starter Help!!
Ive been hanging around here for about 2 weeks now... i am new to making bread and i am getting BBA soon.. But i decided that i would try a sourdough starter anyway. so i started off with 1 Tbsp of WW and 1 water (day one: saw nothing) 2 tbsp WW and 2 water (day 2) nothing... 4 tbsp WW and water (day 3: print pickle (my sourdough starter) stinks like there is no tomorow.. but i havent seen him rise or deflate or nothing.. there is a layer of liquid on top ... im assuming hooch). So everyday im feeding him as my book says and i dont see him move or anything.. just the clear liquid that keep forming and he still stink.. oh and i see a few bubbles but i dont know if it is just air from me stirring the food in..
I keep print pickle on my stovetop with the light on low above the stove.. My house gets cold at night (as i am in the north) so the temp is about 60 F where he stays..
Should i throw it out.. what am a doing wrong? Any advice..
I have looked in alot of threads and have not found any answers if i need to be redirected please do :)
thank you so much!
Julie
Check out Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice Starter method. I have found this to work every time and skips the stinky phase. If you want to keep using the one you started, you have to keep feeding it and not let it starve enough to get the hooch. It takes time to get the stink out, and I always hated that part.
For what it's worth, this is now Peter Reinharts recommended method (not what you find in BBA).
thank you for both the responses.. i just read that chlorine will kill the yeast? There is ALOT of cholrine this time of year in the tap water.. do you think this could be why its not rising? If it is... why am i getting hooch?
I don't think it is the chlorine, but you could try bottle water to eliminate that possibility. Really what I think you are seeing is just water with the flour settled to the bottom. But without a picture it is hard to say. It could be a little hooch mixed in there as well. You have stinky starter (I assume it is not like alcohol or acetone, but more of a vomit smell). So you are going through the Leuconostoc phase (I think that is the spelling and the name but it is at least something close to that). This doesn't last long, but the stink takes time to remove. If I were you I would feed it some rye. There are a lot of the yeast critters in rye. Feed 60g starter with 30g water and 30g rye every 24 hours (or so) until you get a rise (if using ounces just use 2 oz starter, 1 oz water, and 1 oz rye). Just discard the extras so you have 60g of starter to add to the new water and flour each time. I would also use a new container each time for now. Just rotate between 2 of them and rinse them out well in between. Or mix in a bowl and clean out the container before returning the mixture.
Once you get a rise, then you can start using white flour (or WW, or whatever kind of starter you are keeping). Start with the 2:1:1 ratio and watch for the peak. Once if starts to fall, feed it again. If it is falling too early for you, then you need to start feeding more. But we can discuss that more later. For now, let's get that starter going. If you are only a few days into it, I personally would start over with the pineapple juice method, but there is no reason you can't continue trying to get this one to work if you would rather do that instead. Keep us informed.
Sorry I chose to disagree. Chlorine is added to tap water to kill bacteria. Do I have to say more? All (good) books about sourdough do state that you should make sure you do not use chlorinated water.
Cheers
Peter
Chlorine is often (but not always:-) added to tap water at such low levels that it doesn't interfere with yeasts hardly at all (hence the common experiential report that chlorine doesn't seem to be a problem for person X). But there really are a couple common problems: First, levels of chlorine vary dramatically from one water supplier to the next (and even one well to the next), and there are lots and lots of water suppliers. So even though you only move a few miles, chances are very good the "tap" water isn't the same as it was before. And second, water suppliers fairly frequently change the level of chlorine they add dramatically (more than half/double!) without telling you at all (they apparently have no legal obligation to inform their consumers). So your "tap" water today is sometimes very different from your "tap" water yesterday, even though it looks the same.
It seems that by far the easiest way to tell whether chlorine is interfering with your yeast is to try using bottled mineral water and see what happens. (Avoid "distilled water", as the over-pureness [specifically the lack of trace metals] is hard on yeasts.)
