I think my starter may have made me sick.
Guys I really need some advice. I have been maintaing a starter for about 4 months. I usually bake a few consecutive days a week and keep my starter in the fridge the rest of the time. After I am done using the starter I throw about 80% of it out, refresh it and put it in the fridge. Usually 4 or 5 days later, the night before I bake I take my starter out, again throw out about 80% and feed it. Usually when I take my starter out of the fridge there is a very vinegary or paint thinner smell. This time the smell was a little funky and off. I can't really describe it other than it stayed with you. I didn't think much of it and refreshed the starter as usual (the smell remained after the refresh), made the loaves yesterday, retarded them overnight and baked today. I let the finished loaf cool about 5 hours and ate a few slices. About four hours later I was vomitting. After a good bout I now feel better so I think it is something I ate rather than a bug. I did eat other stuff today, but I want to be 110% sure it is not my starter and I will not make anyone else sick by giving them loaves. What can I do to be absolutely sure I kill anything bad that may have developed in my starter? Some other factors that may make a difference, I have been keeping it in the same jar a while, it has been very hot temp wise here, I feed my starter about a mix of mostly white flour, with some wheat and some rye. Any help would really be appreciated I know you guys are experts.
1. It smelled different and not in a pleasant way -- a bad sign.
2. You cooked with it anyway and got sick.
Seems a no brainer to me. Do not feed that bread to anyone else and make sure you drink plenty of liquids to restore your electrolytes. Food poisoning is no laughing matter. If you continue to feel ill, check with your doctor.
As to the starter, it may have picked up any of many nasty bugs. I would throw it away. The only way to make sure it wasn't what made you sick is to eat some more of the bread. Of course, you then risk more vomiting and perhaps more dire consequences. You might be made seriously ill the second time around requiring a trip to the emergency room or worse.
Agh! So I really have to throw it away and start over? That's unfortunate considering how long it took to really get going. I would hate to do that test and eat more. The worst part is besides the possible food poisoning they are the best loaves I've ever baked haha. I am still relatively new to all this and wasn't sure about the smell since my starter usually produces such a variety of different smells at various stages. Do I need to worry about my linen lined bannetons? I saw someone else mention this in another thead but am I discarding too much each time? How often to I need to clean/change the jar I keep it in? Such a depressing setback for a newbie baker.
I am not qualified to comment on whether your starter made you sick or not. My common sense reaction is that it is unlikely: if your bread proofed normally and you cooked it to an internal temp of 205F, even if there were any bad bugs in there, I can't see how they would have survived that roasting. But I stand to be corrected. Perhaps if organisms can survive hellish depths and temps next to volcanic vents at the bottom of the sea, bugs could survive 50 mins in the oven.
However, I can give you some advice on caring for your starter. Keep your jars clean. I have four identical jars and I rotate them. They get scrubbed with a brush that is used solely for cleaning dough off baking utensils. Then they get washed with hot water and a mild soap solution. They are rinsed thoroughly under running water and get a final rinsing (inside) with some just boiled water out of the kettle. They are dried in a hot air drier then stored in a closed cupboard.
I change jars each time I refresh my starter. It is worth the effort. Trust me.
Don't let gunk build up on your jars. Not only does it look unsightly (you might think of it affectionately as your pet and excuse its less than glamorous looks, but imagine if you were uninitiated into the wonders of sour dough: would you want to eat anything that came out of that gunky bottle) but it is also a sure fire way to get the wrong kind of bugs growing in your starter and cause all manner of problems.
Tell us more about your starter feeding regime: how often do you feed it and at what temperature do you keep and for how long you leave it out of the fridge. Do you let it double before you put it back in the fridge? What percentage of rye to wheat flour? How much water?
Best,
Syd
Syd, it is true my jar is getting kind of gunky :( Your routine for mainting the jar sounds very intense but after tonights little adventure maybe called for! I usually take my jar out of the fridge around 12am, discard 180g leaving about 20-40g (maybe even less) and feed it with 90 grams water, 60 white flour, 20 wheat, and 10 rye. In the morning usually around 8-10am I take the 180 grams out again and build my leaven from it, refeed the jar with 180 grams in the same amounts above, then leave it in a closet till 10pm-12am and repeat the process all over again. I do not let it double before I put it in the fridge again, I feed it as I usually do and put it right back in. Usually by the time I am ready to bake again in about 4-5 days it smells as if it has been working on the flour and there are bubbles on the surface. The temp is probably around 72-80's at the moment with the warm weather we've been having. Thanks for all your help guys I have been really into this it's quite a bummer.
