Bagels from The Bread Baker's Apprentice—Updated
I just posted a blog entry discussing the bagels I've been making and wanted to follow it up over here in the forums with a couple questions.
Chewiness
I've used longer boil times and have compared KA Sir Lancelot HG flour to bagels made with KA's Bread flour and find there's only a slight difference in chewiness. These bagels are good, but the inner bagel is still surprisingly soft. What aspects of bagel making can affect the chewiness outside of boil time and gluten content of the flour?
Surface Texture
After increasing the amount of baking soda, and adding malt syrup to my water, the exterior is getting much closer to what I expect from a bagel, but it's still quite soft/chewy. Shouldn't a bagel have a bit of a crackle or crispness to the outside? Is this something that only moving to a lye bath is going to achieve?
Crumb
Since these are the best bagels I've ever had, I'm guessing that I've never really had a good, traditionally made bagel. What should the crumb look like? Should it have a tight crumb, or should there be some noticeable holes to it?
That's it for now, I think. Although I can't recall all the various posts I've found that have helped me this far into my bagel making, I want to thank the members of The Fresh Loaf forums as a whole for all the great info. I've been lurking until now, but have found the site incredibly helpful. It's helped me improve my bagels, fix my sourdough starter, and given me some ideas on how to deal with kneading and pain in my hands and forearms. Much thanks to all of you!
Christopher
UPDATE—2010-06-12 10:26 AM
I made a batch of dough up Thursday afternoon using King Arthur Sir Lancelot (High Gluten). I retarded it while the bagels were still extremely sluggish to float. Rather than spraying the bagels with oil to keep them from sticking to the plastic bag they were stored in, I sprayed the plastic bag, itself, and arranged it so that it wouldn't make contact with the bagels; i.e. the spray was just insurance in the event that the bag was moved so that it touched. This morning I boiled them for 90 seconds per side. And rather than sticking the whole tray of bagels in the oven, I removed the bagels from the tray and cooked them directly on my quarry tile. I cooked them for approximately 15 minutes. The bagels were a rich brown with a slight reddish tinge. They had crust—there was a discernable crackle as I passed the knife through them. Biting into them, there was resistance—at first a slight crunch and then chewiness. The upper half which was covered with my everything mixture—Maldon sea salt, black and white sesame seeds, dehydrated garlic granules, and poppy-seed—was less crusty, both because of the seed coverage and because my range just isn't able to achieve an ambient temperature beyond 450ºF. The bottom, which was in contact with the baking stones, was perfectly crusty. There was a slight pretzel-like flavor to the bottom crust. I assume that's because pretzels and bagels both have a gelatinized crust from an alkaline bath. At any rate, the bagels were as close to perfection as I think I can come with this particular formula and my existing range. In fact, they were so good that my wife and 3 daughters wouldn't shut up about them and some of the sounds being made were rather alarming.
Next I'll try some different formulas. I should have Jeffery Hamelman's Bread any day now, and I picked up Mike Avery's small book, Back to Bagels. I want to thank everyone here for your comments and suggestions. It was a huge help. Thank you!
Christopher -
I'm not sure why you're not getting the degree of 'chew' you're looking for - generally lengthening the boiling time will do the trick.
As for crispness, my question to you is, what temperature are your baking these at? I bake mine between 480 - 500 for around 15 minutes, and get a nicely browned bagel with a somewhat crisp crust.
The interior shouldn't have a too-tight crumb; if it does, I'd question whether they are sufficiently proofed.
That said, I'm impressed with the bagels you're producing - you've got some nice shaping going on.
Larry
Thanks—these are probably the best looking bagels I've made, and it's my first time shaping by rolling. In the past I've just poked holes and stretched them. The rolling method does seem to produce nicer looking bagels, but I had a few that weren't sealed well and almost came apart in boiling.
I think my crumb is okay—I was just curious what a good crumb would be. My biggest problem to date has been with over-proofing. I was getting deflation and after rummaging through the forums realized that my bagels were over-proofed and collapsing. Maybe if I get them retarded earlier I can play around some more with the boil times.
I pre-heat my oven to 550º an hour before baking, and I keep quarry stone in my oven to help regulate the temperature. Sounds good, but my cruddy oven doesn't really get hotter than about 450-475º and is poorly insulated, to boot. It loses temperature quickly if the door is opened. That said, I've been able to get some decent crusts on baguettes.