Chlorine can be removed either by many water filters or by letting the water sit out overnight. But about one fifth of the water suppliers in the U.S. now use chloramine instead (and this problem will only grow). Chloramine at higher concentrations is similarly destructive of yeasts. Unfortunately neither of the methods for removing chlorine work at all on chloramine too. You can usually find information published yearly by the water supplier that will tell whether they use chlorine or chloramine. If they use chloramine, and it sometimes harms your yeasts, bottled mineral water is the only solution I know of.
thanks for that...
up here they add even more chlorine during fall and spring... so much that you can smell it when you open the taps and let the water run or it is in a glass or bottle... and here we are in fall :)
I am also a newbie to sourdough starters, and had the same first attempt results trying the BBA method. The pineapple juice method really does work. I started doing Debra Wink's method last weekend, and now have a thriving community growing in my starter jar! It really does work. I will try my first bread this weekend.
Good Luck!
Hi and welcome!
If you are using equal amounts, tablespoons, or volume measure (instead of weight) more than likely, the mixture is too thin to rise. Give it a second or third Tbs of flour until it looks thick enough to trap gas bubbles. Then it may rise. I don't think you have hooch, just separated water.
thanks again for all the responses... i fed print pickle this morning at 8 and it is now 1231 and there is no change in rise or anything like that... so i will restart with rye flour, pineapple juice and spring water... and ill see how it goes.. oh and ill weight my ingredients
:)
Julie
Oh goodness! how did I miss that! Honey, we got to get that little print pickle into a warmer spot! Got a big baggy sweater with pockets? or a vest ? put him into a zip bag and press the air out and tuck him into your pocket to keep warm. Open the bag every few hours to let the gas out and air in, then press the bag shut and put em back into your pocket. It's like hatching an egg. Can you park him near your computer to keep warm?
ive put him directly under my stove lights and the lights on high and i put a thermometer in him to see what the temps are like.. right now he's at 64F..
He wants a wool baselayer, a wind jacket, some booties, and a cup of warm tea.
(Put him in the same closet that houses your hot-water heater, which never wants tea, unless it's iced.)
my hot water tank room is not very warm... print pickle is at 76F now.. no rising or bubbles ... doesnt smell anymore thought...
76 is a great temperature for a starter! I know that it was 60 at night, but what is the temperature during the day? I assumed that it was warm enough.
If the stink is gone, I might be inclined to just start feeding this one Rye and water, and forget starting over. Just be sure to weigh it. Good job getting it up to an ideal temperature. One more thing that helps is to give it a stir a few times a day when it is new. This gets some oxygen that helps the yeast out. It is not critical, but seems to help in some cases.
It might be worth starting a second one with the pineapple juice method (be sure to follow Debra Wink's directions). As a first starter, it really helps to have a method that is as easy as that one. It still takes a couple of weeks. The next part is maintenance, and there are several methods you can use for that. But let's get this one going first.
actually i dont know what it is like during the night but it was 60 during the day...
how much rye and water ( just to make sure)
He is starting to foam.. can only assume that it is a good thing?
I have started a pinapple juice one a few hours ago (just in case)
thanks for everything
so print pickle was at 74F all night and i saw that he rose and then went back down... lots of foam on top. Should i empty half of him and refead him?
Yes, he needs to be fed. How does it smell? Once they start going back down, that means they have peaked and it is time to feed again. Do you know what hydration you want to keep? You can always change later.
I personally would start with 100% hydration (by weight of course). It just makes the math easier, so if you accidentally put in too much water or flour you can easily correct this. Try a 2:1:1 ratio (starter:water:flour) and check to see what it looks like in 12 hours. Better yet, check every 4 hours if you can so you can gauge when the peak happens. If it still hasn't fallen by the time you go to bed, you can just leave it until morning. If it peaks before the 12 hours, then you know you need to feed more the next time around. The amounts are up to you, but I would think keeping close to 100g or 4 oz. of total starter is about right at this point. So you could weigh out 60g starter and add 30g of water, mix it up to dissolve the starter, then add 30g of flour and stir (or 2 oz starter, 1 oz of water, and 1 oz of flour). This would be too little food once your starter is really going, but is a good point to begin with.
