forced but I never turn the fan on.
Yes the extra gluten did not make any difference, so I won't use on my next attempt. I'll just stick with flour, water, yeast and salt.
I just have a query. If I poke my dough after 15 minutes of stretching and folding, the dough rebounds very quickly. But 10 minutes into fermentation, if I poke it again, the imprint of my finger remains in the dough and does not spring back. The dough will remain this way during fermentation.
Is this normal?....or does this indicate weak dough?
Sorry, is that after kneading? How far into the bulk ferment is this?
When you stretch-and-fold the dough you are essentially tightening the gluten ... it will be tight and spring back. When the dough has been left alone for a period of time the gluten will begin to relax and the dough will probably not spring back much until some gas and strength has formed in it.
It is hard to say over this Internet thingy ... much easier to assess a dough in person :)
After the inital kneading your dough will relax in the bowl ... this normal. During the bulk ferment should begin to see some life in the dough. After 30mins I would flour the bench lightly (or spray with oil) and tip the dough out and give it some decent letter folds. With this stretch-and-fold really give it some good stretches ... be gentle later on with the others.
Letter folds: http://youtu.be/R1C7a11q_YE
Put it back in the bowl for a further 30 mins then repeat the folding procedure ... Now comes the important part ... how does the dough look and feel after that folding. You want to see it starting to hold its shape somewhat ... you don't want to see it slumping straight away ... if it is you may need to repeat the fold again in 30 mins if you are concerned about shaping it.
You will probably want to degas gently before preshaping since its a tinned loaf .... let it rest for 10-15 mins rounded before shaping ... this is another good chance to assess your dough ... how does it look? Does it slump straight away? Does it hold its shape fairly well? Have a look through my blog and you will see lots of photos of preshaped rounds. I love them :)
Hope this helps...
Cheers,
Phil
Sorry, is that after kneading? How far into the bulk ferment is this?
Yes after kneading, and 10 minutes into fermentation. Straight after kneading the indentation springs back very quickly. 10 minutes into fermentation if I poke the dough, the indentation does not spring back. This will be the case 30 minutes in or 60 minutes into the first fermentation, right to the the end of the first fermentation.
What should a 70% hydration dough look like at the end of the first fermentation?
Like this?
Yep, that dough is pretty indicative of what my pre-shaped loaves look like at the start of the bench rest (10-15min rest before shaping) They will slump slightly, especially the wetter the dough. You want them plump :)
So to get to this point I divided my dough after the first bulk ferment into two even pieces and gently degassed them and rounded them into a ball. You may want another shape depending on your final shaping ... this is what I tend to use.
Preshaping a lower hydration dough
http://youtu.be/_IbCylsGNL0
Then let the dough relax for 10-15mins (this allows the gluten to relax so you can then tighten again with the final shaping - if you don't let it relax you may tear it)
Can I ask a question though ...Why 70% Hydration? There may be more ideal formulas for a panned loaf than what you are trying to make.
Cheers,
Phil
Can I ask a question though ...Why 70% Hydration?
I want bread that is lighter with larger holes. I've tried 60% but the crumb was too fine and the loaf too dense.
Do you have a 60% recipe that I could try?
Hi walker8476
The easiest way for you to achieve "larger holes" is to change the style of bread you are trying to make. Bread pans are generally used to make Sandwich loaves. I suggest you proof your dough in bannetons and bake on a stone. It's a very different method of baking, but one wholly appropriate for the bread you actually want to make.
Honestly, there is little wrong with your efforts thus far. But white tinned bread hydration would be around 63%; not enough for big holes. Holes mean butter and filling drip through the bread; not required!
Best wishes
Andy
After re-reading the thread, I know Mini suggested a possible water issue, and I wanted to also suggest checking that. It seems like you've checked everything else, so why not the water? ;)
Do you get strong oven spring from any other recipes you try, or are you having the same problem on all your recipes?
If you have very soft water, it could be inhibiting gluten formation and keeping the dough from developing a strong gluten structure.
The solution? Try a filtered, bottled water instead of your tap water and see if your results change at all.
Kudos for sticking with working out the issues on this recipe!
That's not exactly true. I've found the way to a dough with a light, fluffy texture is primarily kneading, and a lot of it. The weight or volume of the dough doesn't matter; you can get that texture kneading up 1 loaf or 5 loaves worth of dough. Think store-bought sandwich bread, very light, fluffy and spongy...that is the effect I'm able to achieve with lots of kneading. Doesn't matter as much whether it's lean or rich (although enriched doughs, from my experience, usually end up with a lighter and fluffier crumb than lean doughs), but it is key to knead enough to make it light. I personally haven't found doing interval S&Fs to create nearly as light, fluffy a bread as when I knead in a stand mixer with a dough hook at medium speed for at least 10 minutes. YMMV.
Do you get strong oven spring from any other recipes you try, or are you having the same problem on all your recipes?
Yes no matter what recipe I try, the oven spring is always poor.
I've found the way to a dough with a light, fluffy texture is primarily kneading, and a lot of it
Well I knead for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes I don't feel as though I need to knead anymore because I can stretch the dough quite thinly.