Personally I don't worry about gunky jars, I've never had any issues with this. I've been using the same gunky jar now for 6 months, with no problems. I've never gotten sick from my sourdough.
If your starter is smelling funky and you're not feeding it regularly, it's telling you that it's unhappy and hungry! Feed it regularly (1-2x) per day until the smell goes away and the balance is restored.
If it still smells terrible after feeding 2x per day for 7 days, then there may be a bacterial imbalance. At that point, I would consider trying Debra Wink's Pineapple Solution and aggressive feeding to help restore balance. Also consider a lower hydration starter (60-70%), that can help weed out some nasties. Finally, I've noticed that some flours tend to cause more stink in my starters; I've noticed this with both whole wheat and rye. You could try switching to different manufacturers, fresh bags of flour, or reducing quantities of those flours.
Even if your starter develops mold, just carefully scrape it off, and use 1tbsp of clean starter underneath in a new container to refresh, and feed it until it's healthy and smells good again.
In sum, I wouldn't start over. Some people get squeamish and freak out easily about certain things, I get it. Other people have immune issues, and need to be careful, I get that too. The way I see it, sourdough is a fermented food, just like kimchee, sauerkraut, wine, etc. Naturally fermented foods are pretty sturdy and tolerant of different environments, but for them to have maximum health, they need to be treated with some care. Start treating your starter with more care and it will treat you well too ;)
Sorry to hear that your starter is getting funky. I always rotate my starter that I'm going to stash back in the fridge into a new clean glass vessel, using the remaining starter for pancakes, waffles or fresh bread. Not sure why anyone would do it any other way. I wouldn't keep drinking milk out of the same glass over a 4 month period of time, by keeping part of it, and then drinking some and refilling it.
You could try saving your starter by feeding it pineapple juice instead of water for a period of a week or so. The acid in the pineapple juice will probably kill off any nasty beasties, while giving the starter yeast plenty to eat (they like the pH AND the sugar). Just see the pineapple starter thread on this website.
We have a Corning Outlet Store nearby that sells the glass corning measuring cups for 1/2 price (if you buy 3 or more). I got a set of 1 c, 2 c, 4 c and 8 c for under $20. So you can just rotate your starter btwn the 1 and 2 cups, and then use the 4 and 8 cup to make your dough in. The 4 and 8 cuppers come with plastic lids, which are particularly convenient.
Save money on the doctor bills and use a fresh clean vessel each time you refresh your starter. You could always refresh your starter a bit more frequently as well too, and see if that helps.
Glad you are on the mend. Best of luck!
First of all, I keep my stater at 60% hydration, so it doesn't make the container gunky. When I am building a starter, I ALWAYS use a bowl scraper after mixing. It keeps the crap off the side of the container, prevents mold and other bacteria from growing, and just makes cleanup that much easier. I have a variety of tupperware, all of the appropriate size. Each time I refresh my starter, I use a new tupperware container. I throw it under the tap, hot soapy water. Giver a scrub, a rinse, a dry. Good to go.
Add on: I bake about the same amount each week. I took the time to figure out how much starter I need every 2 days. I keep my starter weight at 200g. It allows me to bake twice over the course of four days with 70g starter each time with enough left over to refresh.
Based on everyones advice I think I'm going to throw out my starter and just begin again with a new starter maintained at a lower hydration, I just can't take a chance considering the loaves I give away to people with kids etc. Even with the pineapple juice treatment if that takes a week it pretty much takes a week to start a new one so might as well. I will also be more religious about transfering the mother to a new jar if not after every feeding then at least after every time I take it out of the fridge and back. Unfortunate since my starter didn't really take off for about 3 weeks and I now have a long wait and have to figure out some other cooking projects to obsess over in the meantime hah. It's weird because the smell isn't really a rotting smell its hard to put a finger on, more musty and wet smelling like a wet towel you forgot somewhere. When my leaven is working right the smell is sweet and clean like overripe fruit so I will def not take chances and pay more attention. Nobody really answered above but do I need to worry about any residual critters in my bannetons I proofed the loaves in? Is the pineapple juice regimen something I should do once in a while just to be on the safe side? Wish me luck with my new mother!
"Based on everyones advice I think I'm going to throw out my starter and just begin again with a new starter maintained at a lower hydration, I just can't take a chance considering the loaves I give away to people with kids etc."