To answer your question above about "how much rye" (although it looks like you don't need the rye in this one right now)... Basically, just doing one feeding with rye instead of the flour you normally use should be enough to kick start a sluggish starter.
p.s. Should I just assume you are using grams going forward?
i will be using grams, set a time for 4 hours to see how he does... he smells decent. no vomit smell anymore just a odd yesty smell.. nothing bad.
sorry for being so pesky but thank you for all your help. everyday do the amounts of food increase till i get to a certain amount... i should do some more research on that..
thanks again !!
Julie
Once your starter is going, then you will need to maintain it in one of a million different ways (well, maybe not THAT many). There are really 2 questions you need to answer:
1) What hydration do you want to keep you starter? This starts with figuring out if you want a firm or more liquid/batter starter. This helps narrow it down a bit. One way of deciding is by thinking about how you are going to use it. I noticed you are looking at BBA as your source of formulas. So, you might decide to keep it the way he does in that book. Or maybe there is a specific recipe out there that you are going to perfect and use that hydration. Otherwise, you might decide that you want to be able to ask questions of specific people and therefore use what they do.
2) How often do you want to feed? If you can manage feeding every 12 hours, then leave it on the counter and feed accordingly. If you only want to deal with it any longer than 24 hours, then you need to refrigerate it.
For now, feeding every 12 hours should be the goal. Assuming a 100% hydration starter, this is how I would proceed (and this is NOT the only way):
If the starter is not strong enough to double and peak in 12 hours with a 2:1:1 ratio, then keep feeding until it does. By feeding, I mean you should wait for it to begin to fall, discard the extra, and feed the proper amount of flour and water. With a 2:1:1 ratio, you are feeding enough to double the amount of starter each time. In the long run, this will be most likely peak in about 4 hours at this ratio. If that was the case, then you would try a 1:1:1 ratio (thus tripling the amount of starter). If that didn't last 12 hours (more likely 8 hours), then you would go to 1:2:2 (now 5 times the amount of starter). Then if that is not enough, go to 1:3:3, etc. This might change with weather and temperature, but is how you figure out the amount of food needed.
Here is an example:
You decide to keep about 100g of starter at all times. You also decide to use 100% hydration. Furthermore, you decide to feed every 12 hours. It is 8 AM, and your starter has peaked and has begun to fall. So it is feeding time. You take out 60g of starter, add 30g of water and 30g of flour. After 8 hours (4 PM) you see it is feeding time again. So you need to try a larger feeding this time. You decide to try a 1:1:1 feeding. So you take out 30g of starter, add 30g of water and 30g of flour (yes this is 90g total, but that is close enough to 100g). You wake up and check on your starter at 8 AM. You can tell by the starter stuck to the glass that it peaked in the night, but now it is almost back to where it started (I use a piece of masking tape to mark where it is after mixing each time). The fact that it fell that far means that it peaked at quite a bit less than 16 hours. But you are aiming for 12 hours, so that is okay and you feed a 1:1:1 again (after discarding the extra first). This time it peaked at 10 hours. So you try a 1:2:2 feeding (20g starter: 40g water: 40g flour). This 1:2:2 works great for a week, but then you notice that it is not enough (after all, your starter is stronger now). So you go to a 1:3:3 feeding (15g starter:45g water: 45g flour).
Hope that makes sense. By the way, my house is colder at night, so right now I feed 1:3:3 during the day, and 1:2:2 at night. We had a heat spell a couple weeks ago and I was feeding 1:4:4 during the day and 1:3:3 at night. In between I was doing 1:3:3 day and night. What this means is that you need to "listen" to your starter and let it dictate the feedings. If you always follow the clock and don't look at the signs the starter is giving you, you might have problems. Once it is more established, it should be more regular and you will know how to feed it.
