Costco ConAgra Harvest Flour
OK so I've been having an AWFUL time trying to make my bread come out right and I finally found out what's wrong.
ConAgra Harvest All Purpose Flour is about the same protein content as biscuit mix. It's barely above a cake flour. At least what's available in MY area is.
I had to call ConAgra to get this information and if you are in some other part of the country it's going to be different. Unlike King Arthur, Con Agra does not mill their wheat to meet any particular definition of what we would typically think of as "bread flour" or "all purpose flour".
SO for the South East, that would be from AT LEAST North Carolina down and I'm not sure how far west; the ConAgra mill is in Alabama.
All Purpose Flour coming out of that mill is 9.2% protein (compare to 11.7% protein for King Arthur)
"Bread flour" coming out of that mill is 11.6% protein (compare to 12.7% protein for King Arthur)
Kyrol "high gluten" flour is 13.8% protein (compare to KA Sir Lancelot at 14.2% protein) - not all Costco's carry this, mine unfortunately does not.
The ConAgra representative to whom I spoke swore that although the ConAgra Harvest flour available at Costco is bleached, it is NOT bromated. I could have sworn the bags I bought actually did say it was bromated, but I've long since repackaged the flour and tossed the bags. It'll be a couple of weeks yet before I can get to Costco to double check that.
Typically we think of bread flour being something close to 13% protein, high gluten 14% to 15%, all purpose around 10% to 12%, pastry flour at about 9%, and cake flour being about 6% - 8%. Or at least I have, up to now. (Then there's White Lily, which historically was around 8%, not sure what it is now that it's been sold off)
This means the ConAgra Harvest AP flour is actually a PASTRY flour. No wonder none of my AP bread recipes were coming out! And I guess maybe some of the credit for the success I've finally had with pie crust is due to the flour rather than my increased prowess at pie making. *sigh*
Even the ConAgra Harvest Bread flour is too low in protein to actually qualify as a bread flour - it's slightly lower in protein than King Arthur's All Purpose flour!
Most national store brands of AP flour are nominally listed at 10.5% protein though I'm told in actuality they vary regionally from around 10% to 11%. National brands have a bigger stake in maintaining some level of consistency I guess. I'm talking Pillsbury, Gold Medal, etc.
SO, if you want to use the ConAgra Harvest flour from Costco, and you're in the SE, you may want to avoid the AP flour and stick to the Bread flour, treating it like it's equivalent to King Arther AP. It should be roughly equivalent for recipes on the King Arthur website that call for AP flour.
Adding vital wheat gluten to the ConAgra Harvest Bread flour will probably bring it up to the range of actual bread flour - I'm told it adds about 1% to the protein content when used as directed.
Keep in mind, I don't work for ConAgra. However, this is what I understand about their Harvest flour:
-it's called 'Harvest Flour' as in 'sounds like Gold Medal brand 'Harvest King'
-it has almost identical specs to 'Harvest King' ie., 11.8% protein vs. 11.9%
-it's actually their 'Minnesota Girl' flour renamed for Costco
-it's unbromated
-Mark
http://TheBackHomeBakery.com
Thanks for the info Mark.
Have you used the ConAgra Harvest? Do those specs bear out in your baking(i.e., CA Harvest very similar to GMHK?)
Thank you both.
I moved from VT where we used KA all-purpose in the bakery I used to work at to Hawaii where I used ConAgra and others for 6 years (basically whatever was cost effective), to Montana where I use Wheat Montana.
In my very un-scientific studies, I found CA Harvest to be similar to GMHK.
-Mark
Thank you.
Was that ConAgra Harvest AP, or bread flour?
Being clear on the other side of the country (and across the ocean) your ConAgra Harvest would not have been coming from the same mill as mine here in the SE. I can't say how it compares without checking specifically with ConAgra.
People need to be careful about equating this particular brand to other brands because according to ConAgra, it WILL vary widely depending on which mill it's coming out of.
The flour I had was the Harvest AP and behaved as I would've expected. If the flour you had was 9.2% as the ConAgra rep told you, then IMO it should've been labeled differently. As you said, this is far too low to be AP, and ConAgra should've labeled it accordingly. Regardless of where it's grown or where it's milled, ConAgra (and every other flour company) has specific labels for specific flours based on the type of wheat, protein content, ash content... If the flour doesn't fit the label, then it should be in a different bag.
