September 13, 2009 - 9:08pm
Retsel pros and cons?
I am looking into buying a mill (I dont currently own one) and have been doing some research. Frankly, I"m torn. I have read a lot about the Retsel, and am impressed by the durability, manual options, and flexibility of this grinder. I also like that I won't have to triple check my grains for stones. The price is considerable but I'm not sure if it really is worth the pros. My other consideration is the nutrimill. I'm rather stingy with money so I really want it to be well spent if I'm going to lay down that kind of cash. What are your opinions?
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Well, IMO there is no contest between the Retsel and Nutrilmill as far as which mill is better. The Retsel is a true stone machine, not an impact mill, and treats the grain far more gently.
The only downside that I've found to the Retsel is that you'll probably wait 2-3 months for one to get delivered, and that their customer service is fact-challenged when it comes to ship dates.
Loyd
(edited because i typed dlx everywhere I meant Retsel)
Your comments all refer to the DLX but it seems as though you're actually discussing the Retsel mill. Am I missing something here?
Has anyone used the grain mill attachment for the kitchen aid mixer? If so, how good is it?
see http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3793/kernals-or-berries#comment-18786 and http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3793/kernals-or-berries#comment-18907
You can also check out the comments for the KA grain mill on Amazon.
This mill is serviceable for producing flour for bread, but cannot mill a really fine flour (even with sifting and remilling). It is *not* good for milling pastry flour from soft wheat.
It is nice for producing coarse grits or cracked gain (something most micronizer mills cannot achieve).
You'll notice I prefer the design of the older (Hobart-era) model of the grain mill. These are frequently available on eBay for $50 - $100. They should fit a 5-quart lift bowl KA model.
======= edit ========
PS The manual for the current KA grain mill model may be found at http://www.fantes.com/kitchenaid-grain-mill.html
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My beloved, venerable Hobart-era KitchenAid K5-A with the Hobart-era grain mill...
I bought a Retsel, second hand, from an old couple who raised their kids using the very same mill for 20 years. Twenty years later I bought it and it still works very well. Alan is right, it's one solid machine without a piece of plastic. It's a work horse and it's still pretty loud to me (not sure if there's a mill that's quiet). Their customer service is really bad but once you get their mill it's all good. Make sure you get some spare parts with your first order because you never know when you will need them and it takes forever to get your order through the same customer service people. Having extra small parts will save you a lot of griefs. Best of luck!
I received it about six weeks ago. Works well and grinds fine flour. I got it as one of their daily specials, the mill painted white, both the stones and the steel wheels, and the fly wheel for motorizing. The price would have been $236.85, and the discount brought it down to $157.95. Not a bad deal!
Here's the review I wrote on their website:
"It took more than 9 weeks from the time I ordered before I received my Uni-Ark on one of those 'Daily Specials' deals. There's craziness at Retsel with their powdercoating nonsense. They really can't meet their orders in a timely way if they offer twelve different colors! After all that time, and ordering a standard white color (it was part of the special deal) and getting a deal on the 12-inch fly wheel, when I opened the package the smell of the powdercoat was very fresh -- had just been painted. Not only that, the name "Silver Nugget" was cast on the body of the Uni-Ark! They used a Nazko Silver Nugget body, sold it as a Uni-Ark at a discount and didn't even bother to grind off the name of their competitor. In the end, does it make fine stone ground flour (sifted through a #50 sieve) in a single pass? Yes, with effort and with the output of about .6 grams per revolution. I watched a youtube vid of somebody who had a Wonder Junior with stone wheels, but then got a Mil-Rite and they said their Wonder Junior didn't grind as fine as the Mil-Rite. Apparently, the composition of the stones really matters!"
I'm in the process of motorizing it now, and although I found a motor quite cheap, the rest of the needed things cost almost $100. I hadn't really thought through how much those 'rest of needed things' were going to cost me. Those are: two 1.75" pulleys, one 7.25" pulley, one keyed shaft, two flange bearings, two v-belts. The plywood to construct a cabinet I already have. All those pulleys are needed to drive the mill at 60rpm.
I was confident the hand mill would be perfect for me, but I'm getting lower back soreness from my age and blisters on my hand from grinding as much flour as I do.
If I was doing it over again, I would get a Retsel Grister Convertible, which are motorless versions of the Mil-Rite and Mil-Master. They cost $249 and $294 respectively. They're quite a bargain, actually! All you need to do is directly couple a suitable motor. No pulleys or belts.
I've been watching ebay and recently there were two former-model electric Retsel mills. They're both smaller than the Mil-Rite, with 4" wheels and spinning at only 30 rpm.
The first is called the Romper. It has a 1/10 hp motor and the seller claimed it was from 1974.
The second is called a Mil-Maid. It has a 1/6 hp motor and the seller claims it was from 1982.
What really surprised me was that the Romper sold for $242.50 and the Mil-Maid sold for $246. Sheesh!
I found a reasonably priced circa 1985 Retsel Mil-Rite on Craig's List. It came with both stones and burrs and mills like a charm.
Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to get the back stone off the shaft in order to change to the steel burr. I ordered a manual from Retsel and it says that the feed auger pull off but I can't get it off to save my life removed the front stone.
Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong or if the feed auger is simply frozen on the shaft?
