Crumb that taste like crumpet ?
Was wondering if anybody could shed some light on my bread baking problem.
I'm following Richard Bertinet's recipe and method for a basic French loaf (based on his baguette recipe). No matter what I alter with the method or quantities I seem to end up with a crumb that taste like a crumpet. I'm using active dry yeast, AP unbleaced flour, ingredients are weighed. The basic recipe has 500g strong bread flour, 350g water, 10g salt and 10g fresh yeast (i'm using 7g active dry yeast instead - mix into the flour dry).
Crusts are always good but crumb. I've made several loafs now all with different results, the last loaf came out more like a ciabatta as they dough did not hold it's shape well. The only commonality between loafs is this crumpet taste.
Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?
Thanks.
Are you using a "strong bread flour"? Could make all the difference as far as dough consistency and the texture of the bread. Don't know if that explains the taste though.
No, I'm using Australian all purpose flour. But I've found a supplier of french flour that i will try, called "Grand Moulins de Paris" and it's T65. Does anybody know if this is a good flour?
Xeni,
The weights given equal a wet 70% hydration. I'd try 325 grams of water (65% hydration) and a few stretch & folds during the bulk ferment. Using the ferment he mentions, page 26, will add flavor and keeping quality to you bread. Beware of the salt measurement on page 93, use 2 tsp not 2 Tbl, or 10-11 grams.
Jim
Thanks for the tips, I'll give 65% hydration a go when I get some strong flour. I thought 70% hydration would be too high for a baguette or is there more to it than just hydration level?
Hydration is often relative to the type of flour. As the protein level of the flour rises, so does the amount of water it can absorb. If you find a stronger flour the 70% may be fine. Basically the hydration is just a guide, it's what the formulator found to be correct with the brand/type of flour they used. Better baking books will give additional hints such as; wet, sticky, tacky, firm or dry, to give the baker a better idea of what to shoot for. I usually hold back some of the liquid and feel the dough as the mixing continues. As one continues to learn the craft, the five senses are used to discover the needs of the dough.
Jim
The book/DVD refers to the dough at the start of working/kneading as being "porridge consistency". With my 2nd latest attempt looked similar to his DVD but the difference was when he'd finished working the dough he had a ball that could hold it's shape, whereas my dough was still floppy - even after the second rising, after folding and shaping i slashed the top of the dough and it flatten out even more. When I baked it, was about 3 inches height. see pic.
I'm not sure if you are describing the texture/mouth feel of the crumb or the flavor of the crumb once you've chewed a few times. I confess I've only had storebought crumpets and they are like a very chewy,doughy round thing that is full of holes. The taste is just rather pasty unless it is well toasted and spread with jam.
If your bread crumb is tough,chewy then I'd suggest that either the gluten content is too high (though I doubt this since you are using an AP flour) or the gluten is being held too tightly and not able to expand. So take a look at your shaping,first.
AP flour absorbs water differently than a high gluten flour. Even different bags of the same brand of flour can absorb different amounts and act differently.That's where baker's touch comes in and why even a formula is a guideline.
I assume that the proofing is appropriate because that is another factor that has an impact on the texture you may be describing. Too tight a "gluten skin" can restrict the expansion of the crumb. Too loose and it can just flatten out and never rise.
A third factor is your oven temp and baking time. You didn't say too much about that tho you said the crust comes out well, which says something about the oven temp.
If the issue is a pasty flavor, that is only improved with using some form of pre-digestion of the flour by the yeast. Sponge,biga,roux, mash,malt,cold retard.
EDIT: I just re-read the original post. You do not mention how long it takes to rise. 7g yeast for 500 g flour will work but if the rise is too long it will fizzle out and not be able to completely rise the dough. That will result in a doughy,chewy crumb. It may be as simple as a slight increase in yeast for the next bake to see if that improves things.
Have delicious fun!
I'm describing the texture/mouth feel of the crumb - moist and chewy. I just got some strong bakers flour (11.9 g per 100g protein as opposed to the AP flour 10.1g/100g) and used fresh yeast this time. Still the same problem. I would describe the gluten skin as loose, dough flattens out. Following the procedure in "Dough" I allow about 60 min for the first rise (double size) then fold and shape, slash top and let rise again for 45-60 min. Oven is preheated to 250C and turned down to 210C (electric oven with no fan) when the loaf is placed in. Baked for about 50 min. The loaf would not hold it's shape very well so i put it in a baking tin for the 2nd rising (don't normally do this). It doubled in size (maybe even more, bit hard to judge) and then baked it in the tin. It didn't rise at all in the oven, actually collapsed a bit.
What is causing this loose gluten skin, too much water?
Using 10g fresh yeast for 500g of flour is that appropriate for two 1 hour rises?
The French bread method in Julia Child's book rises the dough to triple the size and takes several hours more. I'm using 2 hours of rising and it looks like fermentation process has fizzed out by the time it goes in the oven. Maybe my yeast is not working to it's full capacity?
I've made about 20 loaves now all with the same problem except for one which had an excellent crumb but I have no idea what made it work!
The times given for rising and proofing the dough will be relatively close only if the dough temp is 75°F. Do you temp your dough? Dough temp is usually adjusted by adjusting the water temp. Ten grams of fresh yeast is correct for 500g of flour. As mentioned above pre-ferments can do a great job of improving flavor and texture.
Jim
This may tell you what the problem is. The dough is over proofed.
60 minutes is a fast first rise but it is done if it doubles. If the dough is that active, the second rise after shaping (the proofing) may be too long at 45-60 minutes. Do you live in a particularly warm environment or at higher altitude?
It is either due to a slack type of gluten (inherent in flour type such as Kamut/Khorasan-prob not the issue here), lack of gluten development or problems with shaping.
The crumb in the picture you provided is actually pretty nice looking-just flatter than you'd want. Take a look at some of the shaping videos and see if changing your shaping technique gets you where you want the loaf to be. OR You may need to knead/work the dough more and see if you can get it to the same as the dough on the video in consistency.
Thanks for the help. The bread is coming out great now, looks like the cumb problem was the over proofing as you stated.
Altitude is 750ft (approx 230 metres) - is that high for bread making? Temp around 20 -23degC.
I'm using strong flour which has allowed me to use a higher hydration. I've read that the wetter the dough the better, what does mean in terms of the crust & crumb?