New KitchenAid Mixer --- Not the right model for bread or did I do something wrong?
Hi,
My lovely wife bought me a KitchenAid Mixer for Chrismas this year. Today was the first time I had a chance to bake since the holidays and I decided to break it in with a fairly wet dough (about 60% hydration, 550 g flour, 330 g water + 100% starter). This particular model has a 300 watt motor with a 4.5 quart bowl (model number KSM95CU). I should also note I did not exceed the speed setting of 2 while kneading. (I think I did turn it up a bit higher when I was mixing 330g flour and 330g water prior to autolyze, but I didn't notice anything then and it had a 20 minute rest before I added the rest of the flour and the problems started happening).
I had two issues, #1 is not major but #2 is the real concern.
1. The dough kept climbing the hook. And by climbing the hook I mean it went over the top of the attachment and if I did not repeatedly stop the mixer and push it down, it would have spun up and inside the motor. This is not a huge issue, I can work with that. There is also the spiral dough hook I can try, and I can also try greasing it better or making smaller batches. The next issue is the real concern.
2. The top of the mixer got *very* hot and it started giving off the smell of a motor about to burnout. I've burnt out a few handheld electric mixers in my day and it was smelling exactly like a handheld mixer starts to smell right before it burns out.
Now the dough turned out quite nice, so I am happy with that. My main concern is that the mixer will burnout from repeated use. I guess we are debating now whether this is normal and not cause for concern or if we should exchange for either another model with a higher watt motor or something else like the electrolux dlx. It seems like an expensive mixer like this should not have any trouble mixing up a small dough batch without burning out, I mean I thought this is what they were for after all....
You didn't say how big a batch of bread you made. If you made MORE than the machine could handle, yes, you'd have problems.
Also, it seems that you weren't using the dough hook. I use the dough hook even for mixing.
Hi thanks for the reply but I specified the size of the batch (550g flour + 330g water + starter) and the fact that I used the dough hook (that was one of the issues). The manuals specifies not to exceed recipes calling for more than 8 cups of AP flour...I didn't exactly measure using cups as I weigh things out on my scale. Eyeballing it didn't appear to be over 8 cups however. Perhaps it was slightly over 8 cups (I was also using King Arthur bread flour, so maybe that could have been a factor as well).
If 8 cups is the maximum supported by your KA mixer, then here are some estimates (depending on how much flour is in your cup):
125g per cup * 8 cups = 1000g maximum flour
140g per cup * 8 cups = 1120g maximum flour
So it sounds like you were in range, at least according to their stats.
I have climbing problems in my KA too, usually when it's a combination of being overloaded and having a really sticky/wet dough (like a 50/50 wheat/rye dough). Looking at my recipe book, it appears that likewise, my recipe is out of range (probably a bit over 1000g flour), and therefore susceptable to climbing.
Your best bet is just to reduce your batch size somewhat, if possible. This works well for me, but takes a bit longer. For example, for four (4) 975g loaves, I mix each as a separate batch, and even with the sticky rye, there is no climbing.
I regularly knead moderate hydration doughs (60-65%) in my KA at speed #3-4 for 8-10 minutes, I keep my hand on the top of the mixer to feel the heat, it definitely gets warm but I get no smell. Any longer than that, I usually let it cool down at least for a few minutes before mixing again.
Although Kitchen Aide makes some lovely machines, bread making isn't their strength. You'll need to read the manual for your specific machine (which is one of their smaller models) to see what it recommends for the amount of bread dough that it can handle. At 550g of flour, you may have been over the recommended maximum. And at 60% hydration, your dough isn't all that wet or soft which means it will be more of a struggle for the machine.
The other thing with KA machines is the speed. I think that speed 2 is the top speed that they recommend for bread dough. If you were running at a higher speed, that could also have an effect on how much the motor heats.
I know KAs tend to get bashed quite a bit here on TFL, which isn't entirely fair. I would characterize them more as a cake baker's mixer than as a bread maker's mixer. They do very well with things like batters and meringues and frostings that are much "looser" than bread dough. They also handle small quantities better than some of the more bread-oriented mixers.
If you want to entertain yourself with mixer trash talk, use the Search tool for terms like Kitchen Aide, or dlx, or Bosch. You'll get lots of opinions to mull over.
Paul
Thank you for the thought out reply, Paul. I must say about the only thing I bake is breads. I bake breads for us almost every week and hand kneed the dough, which is why she thought the KitchenAid would be a nice gift. I must say I was excited to try it out but was dissappointed by the KitchenAid's performance.
My wife does the cakes and cookies in the household, so she may end up finding more of a use for it than me. It seems like I should either stick to small batches or trade it in for something else if my wife doesn't think she will get much use out of it.
