What sort of rye is this and how would I achieve it?
I was until recently under the mistaken impression that all rye bread was the sort you get in supermarkets in the UK and Belgium and Sweden. Small, dense, dark, and exceedingly rich in flavour.
This is the picture of the common UK brand. Like in Belgium and Sweden it is sold in the UK in pre-sliced form. The texture is crumbly and the bread has a habit of falling in half when you take the slices out.
Ingredients: Cereal (Rye Wholemeal, Whole Grain Rye Flour), Water, Natural Sourdough (Wholegrain Rye Meal, Water), Sea Salt.
I followed a 'deli style rye' recipe from the American artisan bread in 5 minutes book, and was rather surprised that it produced a nice tasting loaf but decidedly unlike the sort of 'rye' I have been wanting. Really quite light in colour, and far more subtle in flavour. Ignorant of me perhaps, but it was news to me that when recipes from other countries say 'rye' they don't necessarily mean the very dark bread I'm used to.
Is it a 'dark rye' that this sort is called, or is it something more like pumpernickel, does anyone know? I notice the tendency of such loaves to be made in Germany- is this a specifically German style of rye bread?
Is regular rye flour different from the wholemeal and whole grain rye flour mentioned in the ingredients? The rye flour I have been using is unbranded stuff from my local health food store, so I am uncertain of the type, but it looks quite fine.
Any advice would be appreciated on unravelling the mysteries of rye varieties.
You can find what you need by searching this site for "Vollkornbrot". This is the dark dense German rye that you describe....and yes, deli style rye is an entirely different bread.
Jeff
Hello Graid,
To me this bread is more of a Pumpernickel than a Volkornbrot. You can read more about it here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18638/bread-adventures-july-2010 Recipe no.3
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17931/horst-bandel039s-black-pumpernickel
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17254/horst-bandel039s-balck-pumpernickel
The true Pumpernickel is a combination of rye sourdough, cooked whole grains of rye, chopped rye berries, coarse dark rye flour, altus [soaked old rye bread] and some strong white flour to help bind together. I like to steam this for a very long time, but if you choose to bake, it is best done in a pan with a lid on and baked very slowly for a good few hours. The loaf continues to darken after it comes out of your oven/cooker.
You can buy all the rye materials online here: http://www.shipton-mill.com/flour-direct-shop/rye-flours
except for whole rye grain, which Shipton don't supply. You could try Green City Wholefoods in Glasgow for this?
All good wishes
Andy
Andy,
It was the all rye, and only rye, ingredients listed in the original post that lead me to see this as a vollkornbrot. I thought of Hamelman's vollkornbrot such as you describe in your first link. The vollkornbrot that I make is very similar to this and also includes flax seed. I cannot remember the origins of my recipe as it was developed some time ago but it may have come from Hamelman prior to my various tweaks and alterations.
I must say that the 9 hour steam of the pumpernickel is nothing short of enticing.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
The seed content is what I think of when it comes to defining a Volkornbrot. I'm no expert on German Bread, maybe Karin or Juergen can add to this?
I've made both Hamelman's Pumpernickel and his Volkornbrot, and the Pumpernickel is definitely closer to what Graid has posted about above.
I have a Borodinsky loaf about to come out of the oven now. It went in at 280*C, but I immediately dropped the temperature to 100*C and it's been baking with a small source of steam since then. My wife has been going crazy with hunger all morning, all induced by the aroms coming from the oven!
Will post on it soon
Very best wishes
Andy
Andy,
It is the soaked whole rye grain in the bread that I believe (heaven forbid that I might be wrong!!!!!!!!) is an essential quality in the vollkornbrot. I do not know if this is what you refered to as seed or if you meant the flax. I'll wait for those closer to this bread to weigh in with an opinion.
As for the Borodinsky.........now there is a bread that brings on many differences of opinion. Mine relies on coriander and I make it for myself on occasion but it is not a bread that I sell. This is the bread closest to my heart and I would love to taste yours if not for that little pond between us.
At the very least Graid, we have given you much to ponder.
Jeff
I'm enjoying your banter but it is a pumpernickel, it is also a vollkornbrot. But I have to tell you that not all vollkornbrot is pumpernickel. Pumpernickel is all rye. Not all vollkornbrot is rye, it can also be wheat or combinations. Vollkorn is the larger category. Pumpernickel is specific. So you are both right for each other's reasons. Lol!
I say it's a pumpernickel type bread because it is all rye using both the flour and the coarse or whole grain with rye sour.