In BBA, Reinhart instructs to mist the bagels with spray oil to prevent sticking -- any chance the oil is interfering with a good crust?
Thanks again for your comments.
Christopher
I've never misted a bagel with oil so I'm not sure what it might do to the crust, but in any event, it's unnecessary. If you're putting the bagels directly on your oven stone (vs. on parchment paper), after you boil them, put a little coarse semolina/corn meal on the counter and put the bagels on them (one side only - the down side). I do steam my bagels, however and this might improve the crust.
As far as proofing goes, I usually don't ferment my dough for more than an hour before shaping, and then an additional hour after shaping. By then they should be ready for the boil.
One last thing that occurs to me: after boiling the bagels and adding my toppings I allow them to dry for about 5 minutes before baking. (I do not place them in an ice bath). This does improve the crust in my opinion.
Hope this helps,
Larry
Hi Turgin,
I'm somewhat confused about your comment that your bagels should not float immediately. If you read page 121 of the BBA, you'll see Reinhart's instruction that they should float within ten seconds. Ten seconds is about what it takes for the bagel to submerge in the boiling water, then slowly pop back up.
Nor do I see any necessity to spray the bagels with oil. If you shape them, then place on a lightly oiled sheet of parchment and cover the pan with a plastic bag, they are not going to stick. I think the oil spray is interfering with the crispness of the crust - acting as a softener.
I made the Reinhart bagels from the BBA once. I think it calls for a lot of unnecessary steps and as a former NYC resident, they didn't remind me of the real thing.
I personally prefer the simplicity of the Hamelman formula - as well as the end result.
I must say that I find it amazing that you are mixing this low hydration dough by hand. That's got to be a workout!
My bagels don't take 10 seconds to float. I've actually only had one batch that submerged for longer than 1 second. Often enough they really just kinda bounce on the surface, which I take to mean that they're over-proofed.
I'm using XXL zip lock bags to store the half-sheet pans in the fridge. Without a light misting of oil the plastic can stick slightly and deform the surface of the bagels a little. The solution may be to rig some kind of framework to keep the bag from collapsing onto the bagels. The mist of oil is minimal, but I'd like to find a way to eliminate it to see what effect that has.
Mixing the dough by hand has gotten easier. When I first started with it, I was fighting the dough -- it was tough, so I thought I had to put some muscle into it. That was exhausting and quite a good workout. I'm finding, however, that there's no need to fight the dough. Simple, easy folds with little pressure bearing down on the dough gets the job done faster than using a lot of force. That said, I do find a double batch of cinnamon raisin bagels to be a big pain, still. The biggest problem is speed. I'm constantly trying to work faster to minimize the time from mixing to retarding. I think hand working this dough is is a big part of what is leading to my bagels always being over-proofed.
I ordered Hamelman's book last weekend and should be getting it any day. I definitely plan on making a batch of his bagels and comparing -- I'm hoping that in the differences between them I'll learn something useful.
Hi Tuirgin,
I too started with the BBA bagel recipe and thought my first try was too soft. Since your blog post does not mention changing the sponge step I'm assuming you are still using it. Cut that step out and it will help a lot. Just mix all of the sponge ingredients and final dough ingredients, knead it, and go from there.
I have a suggestion for avoiding oil also. I like to put my bagels on parchment paper inside of baking pans, then cover the baking pans with cling wrap. This creates a good seal to keep the bagels from drying out and the height of the baking pan lip keeps the cling wrap off of the surface of the bagels.
lief
Hrm. Interesting. How does keeping the same ratios while eliminating the sponge affect it? Does the gluten in the sponge lose strength, perhaps?
It seems to tighten up the crumb and keep it from getting too airy (less fermentation time). As long as you still knead the dough sufficiently and do the overnight retardation, the gluten should develop just fine.
My thinking was that doing the sponge was getting the yeast nice and worked up, so when it went into the final dough, it rose more rapidly. Just like a dough will rise more rapidly after a punch down than it did with the initial fermentation time.
I spray all my shaped loaves with oil to prevent them from sticking to their cover while proofing. (Spraying the plastic wrap or bag is even messier than spraying the breads). I do not find that misting with spray oil affects the crust negatively. My breads - and I bake a lot - have pefectly fine crusts.
The only other way to avoid dough to stick to the cover (especially if it's more hydrated dough) is to dust it with flour. And that's only appropriate for some breads, not for all.