January 2, 2012 - 1:58pm
"fixing" a starter gone chessy
My starter is of local organic small white grapes and bread flour. It's a couple years old.
In the last month or so, it has gone a bit "cheesy" and is slow to "activate".
Normally I feed with bread flour and hot water 1/.75 or so. Then I put in the oven with the light on and it would usuually activate in an hour or so.
Took 8 hours to activate this time, and it wasn't like it has been.
Can this be fixed with some rye flour for a couple feeds and/or some OJ or cider?
The resultant bread is OK, but it lacks the rise of it's former self.
Now barly a half inch over the edge of the pan, when it was 1 to 1/12 inches over the top.
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how often do you feed? I'm assuming you're "activating" it after it's been starving in the fridge for a while.
Try feeding 2x per day at a ratio of 1:1 flour-to-water, by weight. Save only about 1 tablespoon during each feed.
Keep your starter at room temp during this process. Repeat it for 5-10 days. Eventually the smell should go away, and your starter should return to its vigorous self.
I prefer not to "spike" my starter with rye or whole wheat, although this works for some. If you want to try this, save an extra tablespoon of your existing starter, and feed it with some rye in a separate container.
I believe you may have some undesirable overgrowth of another microbe. I have recovered my starter from this in the past but it can be difficult and time consuming. You will know within the first couple days whether it will work.
You need to take about a teaspoon or so from the bottom of the current starter (the most likely place to find healthy yeasts), put it in a clean jar and mix it with a few tablespoons flour and water to achieve a batter-like consistency. Use cool to tepid water only-not hot. Then, every 24 hours for 2-3 days, discard half of this small amount starter and repeat the feeding. It should start to show activity by the 2nd or 3rd day. Once it shows good activity, start feeding 2-3 times a day-continuing with the heavy discard for a few more days. Once you have confidence that the starter is reacting normally,go back to a normal feeding schedule to build up a normal amount. It should smell and behave normally. If this heavy washing fails, most likely it will not show any activity right from the start or it will continue to grow the cheesy (I call it gym sock) smell.
When you refresh/feed your starter, there is no reason to use warm/hot water. Just use room temp water. You are less likely to have a problem.
cranbo's post appeared while I wasa composing and is a good alternative way to go,also. There are many ways to solve these kinds of issues. Cranbo raises an important question, though, about the starter feeding schedule. I have 2 recommendations: 1. I would recommend to feed or activate your starter at least once a week (Discard and feed,wait til noticeably active and re-refrigerate) and 2. I would feed/activate your starter longer before you need it so you don't have to force activate it. It will behave better for you and stay healthier.
cranbo, i am guilty of what you said about starving the starter in the fridge and reviving from time to time. i just don't get all the ratios and percentages and feeding and building etc etc so on one hand, i really don't want to jus throw it away and stuff it, and on the other, its jus sitting in my fridge mostly forgotten and neglected. any advice?
Hi rolls,
First off: don't throw it away, it's so much easier to revive it, feed it for a while, and set it back in the fridge. i am "guilty" of starter neglect too, because i haven't been baking that often lately.
Second, you don't have to sweat the feed ratios if you don't want to. You only need to care as much as you care about having consistent dough behavior and bread results. If you're happy with the consistency of your baked products, don't change a thing! In fact, I usually eyeball feeding my starter these days: a heaping 1/3 or 1/2 cup of flour, a few splashes of water, mix into a fairly stiff dough (definitely not like a batter). I prefer to maintain my starter on the firm side. If I'm trying a new recipe, I might feed the starter more exactly, ie., according to the ratios specified in the recipe. This is to eliminate variables caused by different starter hydrations, starter strength, etc.
Finally, you should pay some attention to your starter. I wouldn't let it go 3 months without feeding in the fridge, but even then it would probably survive just fine. If I can't bake regularly with it, mine sits in my fridge for 4 weeks, maybe 6 weeks, and then I feed it for 3-5 days until it gets happy again.
Again, feeding regularly is about creating consistent behavior with your starter, so if you're happy with how consistent your starter is behaving and how your breads are turning out, don't change a thing.
Happy new year and happy baking!
I hate to throw all that away, prolly 12z right now. Would it work with a couple tbsp refeed (flour & water) or does it need more to activate?
I usually bake every couple weeks and for years I had no problem, even letting it go 2 months. I'd stir back in the hootch and feed to activate as normal.
This last time was no longer than a month. Something got scwewy.
Room temp this time of year is around 60F.
Feeding starter is all about ratios. It's why throwing out part of your starter (or using it for something else) is so important. If your start is 12 ounces, you'll probably need to add at least 12 ounces of flour and 12 ounces of water, if you don't want to start by throwing any out. It's your flour and water, you're welcome to do whatever you like with it, but exponential expansion gets out of hand really quick. If you don't feed your starter enough - as the ratio of fresh dough to starter, your starter starves too soon.