I too have a 300w KA . I got it for Christmas nine or ten years ago . Admittedly I did not use it for bread for the first few years (made it by hand) I now use it at least twice a week making two sandwich loaves at a time or baguettes and other free standing loaves. I stick to speed #2 except when making " Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread" . This is made on speed 6 for anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes and the machine only gets slightly warm ! ( His recipe states that it " will not hurt your precious Kitchen Aids " ) I have found that oiling the underside of the hook usually combats the dough climbing problem. Many people complain about their KAs and discuss alternatives. I think I'd like a DLX....but I really can't justify spending that much money when my KA just won't break down !
You may get to like your machine when you have used it a few more times - Happy New Year - Merlie.
Well put, Paul, a cake baker's mixer. The older (Hobart) KA mixers were great for bread but the new ones just can't handle it.
If you want a mixer primarily for making bread, I would return the KA and go with a Bosch or an Electrolux. I have an Electrolux and a Bosch Compact, and the little Compact out kneads the KA that died on a much wetter dough than yours (about 2 years old). If you just want to occasionally make bread, you may be fine with the KA.
Hi zekemon,
Am curious how long you mixed the dough and at what speed. KA's manuals note that bread dough should never be mixed above speed two or it may damage the mixer. My manual also has info about the maximum amount of AP and WW flour that can be mixed.
Am not sure which model you have, but I have a KA Artisan and found it heated up when mixing bagel dough (58% hydration), which is a very stiff dough. Have had no issues with wet doughs in the 70% range. I used to put an ice pack on top of the mixer when mixing bagel dough, but finally purchased a Bosch Compact which easily handles low hydration doughs.
There have been a lot of complaints about KA because they used plastic gears for a while, and I think still use plastic gear housing for the metal gears. That led to a lot of failures.
If you are going to consider another mixer, advertised wattage has no bearing on the power of the mixer as manufacturers only advertise the input wattage, never the amount of power the mixer actually produces.
Oiling the hook may help; my Artisan does the same thing, although I now primarily use it for my mill and grinder attachments. If the spiral hook will fit in your mixer, that may help with the dough climbing issue.
Am guessing other KA owners will pop in with their suggestions/comments.
Thanks for your thoughts. I was kneeding at speed 2. I think I was kneeding for about 15 minutes but it certainly wasn't running that entire time. I was constantly stopping it to remove the dough that was climbing the hook before it got pulled in the motor housing.
I'm not sure I would trade in for another KitchenAid and most other brands seem more expensive than the KA. With both my wife and myself in grad school at the moment we don't exactly have lots of disposable income, so I think it is the KA or nothing. Thanks for the tip about the wattage btw, we were both under the impression that it was in reference to the actual power produced.
I know my wife will get use out of it for cakes and cookie batter, so maybe I'll keep at it and just watch my batch sizes. I typically make high hydration doughs so maybe it won't be an issue. I can go back to kneeding by hand for any large batches or stiff doughs. Perhaps a Bosch or Electrolux will be a nice graduation present to myself in the future :D
In response to the quote below, one other option to consider that won't break the bank is a Bosch Compact. You can pick one up for about the same price as a KA Artisan (and much less than many KA models, including the Pro600 of mine that died on a wet bread dough). It won't look as pretty as the KA but it won't even get warm on a batch of bagel dough. I have a Compact and my only complaint is that once the dough comes together, I have to stand there and make sure the machine doesn't walk off the counter. But it is more than powerful enough. And it does just fine on cakes and cookies as well. Looks like it was made by Fisher Price but beats the heck out of a KA as far as performance.
I would suggest you consider replacing the KA with a Compact, then think about a big Bosch (Universal) or an Electrolux when cash is less of an issue. If, at that time, you even feel the need to upgrade. You might not. The Compact is that good a machine.
I'm not sure I would trade in for another KitchenAid and most other brands seem more expensive than the KA. With both my wife and myself in grad school at the moment we don't exactly have lots of disposable income, so I think it is the KA or nothing.
Hi, thanks again. I guess I was looking at the Bosch Universal. Just to make sure, is the model you are refering to?
http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-MUM4405UC-Compact-Mixer-mum4405/dp/B0006DORPU/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1326159253&sr=1-1
The KA model my wife got me was ~200, but she got it on a black Friday deal so I believe it was around $150, however I do have some extra Christmas cash still lying around so a trade up is in the realm of possible if this indeed the model you are referring too.
I'm also curious what is the max batch size you can make in the Bosch Compact?
Yes, that's the one. Not sure of biggest batch size but I have made bagels using 825 gm of high gluten flour (about 58% hydrated) with no sign of strain. Just need to hold it still so it doesn't hop off the counter. It is a great little mixer. I have also made marshmallows and whipped cream in it with great results (don't need to hold it for that stuff, just for bread dough).