Many thanks in advance if someone can offer advice.
C.J.
It sounds like it's frozen to the shaft. There's a big brass piece that holds the back plate assembly on. Can you grab it with some lock channel pliers?
The auger should slip right off. Try a light hammer tap.
Many thanks to those who responded to my request for help.
The feed auger was DERINATLEY frozen on the shaft. Here is the solution and cause.
This afternoon I took the mill to my local mechanic guy. He had me hold a heat gun on the auger while he pryed the auger off the shaft by placing a lever under the threads on either side of the auger. It took about 5 minutes and wasn't an easy operation. We had to be careful not to damage the back stone by putting too much pressure on the levers.
Once it was off, what we found was a lot of petrified flour, gunk and corrosion.
Moral: Even if you think you are going to use the machine tomorrow, take a minute to take the stones off and clean the shaft and auger. The woman I bought it from told me she hadn't used it for 16 years. I'm sure that when she put the machine away the last time she used it, she never imagined it wouldn't be turned on for another 16 years.
It works great.
C.J.
I have a Mil rite and it does, or rather did, a fine job of milling however I would NEVER buy a Retsel again, On mine as I was milling some hard wheat berries, the auger broke into 6 pieces after only milling 2 lbs of clean Hard white wheat. I didn't misuse this machine and I still can't find any reason why this piece could have broken except for the poor quality metal used to make it, which I confirmed by taking it to a machinist. Retsel wouldn't cover the part under the warranty, though its supposed to be covered for 10 years and I had only had it for 4 at the time furthermore it took me 6 months to find that out, they just refused to respond. Worst company ever in my opinion. As for the spare parts suggestion, the parts are prohibitively expensive and you just might end up spending as much as you paid for the mill on parts. For example the augur alone, which is just a little piece of cast stainless not much better quality than pot metal, costs $100. Sure the part on my machine might have been just a defective fluke but the way this company treats its customers just plain sucks, there is no excuse for having to put up with a broken machine under warranty simply because the company is so arrogant they can't be bothered to provide any sort of customer service once the machine is sold Its still out of commission because I can't see giving this lousy company any more of my hard earned money the way they've treated me so far, I have no guarantee the new part will be any better than the old one (if they even bother to send it after paying the $100 of which I have serious doubts given my experience), and I can't see throwing good money after bad; I bought this mill because it was American made and seemed solid at the time but I'm buying a German one now. I really liked my Mil-Rite til it broke but the best advice I can give now is stay away from Retsel.. When you spend this much money on a mill it should last longer and have a heck of a lot better customer support than Retsel provides, which is virtually NONE
I am wondering what your broken auger is made of.
I bought a used Retsel Mil-Rite several years ago and have had no problems. (It was originally shipped Jan 2001.) The auger appears to be made of aluminum, which seems like a strange material for that critical part. Retsel now offers the option of brass or stainless steel augers.
It does kind of look like aluminum but it feels a bit too heavy to be that metal. I could be wrong. I didn't notice the brass auger but saw it when I went back and looked. I once thought very highly of Retsel but since I've had this problem and can't get the company to respond, and believe me I've tried and tried, my opinion of them is pretty low. Even if I hadn't had these problems with them the quality of the replacement augers they show are pretty bad. The picture below is what they show as an example on their website for what they call, and I quote, a "VERY PRECISION, PROFESSIONALLY MACHINED PART" It looks like its ready to break right out of the box! I don't know know anyone could say that this part is a high quality machined part much less use it as an advertising image, Seems Retsel really doesn't care about quality anymore. f they are showing this bad casting as a premium example worthy of being used to sell these parts how much worse will the part the send me be? That is if they ever bother to give me the time of day!!.(my machine is still under warranty for all the good its doing me)
Anyway I"m an artisan baker, part of my income comes from baking artisan breads for market, and they have cost me a chunk of change with their bad attitude. I'm not happy with them at all and they have made me regret ever buying this machine several times over. When you pay that much money for a machine that is supposed to be of the highest quality you don't expect this sort of treatment or such crappy replacement parts that cost a fortune, if in fact you can actually get them. I need this mill but right now its just an ugly doorstop. I understand that things sometimes break but this situation is absurd. I'm glad yours is still working, and I hope it continues to do so, but it it ever breaks you will see what I'm talking about.
I am now in the holding pattern for a Retsel Mil-Rite. I didn't know about the speed of delivery when I ordered on 12 July 2017, and mailed in my check. On July 29th, Retsel sent an email saying that they'd received the check the day before, and that "in a couple days" they'd send confirmation and the exact delivery date. It has now been 25 days since they got the check, and so far no word about a delivery date. And my check has not yet been cashed either.Fortunately I found TheFreshLoaf so I now know better what to expect. I used to be patient; I can probably be patient again if necessary.
What if Retsel were to say "Hey. We don't take credit cards; we don't do PayPal. And if you want one of the best grain mills in the world, you will need to be patient and wait for a few months while we make one for you. We know that people have been spoiled by Amazon and their devilishly fast service, but we happen to be old school. If you can handle that, we welcome your business."
If Retsel could be up front like this, I'll bet that business would still be good. And smoother. With fewer ruffled feathers, so to speak.
The bank reports that my check to Retsel was paid on 1st September. So there's hope!