Finally, don't ever think you are being pesky here. An exchange of information is what this board is about.
Maverick
hi,
so i put a timer on for 4 hours and i checked him and he went up 50% his original size (60g-30g-30g) and i marked it and i left him. Came back from the gym (8 hours) from feeding and he was below his original start point. So i fed him again... (assuming that was the right thing to do... same thing as before)
I will be getting BBA in 2 weeks or so i dont have it yet... I dont have a plan yet for what kind of hydration i would like to make some plain ol' bread and try some pancakes :)
your explanations make sense and i am learning lots...
Julie
Feeding was correct as it had peaked. It seems to be acting like a normal starter now. I would go with a 1:1:1 (30g:30g:30g) ratio on the next feeding and see how long it takes to start to fall. Keep it up and let us know.
edit: I just wanted to add that you do not have to go for a 12 hour feeding schedule. The most vigorous starter I ever had was fed on an 8 hour schedule. I couldn't keep up with that schedule and the 12 hour ones have always been plenty vigorous for me. I have used a 24 hour feeding schedule (feeding a good deal more during the feeding), but I did not prefer the results. I have had mixed success with refrigeration schedules only because I am not as attuned to the starter when it is refrigerated and I defer to others if you want to do that. I do put it in the refrigerator when I go away on trips though.
after his 8pm feed, he went up 50% after 2 hours and then more thru the night (looks like not quite double, almost) and he is coming down now. so i will do that ratio and see how he handles it :)
When do you think i can start using him for bread? another week or so?
thanks!
:)
You can probably use it in a few days, depending on how things go. For me, 2 weeks from Day 1 of the starter has always given the best results. But since it is rising and does not smell, Mini Oven is right in that you might be able to use it earlier (once it is doubling). One thought would be to start with something like Sourdough English Muffins (which can be done easily with a young starter). Another thought is a sourdough/commercial yeast hybrid where you add a little bit of commercial starter for insurance (or just add some discard into a commercial yeast bread recipe you like in order to add a little extra flavor). Or you could just go for it and try something out. I would give it a few more days first (or at least a couple).
so i fed him at 1000 1:1:1 by 1147 he went up by 50% and by 1230 he doubled and came down at about 6-7 and fed him at 9 ... he smells like a starter.. better than yesterday
i will try pancakes and the engilsh muffins sounds good as well ..
thanks!
Got up this morning at 630 and print pickle had more than doubled and is falling (about 50%) to where he started... yeee...
Good job! You might want to try a 1:2:2 feeding tonight (maybe 20g starter: 40g water: 40g flour).
so today i didnt feed him yet as he hasnt totally come down... .. ill do the 1:2:2 tonight and maybe that will be good for him...
thanks!
You don't have to wait until it totally comes down. In fact my personal recommendation is feeding earlier than that if possible. I believe that once it starts to fall is the optimum time to feed if you want a really vigorous starter. There is nothing wrong with waiting longer, but some of the yeast might start the process of going dormant which means it will take longer for them to wake up. By feeding at the beginning of the fall, the yeast will always be at the highest levels.
Like I said, this is just the way I recommend feeding based on my understanding of the science behind the whole thing. There are very many ways to maintain the starter and I would say that almost all of them are perfectly viable ways of doing it. I don't want you to think that I am saying what you are doing is wrong. Just that based on my understanding and experience this is what I do and recommend (especially with a new starter).
Congratulations on your new starter. I can't wait to see what you make with it.
cant wait!
Brilliant! We can't wait to hear (and see?) how your first loaf goes??
good luck!
thanks!