Thanks Mini,
so what Hamelman attributes as "Horst Bandel's Black Pumpernickel" is technically a Volkornbrot, since it contains 20% wheat on total flour. Or, as explained by Juergen, it should be classed as "Schotbrot".
Good to know this discussion entertained you and that we've all kept it good-natured.
"Borodinsky" says I!!
All good wishes
Andy
American pumpernickel. A different breed of bread altogether.
I believe it would be a mischbrot (the next biggest category) and not a vollkornbrot in Germany as it has 25% high gluten flour to 75% rye meal,berries and chops. (Recipe is on page 222-4 "Bread" By Jeffrey Hamelman)
Yes, that's the recipe Mini.
But Horst Bandel, who is the subject of the story, was from a family of German bakers. I guess the adoption of high gluten flour would be down to Jeffrey Hamelman rather than Horst Bandel. It's still a high rye to me @ 75%, although I am tempted to make it 100% rye moving forward...I guess you would need some white rye in there, or, maybe 25% Light Rye [997]?
I'm currently loving the Borodinsky, though 2/3 of it is sold. Look forward to lunchtime!
Best wishes
Andy
Hm. Seems to be Hamelman.
In Germany according to the document I mentioned below, Pumpernickel is a Vollkorn with at least 90% rye meal, and baking times of at least 16 hours.
By the way - Every time someone mentiones Andy's Borodinsky in this post I am starting to salivate - not fair.
Andy, are you bringing one of those to the gathering?
Cheers,
Juergen
Is that the popular request, Juergen?
It seems like a good idea given that the Red Rye Malt was brought back from Russia by a fellow TFL member doesn't it?
Unless there are other requests?
All good wishes
Andy
Hi Andy,
I will be very happy to taste your bread - which ever it will be.
As I don't know who is coming - and also because I am not an organiser - I don't quite feel in a position
to collect popular requests, and to shout
WHO WANTS ANDY'S BORODINSKY?
Oops, have I just done that?
Personally, and for the reason you have given, I think Borodinsky is a very good idea.
Juergen
around you by now, computer inclusive. For your own safety, put some high rye under your toungue and count to 100%. :)
Lots of rye around at the moment ...
On Sunday I made a double bake of 100% ryes - to find out if there is a major difference between Mohnheimer Salzsauer and Detmolder Einstufen Führung (DEF) - both with WG rye, 78% hydration, 30% prefermented flour. The Mohnheimer was a bit more fruity early on, but now they are practically undistinguishable. Had some for lunch.
Then, I just got another test bake out of the oven - 3X 70% ryes using the DEF, one with 30% bread flour, one with 30% light spelt, one with 30% WG Emmer - the house smells wonderful.
And I won't attach a photo of my keyboard ...
Juergen
But... Knowing how recipes get tweaked for various reasons be it tastes, limitation, traditions or just using up the last of the oven heat during a blizzard, the price difference rye vs wheat, an economic crunch, or avoiding German stereotypes; that he was of German decent (something played down while living in the United States during two world wars) means his family found a way to adapt to a situation and still be stubborn about keeping a fair amount of lovely rye in the bread. The recipe includes enough rough rye to be remembered and easily passed down to teach particular lessons about rye. I think it is unique in that respect. Not for Germany but for America.
My rice cooker is pouring out aromas. I ended up cooking spelt berries too. Just added more hot water to the dry cooker and stirred them around a bit. The water is turning a nice maillard brown. Wonderful!
Graid, hanging a picture of 100% rye bread (even in plastic) will attract a number of rye lover loafers. :)
"Rye Wholemeal, Whole Grain Rye Flour), Water, Natural Sourdough (Wholegrain Rye Meal, Water)..."
My guess would be:
Rye Wholemeal is very coarse rye flour.
Whole Grain Rye Flour is a fine flour.
Natural sourdough would be a rye sourdough culture fed with
Whole Grain Rye Meal is most likely rye chops or broken pieces most often used for feeding starters and may even include whole berries.
Mini,
I love your vollkornbrot/pumpernickel explanation, it reminds me of ....all brandy is wine but not all wine is brandy and all cognac is brandy and so on and so forth. ' Tis you who made me laugh,
Jeff
Thank you, very useful information! Sounds like this is a rather complex bread to make, and I'm taking it that I probably can't manage it without a sourdough starter. But I shall look into getting the rye ingredients now I know what to look for! The shipton link is very useful. Would the 'chopped whole rye grain'/cracked rye work to some extent? I do think though that the kind I've been eating has the grain whole and intact, it has that look to it.