According to the Retsel email, they received my check on 28 July. A mere 35 days later, the bank paid the check.
So I expect to get my new mill any month now, probably before the end of the year.
After MANY emails, Retsel finally sent me the Mill-Rite I had ordered 10 months previous. It arrived DOA. Use your imagination to fill in many email events between each of these journey markers.
*12 July 2017 I order a Retsel Mill-Rite with accessories
*28 July 2017 Retsel confirms receipt of my check for $1117.35 (Mill-Rite plus accessories: $767.85, shipping to Taiwan: $348.50)
*1 September 2017 my check is paid by my bank (Retsel was slow submitting the check)
*28 March 2018 I cancel order, ask for refund
*10 April 2018 Mill-Rite with accessories arrives DOA, I notify Retsel
*23 April 2018 postal inspector arrives, does inspection, takes pictures, asks me to encourage Retsel to do a better job of packing its product, especially for international shipment
*As of 1 July 2018 the unusable Mill-Rite is still sitting in our living room. Retsel has no idea of how to rectify the situation.
NOT RECOMMENDED!
Sorry to hear about your problems with the company. I have never seen that mill in person, but when I look at photos on the website, it looks like a standard induction motor without a start capacitor, which means the wiring is pretty basic, and it should turn when connected to electricity. When you say DOA, do you mean when you plug it in and turn it on, it does not rotate at all and the motor does not hum? Assuming they sent a motor wired for the voltage you use in Taiwan, unless something got seriously damaged in shipping, the most likely problem is a loose wire. If you can turn it by hand, I would see if there is a small appliance repair person near you that can look at it, without voiding the warranty, because it doesn't sound like the company is being very helpful.
It would be great if the problem was slight and could be easily rectified. If what Miles said is true, I’m wondering what is the warranty worth. You would think they would ship a properly wired mile since it was shipped out of country.
I read other post to this topic and it seems he is not alone.
Dan
Thanks Barry. Voltage here in Taiwan is 110 VAC 60Hz, same as USA. By DOA I mean that I removed the stones and turned the motor on with no load. It hums. Turned it off rapidly. Tried reverse. It hums. Off rapidly. There was some damage evident on arrival. Looks like the box was dropped. The box contained the motor in separate box inside, plus hopper, steel burrs, and heavy manual crank handle. Judging from the dent in the motor box and the top of the motor casing itself, the crank handle came down on the motor, hard. The spun aluminum hopper was also distorted, but I was able to squeeze it back into shape.
So far I have not opened the motor or the gear case. There is a dent in the top of the motor, but it is not clear if that interferes with the motor or not. It might. Or there might be a problem inside the gear case. Or both.
I just reviewed some other people's complaints on Better Business Bureau, and it is a trail of tears for many. Others have tried shipping defective equipment back to Retsel only to find themselves out the money and the product.
Given Retsel's poor record, I think that I may open it up and see if I can fix it myself.
Simple, give the money back. And either arrange for return shipping or let you keep it.
I can’t imagine your frustration! Sorry you have to go through this. I hope that very soon you are able to get a great mill at a good price that will last you a life time.
Miles, please go to your profile section and enter your email information. I would like to communicate with you outside of this post. I want to verify your purchase and maybe get the purchase number. It infuriates me to see someone cheated the way you say you where! I don’t know anything about Retsel, but the product looks great. There are always 2 sides to a story so I want to check all angles out. If you have email correspondence with them I’d like to take a look. If what you say is true and there are no other extenuating details, I want to help.
Dan
I’m thinking out loud. What do other TFL users think about contacting Retsel and requesting that Miles be made right? What do you see as the pros and cons?
Miles first reported this problem on the forum in August of 2017. His initial post is listed above.
Thanks Dan for your response, and sympathy.
My Retsel order number is 12580. I'll go update my email address.
Simple concept of refund, yes, but maybe not for Retsel. For example, Retsel charged me $349.50 for shipping. I could see from the post office documents that they had paid $208.90 to get the package to me. I asked if I were due $140.60 refund? They never got back to me on that one.
There are A LOT of emails, and I have them. I need to compile them and remove all the >>> marks that my email client feels make the text better.
As it happens, I am just starting work on a YouTube video warning people about Retsel, so I was planning to get the emails organized anyway.
Miles, send us some images. Even if you could get it to work, it is a shame that you paid so much for a damaged mill.
I don’t know yet what I can do, but you have a friend in the USA.
Dan
Thanks!
motor-topView.jpg
motorDent-side.jpg
motorBox-withCrankHandle.jpg
motor-CU_dent.jpg
Have you pulled the black cover? Maybe the armature or something else is in a bind.
I can’t imagine where you have anything to lose.
Dan
Well, yes! I did that just now. Removed 4 bolts and pulled motor case and wiring from armature. Measured the fan vs. the dented motor case and determined that the dent in the case is not binding against the fan. Fan still has clearance.
Armature remained connected to the gear-case. Armature rotated with very little resistance and shaft on front of gear-case rotated okay. Motor shaft is 5/8" by calipers, front shaft that drives the stones is 3/4". I spun the armature enough times to get the front shaft through a rotation. Ratio is 43:1, and stated RPM is 40, so the estimate of motor speed at 1725 looks accurate. No sound of broken gears.