I personally haven't found doing interval S&Fs to create nearly as light, fluffy a bread as when I knead in a stand mixer with a dough hook at medium speed for at least 10 minutes.
That's one thing that confuses me. Some people say to get light bread with larger holes you must not over-handle the dough and some say you need to beat the hell out of the dough.
This is from " Bread" by Jeffery Hamelman.
Your dough looks like achieved the windowpane test. but I don't think that you got the point. Did you hear some gassy sounds while kneading? Did you feel the dough fermenting while kneading?
Stretch & fold and kneading by hand and intensive mixing by mixer method make different kind of crumb.
That's one thing that confuses me. Some people say to get light bread with larger holes you must not over-handle the dough and some say you need to beat the hell out of the dough.
I agree.. but you have to develop gluten at least. You will have larger holes when you preshape, bench time and shape the dough gently.
By the way, could you show us what kind of crumb are you looking for? That will be clear which method is better for you to knead the dough. If you have a picture of the crumb that you like, it will be helpful to us.
What is the cause of that? I hear it sometimes well before the yeast has time to act. Or maybe I am simply pushing out air pockets by folding the dough.
That means that the dough is fermenting, which is a good sign to go to the next step, "Bulk fermentation".
How's your water quality?
Wild-Yeast
I tried the 70% loaf again. People have suggested I do a series of stretches and folds during bulk fermentation to strengthen the dough, so I amended the recipe I’ve been using to incorporate this. I have posted the recipe and procedure that I used on this attempt;
Bread Four 500g
Water 350g
Instant Yeast 2 tsp
Salt 2 tsp
1 Mixed flour and water together and left to autolyse for 15 minutes
2 Added the yeast and salt and stretched and folded (S&F) for 5 minutes
3 Rested dough for 20 minutes then 4 S&Fs (1st)
4 Rested dough for 20 minutes then 4 S&Fs (2nd)
5 Rested dough for 20 minutes then 4 S&Fs (3rd)
6 Rested dough for 20 minutes then 4 S&Fs (4th)
7 Rested dough for 20 minutes then 4 S&Fs (5th)
8 Rested dough for 20 minutes then 4 S&Fs (6th)
9 Rested dough for 30 minutes
4 Pre-shaped into loaf. Rested for 20 minutes
5 Final shaping into loaf
6 Placed dough in loaf pan and rested for 40 minutes
7 Misted loaf lightly with water and placed into oven
8 Sprayed oven walls with water and baked at 220c (428f) for 40 minutes
This is a picture of the dough after the initial 5 minutes of S&F or the start of the first 20 minute rest period;
Dough after the last S&F
The dough was able to hold a good shape throughout bulk fermentation
The dough 30 minutes after last S&F
Dough pre-shaped
Dough 20 minutes after pre-shape
Held its shape pretty well
Final shaping in loaf tin
Final fermentation. 40 minutes later
Bread when finished baking
It’s by far the best result I’ve had. I’m pretty happy with the way the loaf turned out. The loaf is very soft, light and fluffy. As soon as I picked it up, it felt right. It wasn’t heavy and dense. Previously the loaf I was baking weighed 920 grams (2.02lbs). The one I just baked weighed 680 grams (1.49 lbs) and rose higher.
I guess weak dough was the problem. I’ve realized that working with high hydration dough requires a different process and a different set of skills and techniques. I will continue to make small adjustments to the recipe and see if I can improve the loaf even further.
Thank you to everyone who posted suggestions. I would never have figured out what I was doing wrong on my own. I would have continued baking bricks!
Looks good! Well done. Your persistence is admirable.
Congrats! It's your determination and effort that gave the result you reserve. :)
Exactly! And also different type of flour is suitable for different type of bread. The sort of flour with relatively low protein is actually ideal for free-form hearth bread with airy crumb with large holes, like pain rustique, ciabatta or focaccia.....and baguette if you're brave enough! ;)
Look forward to witness how you develop your bread-making skills. With your determination and devotion, I'm sure you'll get much better very, very quickly.
Yay! Congratulation! I had the same rising problem when I started baking seriously . I am so happy to see that you made the bread you are pleased with!
Nice work. Glad its coming together for you.
Determination will help you go a long way :)
Cheers
Phil
Excellent, nice work!
Now that you have it more dialed in, I still recommend that you try it again with bottled water, and see if the result is any different. One bottle of water won't break the bank, and will give you more insight into how water quality might be affecting your dough behavior.
... I just wanted to add a thought for future readers. I don't have too much experience yet, but I must share my experience with yeasts, for what it's worth. In the beginning, I always used active dry yeast and on the whole, as months and months went by I had good results with rise and airiness. There was a time, though, that I tried using instant yeast, several times, and with different breads. I found that the instant yeasts (two different brands, both "newer" and refrigerated) NEVER worked will for me, producing spring and consistency like your original loaves and worse. I noticed that the doughs behaved differently, too, from all my doughs previously, and were unfamiliar. I can't say what the exact cause really was, but the first time I switched back to instant dry yeast, the dough worked really well and continued "performing" well always since then. I've never used instant yeast again. Only because it isn't right for me.
I'll also echo what some of the old hats said about baking stones. It really changes the way that the dough bakes, and contributes to the spring and airiness in ways that pans et al. won't. Food for thought.