Please help - Tartine Basic Country Bread
Tartine bread is the best I've ever had. When the book came out I had to try to make it at home.
This is the first time I've tried to make bread and it's been really tough! People on this list seem to have a lot of experience and are able to diagnose issues; I hope you can help me.
I've baked the Tartine recipe twice now. In both cases the loaf failed to rise in the oven.
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Formula:
Night before bake make leaven: 1 T starter + 200g water + 200g 50/50 flour mix (whole wheat and white unbleached bread flour)
Morning of bake make dough: 200g leaven + 700g water + 900g white flour + 100g ww flour
40 min autolyse
Add 20g salt + 50g water
Bulk fermentation 3-4 hours at 78-82 deg F. Turning every 30 min for first 2-3 hours.
Initial Shaping
Bench Rest 30 min
Final Shaping
Afternoon of bake - Final Rise (proofing) 3-4 hours at 75-80 deg F
Evening bake: Preheat Lodge cast iron Combo Cooker at 500 deg F, bake at 450 for 20 min covered, then 25 min uncovered.
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Attempt #1
Leaven passed the float test but after 4 hour bulk rise the dough failed to hold shape. I put the dough back in the bowl and let it sit for three more hours. It still would not hold any shape. Same behavior after bench rest, and again during final shaping. I ended up pouring a blob into the proofing baskets and also into the Combo Cooker. Loaf did not rise in the oven. Good crust, but dense, heavy, overly-moist crumb.
Attempt #2
The last two feedings prior to making leaven I fed the starter every two days because it took that long to form a crust and smell ripe. The morning of the bake, the leaven did not initially pass the float test but I put it in the oven for a 90 min (oven was not on, just warmer) and then it did pass the float test. I was THRILLED that after a 3 hour bulk fermentation I was able to shape the dough just like in the pictures and video. I had to leave the house in the afternoon so the final rise (proofing) was 5 hours. The loaf did not rise in the oven; same results as above.
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I'm not confident in my starter. I can feed it every day but it doesn't seem to rise much. At feeding it has bubbles and is kind of stretchy, and smells kind of milky, floral, and only a bit ripe. Is this the problem?
Did the two attempts fail for different reasons? Did the second attempt fail because the final rise was too long?
Why does my bread have no oven spring?
Thanks so much, hope you can help.
-Shannon
Update: I should add that after the second attempt I noticed that my oven is about 50 deg F hotter than the dial, so I think I've been preheating closer to 550 and baking at 500. Could this prevent oven spring? For future attempts I'll pay closer attention to the oven thermometer.
Update: my fourth bake was also a failure. I've been feeding the starter for a month now. I don't know what the issue is and there are so many variables it makes my head spin. So I started a new thread to concentrate on the first step: the starter.
It sounds like a starter problem to me.
In reference to the first attempt, you should have gave the dough a few more stretch and folds in the bowl to have built up strength. This would have helped it have form. As Chad says in the book, you need to judge the dough by feel. Though you may have completed the routine number of stretch and folds, perhaps it wasn't enough for your dough this day. Next time judge the dough by feel and sight.
Your second attempt is where it makes me feel like you are not properly caring for your starter. After initially getting a proper starting going that rises and falls routinely and needs feeding twice a day (or so), you should then start attempting to use it to bake. When you mentioned letting it form a crust before refreshing is what made me think you may not be properly caring for your starter. Or perhaps using an underdeveloped starter that is still going through the first initial stages of development before it is ready for bread production.
If you used it after neglecting it for that long, your starter would have starved and needed refreshing to make it lively again.
Here is an excellent link to proper starter care on TFL.
Hope I was able to help a bit, I know there are other members on here that can diagnose a poor loaf easily.
Hi Shalako,
Please note that the book says a crust may form on your starter, and this is only during the first 2 or 3 days of starting a starter, while you're waiting for the first signs of activity.
Once you have some aroma and bubbles, you start feeding regulary and there should never be a crust.
The book goes on to say that once the starter ferments predictably, i.e. rising and falling after feedings, you can start using it to bake with.
In my house (fairly cool), it can take as long as a fortnight before a starter reliably triples in about six or seven hours.
Good luck!
Hi, Shannon.
Arlo may be correct about your starter, but I think you are over-proofing by quite a bit. I find that the fermentation and proofing times given in "Tartine Bread" are generous, and my kitchen is cooler that what Robertson recommended.