BUT when reassembled and turned on (less than a second), motor does not turn.
I backed the bolts off a bit and tried pushing the motor fan with a screwdriver. It rotates about a half turn, then binds, so now I think that maybe the motor shaft is bent, ever so slightly.
Disassembled again and put a dial indicator on the motor shaft. It is out of true by 0.12 mm or 0.0047 in. Approaching 5 thousandths. I can fix some things, but I don't think I can fix this. Must have taken a brutal hit.
I pulled on the armature and was able to pull it, along with the ball bearing on that end, free from the gear-case. Beyond the ball bearing is a
helical-1inch.jpg
But maybe Retsel could just send me a good armature unit? If yes, then I could send the bent one back to them.
Miles, they do make some motors with a helical gear, but you are right, it would be much tougher to find an exact fit. From the dent, it is possible the rear of the motor was pushed down, and the outer end of the motor shaft could develop a slight bend. Still can't rule out any damage to the gearbox, since we don't know about the gear that meshes with the shaft of the motor. I might feel a little better about your plan if you can insert the motor - rotate by hand back and forth and see where it binds ( ex - binds from 3:00 to 9:00 ) then take it out, rotate the shaft 90 degrees, then reinsert, and again try to spin back and forth and see if it now binds from 6:00 to 12:00 ) , then rotate the shaft another 90 degrees and recheck. If the binding moves with the rotation of the shaft, I think we are pretty sure it is the shaft. If the binding does not rotate, it could be teeth on the internal gear.
Dan Ayo talked to Retsel and gave me some useful suggestions, similar to what barryvabeach was saying. Here's what I did.
I pulled the armature out and rotated 180 degrees, reassembled, turned on. Motor was still was bound up, would not run.
Pulled again and rotated 90 degrees, reassembled; would not run.
Tried backing off one or more of the 4 case bolts and pushing the fan with a screwdriver. With just one bolt semi-tight (3 bolts loose) and the case cocked about 1/8 inch, there was very little resistance. Plugged in and turned on. It ran under power (!), but with a scraping noise. Tried reverse: worse scraping. Turned off. Turned on again, but it was jammed again although as far as I could see, nothing had changed. (But maybe the heated armature had swelled a bit?) Tried jimmying things around a few more times. Got it to run again. But tolerances are tight. If I pry on the case with a screwdriver as it is running I can sometimes reduce the scraping noise. Or make it worse.
Took the armature out again and scrape marks are clear on the armature. It scrapes mainly on one side, which would seem to indicate that it is not spinning perfectly true.
It occurred to me that if I could put the armature in the lathe I might be able to reduce it just enough so that it would not bind up. Would that risk unbalancing it? BUT there is a bearing on one end and the helical gear on the other. It looks like the bearing is pressed on and I don't have a wheel puller. Even if I did, I'm not sure I could remove the bearing successfully without spoiling it. Could I put a dimple hole in the shaft on the bearing end and put that on the dead center? But then I'd have to put the helical gear in the chuck, which would probably ruin it. Could I make some kind of collet, maybe wooden, to accommodate the helical gear? If I could get the armature chucked up, I could probably rig up a grinder to knock a few thousandths off of it. Those layers in the armature don't have to remain insulated from each other do they? If they do, then that might kill it altogether. All these ideas seem quite iffy.
The other question is, if I can get the motor to sort of run so so, would it still start under load, with stones on? The gear box provides a little load of course. And it managed to start up three or four times driving the gears.
Anyway, if I can get it to go reliably with case and windings in a cocked position, maybe I could epoxy the case in position where things don't rub. (No room for metal shims.)
So anyway, some progress made. But situation still not ideal.
Miles, actually, I think that is a lot of progress. My suggestion was different from what you did, but I think your tests show that most likely, there is no damage to the gear box, and the damage is to the rotor assembly. I thought from one of your tests, you had a test indicator - if not, you might be able to get away with a surface gauge https://www.amazon.com/TTC-Universal-Surface-Gage-Dimensions/dp/B00AYGE86W/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_328_lp_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=6F1TN1FETJ3Q62T812ZY or something similar as described below. I would not mess with trying to grind the rotor - that will certainly generate heat , and could destroy the insulation.
If you want to try to get it working temporarily, you would need to make two wooden blocks that were higher than the diameter of the rotor core , and wide enough to support each of the bearings. A small triangular cut out on the top of each block should let the bearings rest in place, and not move forward or back. Then make a mark with a magic marker on the end of the shaft pointing up, then rotate the shaft and determine whether the rotor core goes up and down as you rotate it. If you use a test indicator, you will get an actual measurement of how much it is out ( actually twice the amount it is out if you subtract the high point from the low point ) or if you have a surface gage, set it so it will touch the top of the rotor at its highest point, then see if there is a gap as you rotate it. Again, you want to watch the mark on the end of the shaft to make sure that what you see in the rotor correlates to where the mark is pointing - otherwise, it could just be other factors. Note that even if you don't have a surface gage, you may be able to put a machine screw in a small block of wood, and place that in the center under the rotor, and adjust the screw so that it sticks out and just touches the underside of the rotor - then rotate the rotor and see if there is a gap when the shaft has been rotated 90 degrees. Assuming yes, that means that the rotor shaft is definitely bent along it axis. I would make up a similar jig - two blocks with triangular notches to support the shaft ( not the bearings) - as close to the ends as you can get them, and a thick piece of wood that goes under the blocks. You would then rotate the shaft so the high point on the rotor is up, then attach a clamp to the center of the block, with another piece of wood between the clamp and rotor, and tighten the clamp slightly. Then remove, set it on the test jig and check your progress, then repeat as necessary - 2 or 3 minor tweaks is better than one over correction.