Hello Graid,
If you note my first comment and check the links, you'll see the recipe I've posted uses the following:
rye sourdough made with dark rye flour and water and culture from stock; dark rye flour, rye chops, cooked whole rye berries [they are the whole grains, in tact], plus altus [soaked old rye bread] and strong white flour. The other additions are salt and blackstrap molasses.
According to Mini's definitions this would be known as Volkornbrot, although the formula I based it on is known as Pumpernickel in the book I originally used when working on this formula. If you wanted to make it a true Pumpernickel based on Mini's definitions, then you would need to substitute the strong flour with a light, or a white rye flour...Shipton sells light rye [type 997].
Best wishes
Andy
ps. Yes you would need to make up a rye starter to make this bread.
try not to look at it as a wheat bread recipe. Think more like heavy fruit cake. A true no-knead bread. Knowing what to expect makes it easier. Takes a little soaker time and growing a starter (get any starter and start feeding it rye flour for a few days) but once you do make the bread, you're hooked.
I am with Andy's wife when it comes to the long bake and aromas as pure torture, the heavenly kind. Just talking writing about rye nearly drives me crazy and I'm a good distance away. I could walk into a nearby bakery but I'm sort of a masochist in that I have to fill my house first for over 24 hours with baked rye aromas before I'm worthy. (I suppose I could tie myself to a chair in the bakery cafè for 24 hours and then just buy the bread presliced. But I might end up buying everything else. Na ya, always an alternate way of doing things... )
I'm off experimenting again. To make the most from a shorter bake (under 2 hours) I'm pre-cooking the whole grain, throwing the soaked berries into a rice cooker and then cooling them to put into the dough like one would nuts. In fact, I think I'll go do that right now. I want to make an 80% rye with 20% einkorn flour. That would keep the fiber levels well above 9%. I do add a bread spice mixture of crushed coriander/caraway/and fennel to the dough. Just enough to round the flavours. Can't wait for the aromas!
Oh, and if you like walnuts (big tip here) it never hurts to combine with a newly made rye starter, sort of rounds out the bread flavour and adds a few complexities early on until the starter itself gets some age to it. If the crumb and bake is maillard enough, you'll never see any purple. (I think I'll put that on a t-shirt.) (maillard reaction makes the bread dark) (purple crumb staining from walnuts)
I put what I like into my bread. Miniovinsker! :)
Hi,
To clarify the Vollkornbrot thing:
In Germany, certain expressions for food are kind-of protected, and there is a document available about what bakers must do when they want to call their bread "Vollkornbrot", or how much of altus they can use.
The document is called "Leitsätze Für Brot" (you'll find it with google).
According to this "Vollkornbrot" must consist of a minimum of 90% wholegrain products (flour, flakes, seeds etc), that means it can have 10% or less refined flour (less than 100% extraction).
I hope that helps.
In respect to the original post:
This type of bread is also calleds "Schrotbrot", schrot being coarse rye meal.
I tried Süpke's recipe for this and wanted to post, but somehow other things got in the way.
I found that if you respect time and temperature there is a wide variety of things you can do:
At the time I only had rye flakes (rolled rye), and they wouldn't go through my handmill. As a result I made a "Schrotbrot" entirely with rolled rye. 100% rolled rye. It is crazy, it worked, and was delicious.
Süpke gives as a clue that kneading/stirring the dough (or wahatever you call it) during the final fermentation is important, he mentioned that some bakers from North Germany (the Schrotbrot stronghold) knead as long as 50 minutes. This - in my experience - helps to turn some of the bigger bits into a goo which nicely holds the bread together - even if it is made with 100% rolled rye.
Cheers,
Juergen
to know about, how far into the final fermentation that would be? I imagine a slow stir also (gathering from a particular video) and not something wicked and wild. Or are we lost for specifics?
Mini
Hi Mini,
Süpke proposes intervals:
http://baeckersuepke.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/roggenvollkorn-ohne-hefe/
I haven't got a machine, just my Danish Dough Hook, I did intervals, but rather less than given in the recipe.
Juergen
interesting...
Ressurecting this useful thread because I am finally in possession of-
A stiff sourdough rye starter that has proved capable of rising one (white) loaf so far, though has now been unfed for 4 days in the fridge which makes me wonder whether it is capable, as I would like, of being used now (Peter Reinhart's book says you can use it 'up to 5 days'). I should perhaps feed it first and let it rise before proceeding..