David
Hi Shannon!
My times are substantially shorter than Robertson's for the bulk ferment and the final proof and I am using lower temps also. When I have followed the Tartine schedule my loaves have been overproofed. Under no conditions should you go over about three hours and three hours in my experience. More like 2 to 2 1/2 each.
Also Shannon, I would suggest dropping the hydration a bit. The Tartine recipe is so wet that its handleability seems to be pretty closely linked to variations in flour. My loaves using KA AP and WW were too wet to handle well or hold shape following the book recipe. Simply decrease the final water by about 30-50 grams and increase the flour the same amount and you will have a much more manageable dough.
Good Luck!
Jay
There is a large thread here which may provide more helpful info:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.0.html
I probably will get this book just based on the fantastic pictures and great comments in this thread. I am a member there and somewhat amazed at the interest the book has raised. I hope you will find it interesting.
Marty
Thanks for the replies. I hope someone will see this update and can give me a hand.
I've been feedlng my starter every day for a month now, except for part of a week when I tried feeding every two days because nothing seemed to be happening. For the past week I've been feeding it twice a day, morning and night, and by this past Thursday/Friday it was nearly doubling in size.
For the third weekend in a row I spent a 12 hour day in an 80 degree kitchen trying this recipe out, with the same results - bricks. Nice thin crispy crackly crust but the inside - dense and gummy. No oven spring. Feeling pretty frustrated.
Questions:
Starter: If I've got the starter doubling reliably by each feeding, can I check that off the list as a potential problem?
Starter: The book doesn't indicate how much the starter should rise (it's pretty short on details in a lot of places). Is doubling, or even tripling (!!) necessary?
Starter: I'm feeding the starter twice a day now, probably based on something I read on this forum. The book says to feed it once/day. Can I go back to once/day and expect good results?
Starter: The book says the starter is supposed to rise and fall within hours of feeding. I'm not around to observe this behavior; I only see it during feedings and on the weekend when I have been baking. If it has risen by the next feeding is that sufficient for good results?
Leaven: The leaven consistently doesn't rise on it's own by morning; it always fails the float test initially, but after a few hours in the oven it rises by 20% and passes the float test. How can I expect the leaven to rise in 8-10 hours with only a tablespoon of starter as the book calls for?
Bulk Fermentation: The bulk fermentation does get silky and billowy and pulls away from the bowl, and I can shape it fine, but it doesn't increase in volume by 20% as the book suggests it will. Is this a starter or leaven problem?
Bulk Fermentation: In another example where the book is vague, it says to turn the dough during the bulk fermentation every 30 min for the first two hours, and then turn it more gently. What does that mean? Continue to turn it every 30 min for the duration of the bulk rise but be more gentle? Or only turn it every hour after the first two hours? Or not at all after two hours?
Bulk Fermentation: This step seems to be what keeps me in the house all day, because it requires turning every 30 min. Is it possible to let it sit all day or all night? Would I put it in the fridge in this case? Will this lower the likelihood of successful oven spring?
Proofing: Should the dough actually rise during proofing? I proofed 3 hours today and I don't think there was any change in volume.
Proofing: What shape should the dough be in when it's time to cook? Should it stay in a bun or is it ok if it has spread out a little? Mine have a good tension, they just expand/spread out to fill the bowl during proofing.
Thank you, hope someone can help.
I'll try and answer a few questions the best I can.
Possibly. If it seems healthy, has a good smell to it and is doubling in an expected manner, it seems your starter is doing well.
For a liquid starter at 100%, like the books recommends. I look for the starter to swell in volume, start to become a bit bubbly on the top and slowly starting to fall back in on itself. At that point, I know the starter is ready to be used.
If you go back to once a day, make sure the starter is not starving and falling back on itself waiting to be feed for a few hours. To control this and make it so only need to feed once a day, use colder water and a colder room temp to stunt the growth.
To move on to the leaven I always try to use a starter that is at it's peak. As described above, for this liquid style starter, I look for it to have swelled in volume, bubbly, and beginning to fall back in on itself a bit.
You can expect it to rise because of the power of the yeast in the healthy starter. Also using correct water temp and room temp you will be able to the starter to rise the 20% Robertson requires for his recipes. Perhaps if you are seeing it rise too slowly, use a bit warmer water next time.