Cant wait to share :)
my pancakes were really good ill give a few more days before i make some bread!
print pickle isnst raising anymore... :( did i over feed him.. he was doing so good... i fed him a 1:2:2 2 days ago and then last night i only fed him a 1:1:1 as he didnt double or anything like that... maybe he will perk up?
where his rise is in direct correlation with food and temp. 1:2:2 is a big step with cool temps. Don't discard and feed, just add a little flour to get him thru the 12 hours and a little water if you want to, and let him come around to rising. Let him rise and fall and then discard back to a small amount and feed.
:) Mini
he is under my oven lights so hes about 76 all day and night.. i think my problem is that i feed him at night and i only rely on what i see in the morning and the traces on the side of the bowl. Is there a way that i can shift his feeding time from 10 pm to 8 am without scaring him too much..
ill do that thank!
Julie
and keep him warm, then turn off the lights when you go to bed and don't feed him. The temp will drop to 60°F and he will slow down considerably. Then in the morning discard and feed letting him be warm all day. Try it for a few days. Might work out well for you! But first, let's get him to rise again. (If he tastes sour, then he's sneaked one past you.)
Mini
Try stirring it for a minute a few times during the day. This helps wake up the yeast. It brings oxygen, redistributes some of the food, and releases some of the byproducts (like punching down or degassing a dough). I actually will do this when I can't get to my starter at the normal time. I just give it a good stir and it will rise again (sometimes even higher).
ok thanks!
Keep us updated.
print pickle will be baked probally tomorow and ill post a picture.. :)
thanks for all your help.. off to do my ciabata bread... :)
so i kneeded my dough in my kitchenaid and it is very smooth and glossy and so sticky... is this normal? how am i going to shape a loaf with that?
suggestions?
What recipe and procedure are you using? Most "traditional" sourdough breads are high in hydration in order to get the big holes. If you wet your hands they won't stick to the dough.
it is some random recipe in one of my baking cookbooks... but i did add a bit of flour while kneeding and still looked glassy and smooth and really sticky so i decided to leave it the way it was and see what happens (read somewhere that that texture was good... ) let it rise and this morning it more than doubled... (i guess print pickle works) so i will bake it once its room temp and see what happens... :)
so i baked print pickle... it spread out more thatn i thought it would... but somehow maintained a boule shape. The crust browned much faster than all my other breads.
It definantly has a tang to it as the end.. but it has a "before" taste... it taste like my starter smells... cant quite describe it.. it is moist and chewy (not too chewy but different kind of chewy) the loaf itself is heavy... and its still warm a bit so it might be different tomorow...
here are a few pics...
as a whole
Ive never had homemade sourdough what should i be looking for in texture and whatnot... how can i make this better and fluffier?
thanks for input
my scoring is awful.. i guess my blade wasnt sharp enough as i could not get thru the dough...
It looks like a good start and sounds delicious. What is the hydration of the recipe? What flour did you use? Sourdough bread (as opposed to bread made with "sourdough" or wild yeast) is usually chewy. If you use a lower protein flour, you can make it less chewy. Also, the shot of your crumb looks a little "even". There are some nice holes in there, but everything seems fairly uniform. That could be just this slice, or it could be the hydration (or proofing, or extra kneading, or a few other things). Higher hydration usually leads to the "large, irregular" holes that we try to get with a sourdough bread.
Remember that you can use the starter for any bread. If you share the details of what you made (recipe, technique, observations, etc) there are many here that can help you improve the results. Like I said, it looks pretty good. I am glad your starter is going strong now.
the recipe calls for
5 C. flour (I use Robin Hood)
1 1/2 cup water
2 C. Expanded starter (which is at 100% hydration)
1 tsp salt.
no you are right the hole are pretty much even thruought the loaf except for a few big ones here and there... I added flour during the kneeding because i thought that it was too wet. I did not stretch and fold during the rising of the dough (i dont know how but ill look it up.)
i will keep sharing thanks again for all your help :)
so my starter is doing good and i thought i would try a 1:2:2 yesterday and he tripled within a few hours and has not come down yet (he is not in the fridge) its been 24 hrs.. should i feed it, leave it alone, should i wait for him to come down?
thank you!