While I think there is a strong chance you can pull this off successfully, I still would want you to follow up with Dan and Retsel to send you a new motor. I doubt the stones or grinding would cause the rotor shaft to bend back, but you are entitled to a properly working machine, I am just hoping we can get this going so you can start grinding some flour while you wait for the replacement parts.
Dan set up a conference call between himself, Retsel, and me. Retsel agreed to send me a new motor with target date for shipping 5 days hence. They said that I should keep the damaged motor for spare parts in case they were ever needed. Sorry to say that having been ground down for a year, my faith in Retsel is low, so I have more hope in a DIY fix. I do have a dial indicator (what some Brits call a clock) as well as a surface gauge. And your instructions for a straightening jig make good sense. Question: You mentioned that heat might damage insulation on the rotor. In this brushless motor rotor, what is insulated from what? Is there something I need to watch out for?
Anyway, judging from the new scrape marks on the rotor, I do not think it is out of round more than a thousandth, if that. So what I hope to do now is to try to modify the stator mounting (via careful grinding and shimming) so that it can be assembled cocked at an angle that accommodates the new geometry and clears the rotor.
Another question is, if I do succeed in mounting the stator solidly at an angle, how might that affect the gears in the gear box? Over time? Not ideal. Maybe I should wait for the new motor.
Miles, sorry, I typed that up after a long day of work, and realized last night that when I mention insulation on the wires, I was thinking of a universal motor, not induction, and had hoped to get up to edit it this morning before you saw it. I still think bending is the right approach, if you grind part of the rotor, that could impact balance, and even if the balance was perfect, you will still get vibration, see below.
I am 100% with your suspicion that you need to make sure you do not damage the gears over time. My completely uneducated guess is that the risk is much lower if you can straighten the rotor shaft back to its original condition. If it were me, I would look at the entire motor, packaging, etc, and try to figure out exactly how the force was applied in shipping to cause the bend in the shaft , and reproduce the force in the opposite direction to get the shaft back to straight. My assumption is that the bearings kept the shaft rigid at the two bearing locations, and the bend occurred due to a force between the two bearings. If I am correct, then it is quite possible that the shaft is also bent in the opposite direction outside the two bearings. If so, then even if you ground down the rotor, and mounted it at an angle, you would still have an out of round condition at the helical gear end which could cause some lateral force in the gear assembly. Mounting it at an angle would also be a problem, since the reduction gear that runs against the helical gear is of a specific width so that the force is distributed over that width. If the angle you mount it is too extreme, it could concentrate the force on a small portion of the width, causing it to wear faster.
If you have a dial test indicator , ( here we call it a dial test indicator to distinguish it from a dial indicator - which could also be used, though it is not normally as precise ) ( dial test indicator ), I would measure how far out it is at the worst part of the rotor, and if you can devise a way ( using some shim or pad ) take a similar measurement at the farthest edge of the rotor. Then try the bending I suggest and see if you can get the total out of true measurement down to the .001 to .002 Here air-gap-air-gap-flux-in-an-electric-motor . it says that the air gap for an induction motor is from .2 mm to 5 mm ( he talks about 3/4 hp and up) So if the air gap was .007 ( .2 mm ) my guess is that the bend must be more than .001 to cause it to contact the stator.
In terms of grinding down part of the rotor, which I would not do, that link also says the air gap must be even, or you will have excessive vibration in the motor .
Miles, I meant to add that if you do the test of the rotor and shaft and find it is not out of true very much, that suggests that perhaps the dent in the motor case has shifted the alignment of the bearings, which could cause the rotor to contact the stator, even if the shaft is not bent. It may not be possible to fix such a problem, on the other hand, if you straightened out that dent ( using a hammer and a block of wood, or blocks of steel or wood and clamps) that may fix the issue. Of course, it could be part bent rotor shaft and part distorted case, so you might have to address both.
I've abandoned the idea of grinding the rotor. My estimate for rotor out-of-round is 1 thousandth or less, but that is based just on the scrape marks it has picked up since I spun it up a few times. John, the Retsel guy, said that the clearance for the rotor should be 3 thousandths. My dial indicator, or dial test indicator as the case may be, is a Mitutoyo No. 2046S, or at least that is what it says. Dial divisions are 0.01 mm. I am a novice user. I think that my earlier test with the indicator was flawed. The rotor was supported on one bearing only, with the helical gear engaged. Dan alerted me to this error.