Another option would be to look for a good used Universal or Electrolux.
I have an old Epicurean 6 qt KA and when I first started using it to knead bread I had the same problem with the dough climbing the hook. I have found that the only way to prevent the climb is to run it on at least a speed of 3 or 4 (a 4-5 minute knead is usually just right). On any lower speed and I have have to stop frequently to push the dough back down into the bowl. The mixer "walks" alot during the knead so I have to keep a hand on it, but the motor doesn't generate too much heat. I bought it used, so never had a manual, but I have read a lot of responses that say you can't knead bread in a KA mixer on anything higher than speed 2. If I run it on speed 2 no kneading gets done, only a lot of hook climbing. Sorry, I guess this doesn't help you with the heat issue, but running the mixer on a little higher speed stops the climbing issue. Good luck!
I've owned a 5 quart tilt, and a 6 quart lift. Sold both and bought a Bosch.
Steer your wife into making cakes only, or look into no knead breads, or buy a Bosch/DLX/industrial mixer.
I think that it is a good general rule that the new KA mixers are not good for mixing bread dough. They are great for a good many lighter tasks but they are simply not up to the mixing of dough. The number of reported KA mixer troubles reported on this site alone are testament to that fact. Of course there are always exceptions and there are owners of such a mixer that have not experienced mixer failure but this is the exception, not the rule.
Jeff
I use my KA to mix everything together and then use a series of rests and folds through bulk fermentation. I have not had any problems with my mixer overheating. The dough does climb the hook but, doesnt try to attack the mixer. I also dont use it to knead so that may be why I dont have that problem. I also use 65% hydration in my doughs. Since its winter right now Im at 70% and in summer I will be back at 65%. My whole grains usually run 10% more on the hydrations.
In my experience dough climbing up the hook is result of incorrect batch size and hydration. The larger the batch and the denser the dough the higher is the chance it will start climbing. It really takes 1% in hydration or 100-200g in batch size to make the difference. Assumung 220 g of starter, you had ~1.1 kg of dough at 67%. I would say that for the season and KABF it's too little water (I'd go with at least 340 g) and/or too much dough. Interestingly enough, if you make the dough even denser, and make more of it will stop climbing. But that will take you there. Another thing is, you have a tilt mixer, and personally I believe that tilt-heads are not meant for bread-making, whatever KA says. Tilt-head makes problems harder to handle. With lift-head KA it is often enough to lift the head a little for the dough to slide down.
I believe in the instructions for KA they so don't do doughs for longer than 5 minutes w/o a break, at least that's what mine says. I've found that it does okay for about 10 minutes before it gets hot and starts giving off that cooked-motor-windings smell. You can always give it a couple of minutes rest and go back to the knead without causing any damage. Alternatively you can try the magic of hand-kneading! :)
I have the Artisan with the 375 motor and that gets hots now and then also. I have been eyeing the more sturdy ones but can't make myself switch since I also have a pile of attachments for the Artisan. grrrr
I have an older Kitchenaid stand mixer, the K5SS; it's 325 watts, but marked as HEAVY DUTY. This was given to me by a friend, after her mother died; it was her mother's mixer. I've been making bread with it for several years. I use only the dough hook for mixing and kneading bread; I make bread in batches of 4-1/2 cups flour (plus extra if needed; I can't afford a scale), high hydration, never knead more than four or five minutes. The motor never overheats and while the dough can climb the hook to an extent, it never goes over the plate at the top of the hook. My bread has a tender, fine crumb, thanks in part to stretch and fold. I don't understand all the Kitchenaid hating. This used machine has served me well for a long time. Perhaps it's just the KIND of bread I make. I don't make large batches and I don't usually make stiff doughs.
I believe the dislike is because the product is not built the way it was years ago. I gave away my "old" kitchenaid to my daughter in law and she loves it. I never had a problem with that one. The new one I had I didn't care for, and gave that one away to a friend. I now own a Viking and a Bosch and am satisfied. Seems like a lot of products aren't made they way they used to. Lots of shortcuts and lots of plastic.
More then likely your Kitchenaid was made by Hobart, the ones people gripe about are not. I actually would have been quite happy with my Kitchenaid for cakes but since I make bread not cake, I got rid of mine after the third breakdown and bought the Bosch Universal I've had for 12 years. I also had the Compact and it's a nice little machine, can do two loaves in it. The Universal, I usually do five or six loaves.
Not even sure which model it is to be honest. I will admit that I only use it until the dough has come together and is ready to knead. Then I manually knead the dough. Although I have only made a few batches of bread dough (sill new here) I have had no problems at all with my KA.