-Mark
I agree with you 100%. Here I was baking blithely along, thinking I had AP flour when what I had was pastry flour!
This may be great for people who want a bulk source for cake, pastry, or biscuit flour, but not so great when you're trying to make bread.
The other thing that fooled me was thinking that because Costco is a national chain, the flour they sell under the same brand lable would be consistent across stores. Therefore I was going by the (few) reports from other people about the protein content of this flour. These reports were no doubt accurate for the specific regions where those people live, but not for me here in the SE.
All this time I've been beating myself up and blaming my poor Zojirushi, it was the flour all along, LOL!
Sadly, apparently I have to give up the idea that I've finally figured out how to make a flaky pie crust. It's much easier not to screw pie crust up when you're actually starting with pastry flour, LOL!
I spoke directly with the guy in charge of their technical specs at ConAgra.
Let me reiterate, the actual protein content of their AP and bread flours varies from region to region. The stats I listed are valid only for the SE region.
You don't mention which part of the country you are in.
Also, are you talking about the bread flour or the AP flour, for whatever region you are in?
I respectfully suggest that lack of protein is likely not the issue, perhaps technique...
There are many recipes that work fine with AP or flour at the lower end of high protein resulting in a great loaves characterized as slightly softer texture rather than overly chewey which can result from very high protein levels.
Many of the well known books say that bread results are more influenced by technique rather thant protein per se. See Tartine P 70 and Hamelman's "Bread" p365 - where the flour analysis uses 11.78% protein vs. the 11.6% above- not far off enough to really matter. Dan Leader's "Local Breads" on p18 says "Home bakers often assume that more protein makes better bread, but the best hand-crafting bakers like a balanced flour, between 11.3 and 12.2%, with enough strength to hold the gases within the cell walls to give the bread a high rise but still soft enough to chew." Leader also says to use unbromated flour same as you mention above.
As MRFrost says, useful to try a different flour for comparisson which may allow you to point to technique? Higher protein requires a higher hydration ratio so adjusting up or down to get the right feel is perhaps needed too. There may be legitimate issues with the flour you cite other than protein content.
And see the Tartine book - great results only by hand mixing. Keep at it, this post is meant to be helpful as we all have been there and more than occasionally are. Keep us posted!
I'm not sure what you're responding to, but my posting was about using a flour labeled AP that turned out to be a pastry flour.
So we're not talking about a .18% difference, we're talking about the difference between 11.7% and 9.2%, or 2.5% lower protein in the flour ConAgra Harvest AP flour available in MY region (the SE US). The difference may be less in some other region for the same brand of flour coming out of a different mill.
This is essentially trying to use pastry flour to make bread. I don't think anyone suggests this is a good idea. 9.2% DOES NOT fall into the range of 11.3% to 12.2% that you mention.
Many brands of flour divide the U.S. into two parts ("the south" and "everywhere else"), and supply AP flour with a lower gluten content to "the south". They do this because their southern customers "expect" it (or more bluntly "make a lot of biscuits").
Some flour suppliers will tell you the difference, some will hide it inside their "range", and some (like King Arthur Flour) don't do it at all.
And what do I mean by "hiding it inside the range?" Well, the published range for Gold Medal AP is 9.8%-11% protein/gluten. That gives them some wiggle room for year-to-year differences and different growers. It's a pretty good guess though that flour destined for "the south" will be toward the lower end of that range, and flour destined for everywhere else will be toward the higher end of that range.
(BTW, the idea that "protein" is all "gluten" is just a convenient approximation for north american wheat flours. Selective breeding has made it nearly true for some strains. But the convenient approximation may not hold for other areas and other grains; for example "quinoa" is very high protein yet is gluten-free.)
Just FYI, I called ConAgra back to check on what bleaching agent they are using, if the flour I'm getting here in the SE isn't bromated. Which they insist it isn't, although I could SWEAR that both bags listed Potassium Bromate as an ingredient when I bought them a few months back.
Incidentally, if the flour is bromated, it is required by law that that be listed as an ingredient. Otherwise it just says "bleached".