My estimate of the forces are as follows. I think the package was right side up at the time of the EVENT. I think the package was dropped, and the damage occurred when it hit bottom. The motor was packed, with some cushioning, in a cardboard carton within a larger carton. The motor carton contained the assembled motor, gearbox, and millstones. The larger carton contained a set of steel burrs, a cast aluminum base, and a spun aluminum hopper. There was also a heavy hand crank, basically 823 gms (1.8 lb) of steel 1" x 1/4" x 2 ft., riding just above the motor carton. When the package hit bottom, the handle crushed down on the motor and made the dent. This is plain to see from the mark on the motor carton, and the angle of the dent. There were of course mighty acceleration forces on all components. The hopper came out ovalized, but it was easy to squeeze back into a circle. The rotor shaft is 5/8". If I support each of my arms, hold the rotor by its bearings and give it a spin, I see (under a large magnifier) zero out-of-round. This, along with the scrape marks, makes me now think that the rotor shaft is straight.
The steel case for the motor is tough; so far my attempts at straightening it out have failed, but I was just using some vice grips. I could get more serious but will have to be careful of the copper windings inside. It is not obvious to me that straightening out the dent will solve the problem. The place where the rotor rubs the stator is about 160 degrees from the dent--not what I'd call intuitive. But there are probably subtleties that escape me. Hmm. Maybe the case itself is out-of-round. Well, I just checked the stator with an internal feeler caliper and there seems to be a wee bit of difference in internal diameter. Especially across the diameter with the rotor flakes. I could use a Dremel to grind off a small internal bit of the stator at that spot. Being careful not to leave a lot of grindings about of course. I could use a vacuum cleaner to suck as I grind. Maybe some minor relief there plus some case straightening would do the job.
Miles, if the case it out of round, that would clearly present a problem, since trying to get it back to true means you would have to get it true plus or minus .00005 to .0001 - since the clearance is only .003. Your dial indicator measures to .0003 - which is pretty good, though it is hard to center it on a round object, like the top of the rotor, and get a consistent result, and due to the layout of the probe, you will likely not be able to use it to measure the inside of the motor case. If you were to try to get the case true, it may be easier if you can insert the rotor, and still have access to use a feeler gauge all around the space between the rotor and the stator - though you may not have that access. If you do try, again, I would try to use wood blocks and a clamp to try to squeeze the oval part of the case to bring it back into round. The only positive is that if the rotor shaft is true, and you do get the case back to round, you should be good to go with no fear you will damage the gears.
When it came to straightening the case, wood blocks and a C clamp didn't work because a) the case is too thick and b) access was very limited because of the position of the windings. But when I placed a steel rod against the dent on the inside and hit the other end with a hammer I made some progress. I could not get at all of the dent because of the windings, but I hammered out all I could get to. I also ground away a little of the stator, just the high spot, using a small grind stone in a Dremel tool, with a vacuum cleaner sucking up the chips.
Discovered a broken plastic part. Couldn't see where it should go, nor could I find the missing prong. It looks like it might be a standoff, or an insulator or something.
Reassembled motor and it seems to run okay both forward and reverse. Motor turns; no grinding noises. So yay! Who said it would take a year from the time of ordering? It only took 358 days! Now I need to buy some wheat.
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dentRemains.JPG
Miles, glad you got it working, Still hope they send you a replacement motor at some point. Good luck with milling.
Miles, sorry , from first report, I was hoping a wire had just gotten loose, which would be an easy fix on an induction motor. At this point, I would continue to try to hound the manufacturer. If that eventually proves to be a dead end, and the gear box is not damaged, a competent small appliance repair person would be able to swap out the motor, it looks pretty generic. The gear box, on the other hand, is not standard, and if that was damaged it would be worthless. From the look of the size of the dent, and due to the close tolerance between the stator and the rotor, I am guessing the motor is the problem. I would not try to turn it on again, it is probably seized and can burn up if left on.
Barry, you seem to be knowledgeable. What do you think about removing the black cover to see if there is some binding? I was hoping that he could knock the dent out and start grinding. <fingers crossed>
Dan
Dan, I have taken apart and repaired a number of flour mills, but they were all used, well out of warranty. If he starts taking it apart, I am sure they would reject any warranty claim. If all else fails, yes, you are right, I would shake it a bit and see if there are any loose parts - I don't know the orientation of the parts in that motor - it is possible that the fan blades are in the front, though I would guess they are in the rear. If the dent in the case of the motor is keeping the fan blade from moving, then yes, knocking the case back ( or using clamps and blocks of wood to bend it back ) into the correct position would work. If the dent impacted the stator or rotor, that may well be fatal. Again, while I have not seen one, I looked at a few on ebay, and they seem to use a standard induction motor 1725 rpm. Induction motors come in a variety of physical sizes and mounts- and they go by standard frame designation codes https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/nema-electrical-motor-frame-dimensions-d_1504.html a local appliance repair shop should have little trouble finding a motor that could be substituted. The main things that would need to be matched are the shaft dimension and the mounting pattern.
If they have ignored him for over a year, what is the chance they’ll honor the warranty. But it would be best if Miles waited a while longer. I am convinced that he has a legitimate problem. Tomorrow I plan to call the company and politely speak with their representative. I believe in pray, so I’ll do so before calling. I really feel for our friend.
I am going to ask for the owner’s email. I think he should read this entire post and also have a chance to explain if he has a different view. The mill looks extremely impressive and even though there are a number of complaints, I find it hard to believe that a company that builds such a beautiful piece of equipment would lack so miserably with their customer service. I hope I get a chance to hear the company’s side.