Julie
:)
same 1:2:2 or should i go back to 1:1:1?
Given the age of your starter and the fact that it was tripling with the 1:2:2 feeding, I would say continue with the 1:2:2 ratio as long as you are keeping it warm.
ok, thanks
A good first loaf! You can be proud!
So I guess you noticed the differences between sourdough dough and "regular" dough. They do behave differently.
With the next loaf, try folding the dough more often once it starts to rise. This will help with the shape.
The next tip is subtle but rather important. If you don't already, Keep track of the top of your loaf. Make sure you stretch and fold the dough away from the top and overlap on the bottom. No matter what you do while stretching and folding, when resting the dough, the top "skin" should be UP. Keeping the top taunt and well shaped will make your loaves and scores (if needed) look better. Cutting with the blade angled so as to cut a flap of dough will also give the score a more interesting look. Try it and see.
Enough said. Go for it! Waiting for that second loaf!
yes i have.. a bit more tricky :)
i did not stretch and fold with this loaf... but i will with the next one, i will learn the stretch and fold.
thanks for the tip.. i did not know that...
Looking for a little guidance with this South San Francisco sourdough starter I have. I am ashamed to say that I got it 2 months ago, and forgot about it in the refrigerator. Smelled it today...sour and beery, gelatinous but no liquid. So...can I assume that it has gone dormant, and just feed it? And if so, any feeding recommendations? Thatnks ahead of time!
Dave.
I would say that it should be able to come back without problem. It might take a few feedings to get it not quite so "beery", but as long as it isn't moldy you should be good (even then, if you scrape the mold off it should be okay).
As for recommended feeding, you can read my thoughts on that above. Basically I would say to start with 100% hydration (by weight). Given that this has been dormant for a bit, I would start with a 2:1:1 ratio every 12 hours for a day or two (mix 20g starter with 10g water, then mix in 10g of flour... or 2 ounces starter with 1 ounce water and 1 ounce flour if you use ounces instead of grams). Be sure to stir it a few times a day to get ther air and extra food to the yeast. Then report back how it reacted. If it is falling too quickly then a 1:1:1 can be fed. I have to feed my newest starter a minimum of 1:3:3 in order to maintain a 12 hour feeding on the counter (72 deg. F in my house). I am trying a 1:4:4 tonight because it doesn't quite make the 12 hour mark.
Make sure your container has room for the expansion. My starter quadruples (plus a little more) every time. I was using 20g of starter until it got strong enough to need the 1:3:3 ratio. Now I use 10g starter. This starter is only about 6 weeks old (maybe less). I made some nice Norwich Sourdough with it today.
feed the yeast cells that are protected under the starter near the bottom of the old sample. Pour off or remove most of the hooch on top to get to the lower layers. After removing a sample to feed, close up the old starter and return to the fridge as back up in case this newly fed starter doesn't work.
After feeding the sample of starter let it stand at least 24 hours and then, do not discard. Just add more water and food for several days until some bubbles start to appear. If you start out with a small sample in the beginning, like a heaping teaspoon or two, the the flour amounts are not big. just keep the ratios. Again, speaking in "hours" can be misleading if you have temps under 73°F or 23°C. Once bubbles show up (not caused from stirring) reduce the starter back down to an ounce and feed on a 12 hour basis. When satisfied with feedings and growth, get rid of the old back-up stuff in the fridge. :)
First, I misread ... I was in the middle of a few things and thought it was a couple of weeks, not a couple of months. Second, if it was a couple weeks I would start with 2:1:1 for 24 hours, not 12 hours.
For a couple months, I would treat it more like a new starter. I just read Mini Oven's reply and she gives sound advice. I might stir in the hooch before starting, but it does make sense to discard it instead. I still recommend stirring occasionally to help things along though. Keep us informed.
Dear Maverick and Mini Oven....Many thanks for the helpful commentary regarding my inquery. I look forward to seeing what happens. Again...Thanks!