However, the representative I spoke with checked all the nearby mills (just in case Costco here had got a batch from a different mill) and NONE of them are using potassium bromate at this time.
The bleaching agent being used here in the SE is benzoyl peroxide - yes, the anti-zit medication we all know and love. LOL!
At any rate, according to "How Baking Works", benzoyl peroxide has no effect on gluten strength. Just FYI - many bakers object to the use of anything other than unbleached flour because they think all bleaching treatments weaken the gluten. Of the bleaching treatments I'm aware of only Chlorine actually weakens the gluten.
The reason Potassium bromate was used is because it actually strengthens the gluten. Ascorbic acid does this as well. Natural aging strengthens gluten. Benzoyl peroxide has no effect.
So if you want to use this flour for bread making, keeping in mind the actual protein content is lower here in the SE and this information about BLEACHING AGENTS is ONLY valid for ConAgra Harvest King flour coming out of mills in Ohio, PA, and AL (not sure about GA) and sold through Costco, it seems like adding a little ascorbic acid (you can use Fruit Fresh) should get you the extra boost if you still need one, even though the flour is bleached.
I have no knowledge of protein content of the flour coming out of any of the mills other than the Decatur mill. I only asked about bleaching agents this go-round.
I just went to Costco Portland OR. 3000 miles away from some of you. I could not see any difference in the protein specs on the bags of Conagra AP vs Bread flour.
This was puzzling. Then I came back and read the above posts.
I will go back and take a photo and post it.
The differences between the two are often so small as to not show up in the specs. I think you will notice that this is also probably the case with King Arthur All Purpose and Bread Flour. Same specs as listed on the labels(retail packages).
Just depends on what the actual values are before rounding to the nearest whole number.
Hypothetical example: King Arthur All Purpose flour may have a protein level of 3.5 grams per 30 grams of flour. This round off to 4 grams per 30 grams.
KA Bread Flour may have a protein level of 4.1 grams per 30 grams of flour. This would round off to the same 4 grams as the AP.
Please note that these are not the actual values. Just trying to illustrate how the numbers on the labels could be the same.
KAAP Nutrition label link:
http://dailyburn.com/nutrition/king_arthur_all-purpose_flour_unbleached_calories
KABF:
http://dailyburn.com/nutrition/king_arthur_flour_king_arthur_unbleached_bread_flour_calories
For $7 and change for a 25# bag I thought it was worth looking into.
I love the Hodgson Mills Naturally White (All Purpose) and Bread Flour but have no idea what the protein % is. Does anyone know?
As of the 2006 Artisan Flour Test, the HMAP was noted to have a protein level of exactly 10%.
No info on the bread flour.
http://www.theartisan.net/flour_test.htm
As noted in the comment section of the test results, Hodgson suggests adding vital wheat gluten to the AP if using for yeast breads.
Just a follow up - I have since moved to another region of the country, where there is no Costco.
However the Baker's & Chef bulk flour carried by Sam's Club is also out of ConAgra mills.
My local Sam's Club carries only the Baker's & Chef in bulk, some much more expensive stuff from Prairie Mills (which seems to specialize in corn meal/flour mostly) and some survivalist stuff.
The only viable bread flour is the B&C bread flour (out of ConAgra).
I haven't contacted the mills for exact protein content and probably won't unless I have some trouble with that flour and my bread.
Sadly King Arthur AP flour is over $5 for a 5 lb bag in the grocery stores here - compared to $7.27 for 25 lbs of ConAgra (Bakers & Chefs) bread flour, well, there's just no comparison.
If I can still get the KA AP at local WalMarts for the roughly $3.50 I was paying in the SE, I'll still occassionally buy the KA AP (11.7% protein, it's bread flour for all intents and purposes), the problem being there are like 8 WMs in town and they are badly and unevenly stocked - I'm neither willing nor able to run all over town looking for a bag of KA flour, LOL!
Thanks for posting about your experiences. I had a batch of garlic knots that disappointed (recipe I've used before) and just tonight a batch of "Texas Roadhouse" rolls that lacked structure. I thought that the flour was rather soft and behaved more like cake flour. Now I know this isn't just my imagination!