Sounds like it might be a temperature problem really. If the rise is taking longer, your dough is most likely cold, and vice versa if it is too warm. Place it in a warmer temperature in your house and keep checking. Or wait it out till it hits 20%. The bulk fermentation is a very key point and should not be rushed.
It means after the 2 hours and S&F every 30 minutes, you have to be the judge on when it needs another S&F. It may need it once more at three hours, it may not need it at all depending on the autolyse time, your s&f strength you used and so on. So what I do is set the timer again for 30 minutes after the two hours, I check the dough by gently turning one side, if it feels strong, I let it rest and do a s&f after the 3 hour mark. Otherwise I may s&f again at 2.5 hours, then 3 hours, then let it go. You have to be the judge of what you dough needs. That's what it means.
The stretch and folds are key to develop good dough strength. And really you should consider the timing needed before develing into starting a dough. Perhaps use colder water to lengthen the bulk fermentation to allow yourself time to run around and do whatever.
In the book though he talks about the man who uses his recipe in his coffee shop. He mentions he leaves it overnight in loaf pans to rise and how that helps it have strength and support. Perhaps you can consider keeping the loaf in a pan, overnight in cold temp to rise if you are having a hard time finding a few hours to do the stretch and folds.
During final proofing, I have noticed the dough to rise after I have removed it from the fridge. Double in size? Not quite.
It should spread maybe a little, but not pancake like. If you are experiencing that, some more s&f might have been needed.
Back to work, my rolls are almost proofed. Hope I helped somewhat.
Arlo, thank you so much for taking the time to address all my questions!
Here are a few follow up questions:
Starter: How do you know the starter has reached it's peak and is falling back on itself?
Bulk Fermentation: In my last two attempts I've used a meat thermometer in the dough during the bulk fermentation and the dough maintains a consistent 78-80 deg F during the bulk rise. It doesn't appear to rise in 3-4 hours. Too cold or too warm? Too long or too short?
Bulk Fermentation: How can you tell when the dough is strong enough without shaping it, which requires adding flour?
I agree with Arlo.
S & F is Stretch and Fold. Picture the dough like as an unfolded envelope. Flip the dough top side down and then pull out the sides one at a time and fold them over to the other side of the dough. Do this at least once and from all 4 sides. Do it again if it seems too loose and the surface won't tear. Then flip the top back up on top, round out the shape, cover and let rise. The dough should feel sponge like as time goes on puffing slowly with gas.
As time goes by, sourdoughs tend to get "wetter" because of the fermenting so if the dough starts out a little stiffer, by the time the fermenting is done, it should be about right. Folding adds lots of body so it can hold it's shape better.
I don't have the book, but I am wondering about the starter. How do you feed it and at what temp is it maintained?
one more Q... How did the gummy bread taste?
I know this can all be so frustrating.
Thanks for your help!
I feed the starter by removing about 80% of the volume. I've recently been weighing whats left and it's about 100-115g.
Then I add about 1/2 cup of 50/50 blend of organic whole wheat bread flour and organic unbleached white bread flour (both locally milled and bought at our cooperative market). I weigh this and it's between 70-80g.
Then I add an equal weight of water (70-80g) and mix. The water is about 80 deg F.
Hi,
Based on those numbers, I'd say you're not feeding enough.
Try feeding at least the weight of starter, preferably a bit more. I routinely keep about 40g of starter and feed it 60g flourblend and 60g water, and that works well.
Edit: just saw your other thread - you already figured this out. Good for you :).
Hey Shalako,
Am sorry to hear of your bread troubles. Much of what you've described about the problems with your starter are very similar to mine.
I began my starter a week ago and have been feeding it, per the book's instructions, once a day. Like you, I'm not around to observe if the starter is rising or falling and my only indication of its activity is when I feed it in the morning.
Last night, after a week of feeding and seeing the starter consistently bubbly and thick-looking, I mixed up my leaven and let it rest overnight. Needless to say, it flunked the float test and despite my best efforts at letting it rest and even putting the bowl in a warm oven, it still failed the float test, each time.
I'm suspecting, as other posters have said, that the problem lies in the starter. Are there any experienced bread makers out there that can offer us some insight into what a healthy starter should look like or any solutions to our starter problem? Thanks... and good luck Shalako...