Better Safe that sorry :)
"Even with the pineapple juice treatment if that takes a week it pretty much takes a week to start a new one so might as well.
The pineapple juice actually does two things. It lowers the initial pH to a less bacteria friendly level, but there is also an enzyme in it that inhibits bacterial growth called bromelain.
I will also be more religious about transfering the mother to a new jar if not after every feeding then at least after every time I take it out of the fridge and back.
To be honest, I think that might be a bit excessive. If you want to do this, power to you. If you just make sure the sides of the container are scraped down that should be sufficient. I advocate using something with a wider mouth that you can get your whole fist comfortably into. This makes cleaning to much easier than when using a mason jar.
Unfortunate since my starter didn't really take off for about 3 weeks "
Seriously, use organic unbleached fresh ground rye. You can find it at pretty much any healthfood store with bulk bins in it. You'll have bubbles before you know it, and a nice strong leveur (french for leavener :P) in about a week. A lot of commercial non-organic flours are treated with crap to prevent little bugs from growing in it, which subsequently kills off most of the local yeast and lactobacillus flora. If you can't find unbleached organic non-bromelated rye, just use whatever rye you can find. It contains more benificial bacteria and yeast than other types of flour. Just switch over to whatever type of flour you want your starter to be once you have the mother established. Also, rye makes whisking up the various stages of starter a breeze because there isn't very much gluten in it.
figure out some other cooking projects to obsess over in the meantime hah
Play with a poolish lean bread recipe. Pretty much any poolish recipe will be very similar in terms of technique to sourdough. Slow rise, more flavour. Make some poolish baguettes and figure out your stretch and folds on wet dough. Baking with a wet sourdough is so much fun, and you can get a handle on the wet doughs easily with a poolish.
It's weird because the smell isn't really a rotting smell its hard to put a finger on, more musty and wet smelling like a wet towel you forgot somewhere.
That my friend, is the smell of mould.
When my leaven is working right the smell is sweet and clean like overripe fruit so I will def not take chances and pay more attention.
The combination of lactic acid, alcohol, aldehydes and a number of other yeast/bacillus by-products really is heavenly. If it ever smells like nail-polish remover you are abusing your starter. You need to feed it more often. The nail-polish smell comes from acetone like chemicals that are the resultant of something called oxidative phosphorylation. Yeast, even in highly oxidative conditions tend to prefer the fermentation process (sugar to alcohol, or sugar to lactic acid in the case of lactobacillus) when in the presence of sugar or starches. You start getting those acetone smells when the culture starts running out of food to eat, and they switch to less prefered metabolic pathways. Keep your starter happy, feed it. Once or twice a week with a low hydration starter kept in the fridge should be fine.
Nobody really answered above but do I need to worry about any residual critters in my bannetons I proofedthe loaves in?
I'm not sure that this is a question many people would be happy answering. What if they say no, it is fine, and you end up getting sick? What if we say yes, chuck em', and then it turns out they would have been fine? Do what you feel most comfortable doing. I know personally, I would give them a good clean and leave them out in the hot sun for a bit. UV from the sun is a great bacteria killer.
Is the pineapple juice regimen something I should do once in a while just to be on the safe side? Wish me luck with my new mother!
If you are having troubles with a starter, then yes...you can do the pineapple treatment. It does take a while to bounceback, as it has some serious anti-microbial enzymes that are not specific to the bad bacteria. It will inhibit yeast growth as well. I have had my starter going for a year now, and the only time I ever used pineapple juice was when I was building my starter up from scratch. I am not saying don't do it, just be careful :)
Thank you for all the advice. About the health food stores, many of the stores here in Los Angeles are holdovers from the 1970's, I am very suspicious about the age and cleanliness of the product being sold in bulk bins in these stores. I do use some organic rye in my starter but from Bobs Red Mill. Thak you for the advice on the bannetons I have them sitting in the sun as we speak. Although constant jar changing can seem obsessive I am not looking forward to repeating past mistakes so I think I kind of want to err on the side of overcaution at the moment. I think the suggest to focus on poolish breads as I rebuild a new starter is great advice I will def be doing that!
You may want to do both...try to recover your existing starter w/pineapple juice (1-1-1, instead of water, use pineapple juice; start with 2Tbsp starter, 2 Tbsp pineapple juice, 2 Tbsp flour; 24 hours later = 4 Tbsp starter - 4 Tbsp pineapple juice-4 Tbsp flour, etc.), and also start a new batch. Once you switch to filtered water, and start dumping and refeeding, just transfer to a clean container, and soak the old one in the sink overnight. How hard is that really? (I guess it must be hard, as many who post who don't do that).