Darxus is right, ratios are important, so are how much starter you save. You only need to save very little!
Here are my feeding directions for re-building a healthy starter.
1 cup of flour (125-140g) + 1/2 cup of water (118g) will give you closer to the 100% hydration level that is useful for most recipes.
isn't that gonna make a pretty thick starter?
Mine is usually like pancake batter or so.
I've sset out a heaping tbsp and here we go.
Yes, your starter will be thicker, that's OK. As I said earlier, this starter will be more in line with the hydration of most doughs. You'll likely never get any hooch this way.
If you have a pet, you need to feed it on a regular basis and clean its cage. Your pet can live a long time if you feed it irregularly and don't clean its cage but it may not be the healthiest creature and may be too weak to fight off other pets trying to occupy its cage.That is what happens when a starter is left to starve in the refrig. The reason it is relatively easy to revive is that some of the little beasties actually curl up and go dormant. When the environment improves, they wake up and grow-right next to the other beasties that tried to occupy the space.
As far as ratios-I figure the miners in the field didn't worry about ratios too much and some of their cultures have been going a long time. I keep about 2-3 ounces of starter (if I pay attention)in a jar.I usually bake 1 x per week and use some of the starter in a preferment by adding 2 tbsp starter to 1 c flour and 1 c water the evening before a bake and letting that sit overnight on the counter.I then replenish my starter, by throwing about 2 oz flour and enough water to make a thick batter into the starter jar with the remaining starter. Let it sit out for an hour and then refrigerate til next week. If I decide not to bake that week, I discard about half the starter,add the flour and water,stir,set for an hour and put back in the refrig. So every week the pet gets fed whether I bake or not.
I have left my starters sit in the refrig for prolonged times a few times and every time, they work for a while as they slowly starve to death. Just feed them regularly and they work great for you. Once a week, minimum.
thanks heaps i am off to revive my poor pet now lol. i've never gone longer than couple weeks, however, this time the hooch is a little darker than usual should i jus mix it in and throw half, or maybe pour it out into a clean container, feed and leave on the counter till happy again? if i want to make a bread i hav no idea what to do.
in the past, i've jus added a bit of the starter to my usual doughs a long with instant yeast. i'd love to try it without commercial yeast at all. my starter is a few months old now i think.
thanks :)
Dark or light hooch doesn't matter. Personally I like to pour off the hooch.
The fact that you have so much hooch means that your starter may be a bit too watery. I never get hooch on any of my starters. A 100% hydrated starter doesn't typically produce hooch.
I recommend this:
1 cup of flour (125-140g) + 1/2 cup of water (118g) will give you closer to the 100% hydration level that is useful for most recipes.
FYI, you can scale the amount of flour and water down accordingly, if you want to waste less during feeding: feed that 1 heaping tablespoon of starter with 1/4 cup water and 1/2 cup flour. Always save a heaping tablespoon of starter, regardless of feed quantity.
thank you very much cranbo for the detailed response. it was very helpful to me and i now feel like i understand more about the ratios and stuff.
i wish i had read your response first!! i usually pour off the hooche but this time i don't know what got into me and i just stirred it back in, discarded half and placed it in a clean new bowl, added flour and water, without measuring. mixed and covered and left out on the counter. i really hope it survives again. it was previously in a plastic container and was doing fine. i will feel so disappointed if it doesnt get all active again :(
guess i will have to wait till tomorrow morning to find out....
thanks again, appreciate it.
What to do with hooch is another thing I'd like to see some science on. I believe it's alcohol, which I believe is a very important step in the metabolization of wheat into all the various substances we want in sourdough. Particularly the sourness.
All the comments about miners and cowboys not worrying about ratios are lovely, but I bet those folks got to know the care and feeding of a starter very closely from somebody who knew what they were doing, instead of learning on their own. While I agree it's not important to measure them out, I think it would give you the advantage of consistency while you're trying to learn what works. The important part, I believe, is just that the fresh dough (flour + water) you add must be (roughly) at *least* double as much as the old dough / starter you're mixing it with, when you feed your starter.
If the amount of starter you're keeping is 12 times as much, by any measure, as the fresh flour + water you're feeding it, it's not going to work out. The yeast and bacteria will starve.
And I' d be really surprised if your starter can't be revived. What we try to achieve is basically a natural inevitiability. As long as we keep feeding it, we get the yeast and the bacteria we want. The only question, I think, is if the microbes we want can take over from whatever you have in there that turned it cheesy. And I believe the answer is yes, because that environment, when properly fed, is very hostile for everything else.