Dan
I checked your profile, and there is still no email to PM you.
I plan to call and have a courteous conversation with a company representative tomorrow, unless you say otherwise. I would like to get to the bottom of this. Miles, please let me know if you prefer I not call.
Retsel is listed as an American company and I’m going to do my best to, “make America great again” :-)
Dan
Many thanks Dan.
Yes, please pray, then call Retsel. I tried calling them a number of times earlier on, but only once did anyone ever answer.
When I look at my TFL profile, it shows my email, and I get notifications for activity on this board. Anyway, my email is miles2018(at)odonnol*dot*com. I'll be happy to give you the compiled thread of emails between me and Retsel. Just send me an email and I will reply.
At this point, I have very little confidence in Retsel honoring their warranty. I see that a fellow baker says that the Retsel Warranty is a Joke; they are probably right. This is also born out by complaints listed by the Idaho Better Business Bureau. A year ago Retsel had an "A" rating there. Currently the BBB lists Retsel as "not BBB accredited".
I am a US citizen, btw, but I have lived in Taiwan since 1990.
I just used a flashlight and looked into the side vents. It seems that the fan is in fact on the gear-case end, the end with the dent (yay!), but I cannot tell if the dent interferes with the fan or not.
I poked my fingernail into the edge of the gear-case gasket and it came out oily, so if I open the gear-case it will be a bit of a mess.
Took a picture of the motor spec label; will include it below. The motor end plate is blank; the info is on the label only.
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Can you poke something through the rear aluminum housing and try to turn the mill. First open up the stones so there is no friction. If it doesn’t move easily it may be in a bind fron the dent. There shouldn’t be oil in the electric motor.
I bet it is a great mill if you can get it to run.
Dan
If the dent is on the end where the fan blades are, my guess is the dent is stopping the fan blade from rotating. If the stones are not touching, and the dent is not impacting anything, the motor will spin with very little force - so what ever you do, don't try to force it, or a blade could break, which would mean a much more expensive repair. The name plate shows that it is a typical 1/4 hp motor, somewhere on the Retsel site I saw that the gear reduction is 43 - which means that the induction motor is 1725 rpm ( induction motors for 60 hz voltage run at either 1725 or 3600 rpm , depending on the number of poles.)
Many many thanks to Dan Ayo and Barry (VA Beach). Without their moral(e) and tech support, my Retsel Mil-Rite would still be lying dead in the living room. With their combined help I opened up the motor, banged out the dents in the case, ground down the high spot in the stator, and put the whole thing back together. Only had one part left over! :^)
But, IT LIVES!
Retsel was happy to hear that the mill is working, and now they no longer plan to send me a new motor (if they ever did in the first place). But let's emphasize the positive.
We just finished eating our first loaf made with home-ground whole wheat. And yes, it was delicious! What a difference. And why the difference? Is it just freshness? Or do commercial millers subtract something? Add something? Or (too bad for them) maybe I just got hold of some better-tasting wheat? Who knows?
My aunt's impact mill was loud as hell by the way, and slow too. The Mil-Rite is much quieter, which is a blessing; and it only takes a few minutes to produce enough flour for my small batches.
My wife says I should include a couple pictures. So here. First: grinding wheat flour. Second: first ww bread. It's chewy, and delicious.
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Miles, I hope you publicly post your woes with Retsel. I personally spoke with the Retsel rep (I believe his name is Johnny) on your behalf and I was with you on the phone when we spoke together with that same rep. So I KNOW what you went through. It is a travesty that I am unable to effectively communicate.
As a very decent and fair person, I think you owe it to the public to broadcast your experience. I don’t know if the Retsel mill is a good product or not, but I do know that their support after purchase and their complete lack of commitment to the customer is nothing less than atrocious! Please, consider a YouTube video or something similar. How many good, kind, and thoughtful bakers are considering a Retsel at this very moment? I’d hate to see another baker go through what you experienced. And according to a number of other Retsel users, your experience is the norm.
I would use a Mortar and Pestle before buying a Retsel...
Dan Ayo
For those interested. Here is some text copied from the home page of their website on 7/28/2018.
The best guarantee
Retsel® offers indisputably the best warranty on the market today. All items that we sell on this web site, with the exception of special orders have a 30 day, no hassle return policy. Take our mills for a 30 day “test grind”. If you don’t like the way it looks, sounds or performs, we will take it back and issue you a full refund. No questions asked. No return authorization required. A 25% restocking fee may apply on some close out discounted sales, and used or returned special order items. This policy speaks for itself. All electric Retsel® mills have a 10 year manufacturer's limited warranty.All manual Retsel mills carry a limited lifetime warranty. “Always on time, always online, always in person”.
I agree, Dan. Retsel's performance was beyond awful. They are not stupid people, but their attitude needs a major correction. I ultimately sent them an email spelling out as clearly and forcefully as I could what they need to do to run a business that they can be proud of.
I do want to warn potential buyers and I am already working on a YouTube video that I hope will caution people before they fall into the Retsel pit. I considered using "Caveat Emptor" vs. "Buyer Beware", and had decided that the latter would probably communicate better, since, you know, Latin speaking bakers are a lot fewer than previously.
The funny thing is that since the mill is now working (thanks to you and Barry), I am starting to love it. I need to be careful that the video doesn't turn into a sales piece!