Dan
I have a KA PRO that we bought 22 years ago. I routinely make 4 loaf batches (sorry I don't know how to convert to grams) but about 4 lb. of total King Arthur Bread Flour and 6 cups of water. able to mix very well but not pull away from the sides so I must finish by hand. The mixer is finally starting to slow down a bit. I can't find any reviews on the new 7 QT kitchen aid and everything else is either very expensive or has so many wildly diverse reviews I am stumped. Can't afford a Hobart (and really don't need the capacity) but how to sort through the chaff for bit of real wheat? Any one got a review of their personal use of Bosch/dlX/Viking after at least five years of large batches. Thanks folk, very nice forum. PhilipG -newbi here, but long time bread baker.
Looks like general consensus is that newer KA are not up to the task of making dough. I'm currently checking out the Bosch Compact as recommended by tikidoc. I generally bake either two loaves or about a dozen rolls every weekend and I'm afraid after my first experience that the KA simply won't stand up for long.
The KA my wife bought was $200 after the black friday sale and is still within the return period. If I go with the compact, I'll probably purchase it directly from www.boschmixers.com, the compact is $199 and free shipping, so it will be a straight up trade.
The Bosch Compact seems to get pretty favorable reviews on other sites as well when it comes to kneading bread. Any other opinions on this mixer for regularly kneeding small batches of dough?
I regularly kead 5 pounds of dough in my Bosch compact - with 6 pound batches it tends to climb the hook into the gears. It does equally well with smaller batches.
It does a superb job even with fairly low hydration doughs. The machine only just gets warm and I've had no problems with it "walking" on the counter.
The thing is very light & looks like a toy but it is much sturdier than any KA & does a much better job. I highly recommend it. Patsy
I was in the habit of shipping busted KA Pros back to the factory on a fairly regular basis till I changed the style of dough production.
The KA is used to mix the dough on speed 2 - that's all the mixer is needed for. You can clean it up and put it away. After a hydration rest the dough is split into loaves followed by stretch and folds every 30 minutes for at least an hour and a half. Protein sheath loaf forming is performed after each stretch and fold - the loaf is then placed back into a proofing oven at 90 deg F. The loaf is then placed into a proofing basket and inserted into a plastic bag and proofed for another 1.5 - 2.0 hours after which is left to retard at 38 deg F for 12 hours - the bread is baked straight from refrigeration into a 500 deg F oven cloached with a misted stainless steel steam tray pan.
Of course the last time I said something like this two weeks later a new KA was on its way via warranty coverage - so far the motor does not become hot. The real give away is the smell of burning insulation - definite indication of a trip back to the factory. In short the KA Pro is now an accepted and reliable piece of equipment used on a regular basis.
The resulting Pain auLevain is the best we've experienced and it uses a lot less power than the previous "beat it into submission" method...,
Wild-Yeast
Hmm, while I see your point, for less money than the KA Pro (I have one, dead, in my shed), I can have a less cool looking but much more functional Bosch Compact. I can do all the things I used to do with my KA (egg whites, whipped cream, cookies, cakes), I can do the pain au levain method you mention, but I also can make the recipes that require "beating the dough into submission". All without heating up or giving off burning plastic odors. I want a machine that I don't have to worry about babying. I also have an Electrolux, but that cost quite a bit more than the KA. But I plan on using both machines for many, many years, and I don't have to baby either (other than watching so the Bosch doesn't walk off the table).
I would go for a mixer model that uses a spiral dough hook. It kneads much better and with less strain and motor heating on the mixer than the "J" shaped dough hook.
.
The spiral dough hook presses the dough into the bottom of the bowl and kneads back and forth through it.
.
The "J" hook beats the dough against the side of the bowl and the dough climbs up the hook.
.
These YouTube videos show how each dough hook handles the dough during kneading.
.
.
Kitchenaid with Spiral Dough Hook
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSi2F4KUVF8
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-oDTmgKF80
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdpvpxnIuEs
.
.
Kitchenaid with "J" Dough Hook
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AZmJ0y1s4
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRPDXe02G9w
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ngieRWWFs
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEA4Pq0B5Pg
.
.
I have a Kitchenaid 5-qt bowl lifter model that came with a "J" hook and I found a KA Spiral hook that fits it. My mixer runs cooler and with much less motor strain while using the spiral dough hook. The spiral hook seems to develop the dough faster and with less heating of the dough than the "J" dough hook.
.
Has anyone heard that one (1) mins of kneading wth kitchenaid is equal to ten (10) mins of hand kneading?
That sounds like very little time for kneading.
Can you start and stop kneading with a kitcheaid or must it be all be done during one episode.
Thank you