When I store my starter (which I just did), I took 50g starter, 25g water, 50g flour (King Arthur unbleached bread flour). This makes a very thick mini-dough. I can leave this in the fridge, lightly covered for at least 4 weeks, maybe more. I haven't tested how long it can go, but I will. I think last time, after 3 months, it finally got white mold on the top. So I carved that off, through out the hooch, and took a couple of tablespoons of starter from the very bottom of the old container, transferred to a clean container, refreshed the starter over the next couple of days on the counter, and re-stored in the fridge. It's been fine.
I think folks who leave their starter out on the counter for a week, or in the fridge for weeks on a 1-1-1 ratio are just starving the little dears to death.
In the end just do what is successful for you.
I agree on the banneton idea of simply just putting them in the hot sun for an hour or half a day. That should sterilize them enough.
The more I think about the pineapple juice treatment honnestly the less it appeals to me since the only way to find out if it worked short of sending it to a lab is to test it on my own stomach which does not seems like a wise plan of action hah! Thanks for all the other advice.
I believe it was a virus you picked up or even the lunchmeat or veggies you used on the sandwich,for breakfast that day ot even the evening before. Noro-like viruses are rampant in some areas, once in a while. and cause a sudden onset of vomiting and diarrhea and fever. It can be awful. You can pick it up from a hand railing,money, or just about anywhere that an infected person touched and starts within several hours of infection. I would suspect you had something like that.
Starters sometimes do smell a little "off" but I'm sure if it smelled like pus you wouldn't have eaten it and anything that grew on it that caused horrible symptoms would have either a bizarre appearance or a terrible smell. If it had kind of a cheesy,dirty sock odor, that was an undesirable lacto growing (kind of like makes cheese) and it usually can affect the bread rising but won't cause illness.
If you are paranoid about using sourdough starter then just don't. You shouldn't be stressing about it. Just switch to yeast.
The thing that makes me doubt it was a virus is the fact that as soon as it was out of my stomach I began to feel better, it wasn't like I was sick over and over for a whole day or night. Just twice right away 4 hours after eating the bread and I was done. Sorry for the graphic details. I am not paranoid about using sourdough, just want to exercise caution in food handling and track down all the possible culprits and make sure I don't repeat any mistakes.
Sorry I'm late to the thread. As a person who has been keeping a starter for many years, I've never had a stable starter go bad. My experience is that if the Leuconistic (sp) bacteria gets active, the smell is very unpleasant. The other symptom is there will be a layer of hooch mid way in the container or on the bottom. A healthy starter will create this liquid layer on top and smell like lacquer thinner, when it is under fed. You can pour off the liquid and feed at room temperature for a day or two and it should be fine.
My advice would be to dump the starter, clean the container well including sponges with bleach and start over using the pineapple solution at the start. The point of using pineapple juice is to force the pH into the acid range to prevent the bad bacteria for taking hold early on before there is a dominant culture. I don't believe there is much point of using the pineapple juice once the bad bacteria has taken hold. It has worked for me every time I have tried it and I had a few stinky start up starters prior to reading Debra Winks paper on the subject. I would never use a starter that had any kind of unpleasant odor. Never eat bread made from such a starter. Our sense of smell is trained by millions of generations of trial and error, trust it.
I didn't read closely all of the comments on this thread but if you haven't already done so, I highly recommend reading Debra Winks post on the Pineapple solution. Here is the link to Part 2 which has the process near the bottom. Debra is a microbiologist and has written extensively about the issue of getting a healthy starter started.
And BTW, welcome to the site. I look forward to seeing your breads.
Eric
Thanks for the link and thanks for asking to see my breads. Just for the sake of argument here are my last two pain au levain loaves from my now tossed and likely contaminated starter, I didn't bother to clean the jar since it was from the 99c store and it wasn't worth 99c to possibly get nasties on anything else in my kitchen.
The hydration level is 69% on those loaves. I picked up a lame at a kitchen shop for scoring my loaves and it is giving me some nice ears.
So I think what I will do to clean the bannetons is to soak them in a bleach solution in my sink then rinse them out and sun dry hopefully that will kill anything nasty that might be on them.
The thing I really like about glass is it's easy to clean and sterlize, and nasties can't live in it after that, ever.