At this point Retsel represents an extreme contrast: very good mill, paired with very bad management.
Miles, please remember to post the link to YouTube here, so we can take a look. This topic may provide a reference for others visiting TFL looking for information.
The video should provide a valuable service to prospective Retsel buyers. Especially, since your experience is not unusual.
I am very happy that you finally managed to get a mill that works.
Danny
Thanks again for the support and help of Fresh Loaf members. It made all the difference between bitter disappointment and success.
Update: Retsel decided that since my repairs worked and I now have a running mill, they will not be sending the new motor they promised. No surprise there, sorry to say. The 'excellent' "Retsel guarantee" is only excellent if Retsel honors it. But honor is in short supply over at Retsel. They ran out quite some years ago and have been unable to replenish.
I uploaded my Retsel warning video yesterday (14 SEP 2018). It's got narration, video, pictures, and a song that I wrote and recorded, "We Put You through the Mill". Hope you like it. Link: https://youtu.be/Gj7_MjRbhSA
Great job miles. Have you thought about a singing career or maybe video production :-)
I sincerely hope perspective buyers do their due diligence before thinking about buying a mill from Retsel
Danny
Thanks for the kind words; so glad you liked it. I did want to put out a warning. And I had fun putting together the video, and doing the song. Especially the song!
Hey Miles
After reading your entire story with Retsel. I would still give a try and purchase a Retsel mill, but I'm going with their Uni-Ark hand mill. I'm also living outside The States, which I'm from Hong Kong. Just wondering how did you made the payment, as I'm not familiar with neither "pay check" or "money order". I've USD in my Paypal account but it seems that Paypal wouldn't be able to do any of the method from above. Did you just make it through local banks? Thanks
I have a bank account in the States, and I mailed them a personal check drawn against that account. I would suggest using a credit card (not debit card) if possible; it gives you more leverage in case things go awry.
The folks at Retsel are masters of delay.
Another way to pay would be via bank cashier's check. You go to a bank with a branch in the US and ask for a cashier's check payable to Retsel in US dollars for the given amount, fill out some forms, pay a fee around US$14 or so, and mail said check to Retsel in Idaho. No leverage with this method though. Once Retsel negotiates the check, the money is theirs.
Wow the headache seems to started from the payment too, lol. I'll check it out on the method. Thanks for the info :)
Always happy to help Retsel make a sale. ;^) I do quite like the Retsel mill I bought, and the nightmare of dealing with Retsel is already beginning to fade.
So, my retsel millrite breaks down in one year and when I call Retsel support they ask me to ship the gear and money order for 15$ for shipping the new gear to them and after a week (of receiving my gear) they tell me it is a wear and tear and that I have to pay for the new gear. The gear box has plastic gears inside (please open and see if you don't believe) and if a broken gear is not covered under warranty, I dont know what else is. Anyway, the bigger issue is their attitude, So I call them to ask why it is not covered under warranty and the guy is not bothered and hangs up. I call again and he blocks my number. I call from a different number and so he blocks that new number also. So bottom line
1. Most metal parts are made of aluminum (toxic to health)
2. Gears are plastic
3. Serious attitude problem with people working there
4. Very dated practices - you have send money order and wait for several weeks and send several reminders for everything.
If you don't want to die of blood pressure problems and get into anger management issues, unless you really hate yourself and are looking to make your life miserable - look somewhere else.
The Retsel attitude is notorious, a serious deal killer. Too bad I found out too late.
In my estimation, aluminum is okay unless it comes into contact with acid foods such as citrus or tomatoes. I deem it okay for grain processing.
I hope and pray that the gears in my new Mil-Rite hold up. If parts ever break, I will try to machine replacements on my own, which will definitely be a challenge. But easier than dealing with Retsel.
My machine may be a one odd faulty piece (excusable), my concern is the attitude of their service department. They are not willing to deal with you if you don't give them more money
My experience with Retsel is consistent with so many of you. Their product quality is good but their customer service is bad. I sent them an email requesting a pdf of the owners manual. I included the serial number of my mill so they know it is new, but they said if I did not purchase it directly from them they will not send me the pdf file. I can go to numerous websites and download owners manuals for free with no requirement to prove I even own their product. I would have to send Retsel $14.95 and they would send me a paper copy. From reading this conversation thread I wonder how long I would have to wait. This is not a major issue but it is a symptom of their overall attitude toward customers.
I would not send money for a manual; chances of actually receiving anything are low. Do you have a specific question or two? I could look em up and give answers. Or give me your email addy.
Zombie thread, but this issue is an evergreen, and I wanted to give back to this site. My own experience with Retsel has been positive so far. I bought a Mil-Master used off Craigslist for a reasonable price some 5-10 years ago (they even threw in 20# of wheatberries from their farm!), and it has kept chugging away week after week. The mill seems solid. We just set the grind for wheatberries and rye and don't mess with it.
Based on others' experiences I've read here, I'm not looking forward to dealing with Retsel customer service when something inevitably goes wrong, but we will have gotten far more than our money's worth by then.
Since whole wheat flour goes rancid so quickly, getting this mill has been one of our best baking purchases. (Along with a 3/8" Baking Steel griddle, but that's another review).