And quantities of:
dark rye flour
and
chopped rye
Obtained as suggested above a long time ago, from Shipton mill.
I have spent some time searching through Volkornbrot, dark rye and various other recipes, but I have been unable to find a recipe I can proceed with, using what I have. I am obviously a beginner to rye making and indeed sourdough, otherwise I would just make something up according to my general notions of correct ratios.
Does anyone have a fairly simple recipe for a dark rye using dark rye flour and chopped rye? I am not at this moment fussed about it being a 100% authentic Volkornbrot, I just want a dark rye of some description, that doesn't require any extra ingredients.
This is my general idea of what I should do, which may be laughably wrong, but I do not have the specific quantities for the chopped rye vs flour:
Boil some water and put it on the chopped rye in a bowl to soak it overnight.
Once these are soaked, mix them together with the sourdough starter and an as yet unknown quantity of dark rye flour, salt and water, leave this out for about 8 hours until it has risen (about 1.5 times its volume?). Then refrigerate and let rest for a day or so, then take out, leave for 2 hours, and then bake at 190C for at least 60 minutes.
Assuming this will not create an unworkable abomination, does anyone have some suggestions for some ratios of flour/stiff starter/meal/water that will work for this basic idea?
Try my favorite rye ratios and hold back just a tiny bit of water until you see how the dough is wetting. Rye will not act like wheat and will resemble puddy. That said, I think your starter is good to go, it justs needs a little breaking up into the water. You can soak the chops if you wish overnight, drain and get a start in the morning. Better to mix the dough on the gloppy side than too dry. You should be able to hold the dough but only with two hands.
Add ins might include toasted seeds and nuts like sesame, sunflower, walnuts among others.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio
The more bran on the grain, the faster the ferment so I would add salt right away and reduce the first rise 75°F (24°C) to 2 hours, fold the dough and place in a form to rise 2-3 hrs tops. Bake form on the bottom rack of a cold oven with the lid on (double layer of alu-foil) for 2 hrs at 190°C. Remove foil after 1.5 hrs. Let brown and remove from oven when the inside temp reaches 205°F (96°C)
Mini
Ah, oops, I had no idea it was bad to retard rye bread! Thank you for your advice! When you say my starter is 'good to go' I take it you mean that, following your instructions, it should be now refreshed (since it says 8-12 hours before) and possibly (unless this violates more bread laws I have not known about) made a bit more liquid than before (since atm it is nowhere near 100% hydration). So, I feed the starter and add a bit more water than before and start soaking the chopped rye, then when the starter has peaked (though I am not expert at telling this I shall guess based on size and time), I mix it into a dough with the ratio you have shown in the link you gave? And then as you say above I add the salt and use the rising times you specified. How much chopped rye would you advise to put in in comparison to the flour? A similar amount to bread spice?
You can soak the chops separately or you can feed the starter with them.
You should be able to tell it's ripe from the smell more than from doubling. After you bake the bread and examine the crumb, you might want to up the chops or reduce them. I think 20% of total flour could easily be chops.
Theoretically you could go for 100% chops and call it pumper. The higher the amount of chops, the denser the bread. But I don't think you want to go that far so soon.
You could also take out 20% of the total rye and use bread flour. Mix it first with some of the water to autolyze 30 minutes to develop gluten first before adding the starter, rye flour, salt and anything else. If you add wheat, let the internal loaf temp rise to 210°F before removing from oven.
Thank you!
I made rye bread according to your ratio, and it turned out a little gummy in the middle but otherwise absolutely delicious, I have never made a rye that tastes anything like 'proper' rye before, and this definitely did! So much flavour- not at all like when I've used light rye flour in combination with wheat flour. I am really pleased with it, it is by far the greatest success I've had with a sourdough starter.
I am not sure though that my starter is behaving as it should, though it certainly works- it took it about 10 hours (at around 20-21C) for the first rise, and then I had to leave it overnight for the second proof, as I was going to bed. Predictably it had overproofed by the time I got up, but I punched it down, waited an hour or so and it had risen again enough that I risked trying to bake it, and happily it did not collapse as I feared it would. I would say other than perhaps not being cooked for long enough (I gave it an hour but there was still some gumminess) the texture was as a 100% rye bread should have been.
I worry that my starter does not have sufficient acidity (Ph tests with strips give a rather ambiguous result which definitely suggests its not in the right range- my strips are 2.0-4.4 and it appears to be not within this range), but at least it does work, and does have decent flavour, so I probably shouldn't be complaining! Especially given the delicious rye bread.