I don't know if you'd like to understand ratios better or not, but I thin the common starter feeding ratio, when using refridgeration, is 1:1:1. That means even weights of old starter, water, and flour. Preferably by weight. But by volume (tablespoons / cups) will work.
Thanks. I'd never thought of ratio like this. I am trying it now as it does make a lot of sense.
And the odd thing is, this is how I've been keeping my pizza starter that is just AP flour and water, and a pinch of rye and ww in the beginning.
Well jus checked on my starter it is not dead :)
Itsa bit bubbly/foamy on top. Where to from here?
How long has your starter been sitting at room temp now?
Your starter should sit about 8-12 hours, then follow the feed directions I posted earlier in this thread.
It's been sitting overnight and its looking a lot better.
I haven't measured though. And it's a liquid starter. So can I still follow ur directions? Sorry Im a big beginner wen it comes to SD. Should I scoop out a cup or something n work on that?
Then, if I want to use it to bake bread how do I build it up? I'll try post a pic :)
well, not sure if im doing the right thing, but took out 100g of starter and fed 50g water and 50g flour, and after 8 hours, will feed 100g of each flour + water, and then 8 hours after that will feed 200g of each flour + water, which should give me 800g of starter? so then i should be able to use half of this to get a dough ready for a loaf?
depending on if it seems active and happy?
i put the remainding in the fridge for back up.
will wait and see what happens.......:)
Cranbo I've jus re read ur instructions and going to try on d remaining starter I left in d fridge. Of it gets too hectic wiv two starters I'll jis freeze or giv one away
Jus a quick question. Is it normal fir my starter to rise and then sink again?
I hav no idea if it's ready yet to make a bread but I hav a good feeling and going to try soon. Want to build it up wiv one more feed and then jus go ahead and try.
Does anyone direct me to a recipe to try first time?
Yup. Starter size starts to drop when the yeast starts running out of food and dieing. I get the impression the point where it changes direction is about the best time to use / feed it.
thank you so much :) i have to get this timing thing right. i did feed it. had to move it to a bigger container and it seems all bubbly and happy. want to make a dough from it this evening.
the bourke st bakery book says to save 100g for next batch and use bout 400g for the bread, which should give bout three loaves. and to that 100g of reserved starter, you would feed it 50g each of flour and water.
i've noticed a lot of people on this forum, use cup measurements. maybe this is easier? and use about one cup at a time of starter i guess this is for one loaf, or two small?
i would like to get into a regular routine where i can do this without thinking too much bout it lol.
btw, i think i have 800g of starter now :)
Measuring by grams is highly recommended instead of cups, because weight is more consistent. Cups can vary significantly due to varying compression depending on how you scoop out your flour.
cool. i did reserve the 100g of starter suggested, and immediately fed it 50g each of flour and water and left it out. with the excess sourdough i mixed up a batch of belgian waffle batter. found recipe on this forum, sourdough thread. not that i have a waffle machine but anyways, lol.
also, very excited. just mixed up the dough from bourke st bakery, for white sourdough loaves. has anyone made this before. i feel like mines on the wet side, did not get window pane. but going to stretch and fold a few times so hopefully it'll be okay?
do i leave it to bulk proof overnight? its already quite late here, down under.
I followed the recipe but didn't get to do the second S & F before I slept. At dawn, I noticed it had actually tripled in size!! :):):) but then I did a S & F, was that dumb? Did I jus waste all that lovely air that had been in there?
Sorry, but for some reason with sourdough I feel like I need to be walked thru it u know? Lol
cranbo. This worked pretty well. Todays dough. Fridge rise at 2 hours in this shot.
Thanks,
metropical, looks great!
Is this a whole wheat bread with molasses? That loaf already looks ready to bake.
Let us know how it turned out, what you liked, and what you didn't.
also, does this mean the cheesy smell is now gone?
it's a few grains, ww, rye, bread, oats, wheat berries, rye berries, quinoa, black patent malt, & Munton dark malt extract is what gibes it the molasses look.
It prolly is ready to bake, but I usually give them a 6 to 8 hour fridge rise time, for no good reason.
It's a bread I've made for years, though the starter is different than my original.
The bit of starter that I saved isn't cheesy at all.
The bulk of it's former is. I will try to revive it bit by bit and use for successive loaves or, once I've cleared it of cheesy; waffles if I have an excess.
To be perfectly honest, I didn't follow your route entirely, but more or less the same idea. Took about 4 days until I was ready to take a shot.
Since this bread is destined for a neighbor that helped me wrap up the fig pots for winter, I'm glad it's looking this good even before the bake.
funny, doesn't look much different then the unbaked dough.
Actually it took on about an inch of oven spring. I'm sure the recipient will dig it much.