Help, I need a new oven!
Last Sunday, my most epic baking day yet (14 loaves, five types), my oven bit the dust. It's a less than five-year-old Kenmore gas oven. After preheating for 2.5 hours on Sunday, it only got up to 200 degrees. More broiling and preheating wouldn't get it hotter. The repairman came on Friday and said we needed a new main circuit board. And a new sensor. The total would be $320. We bought the oven used for $150.
It is possible that the huge billows of steam did something to the board. Frankly, I don't see why you need electronic circuitry in an oven. It is possible that the last 6 months of intense baking with multiple stones in the oven caused a problem. I don't know, I'm not a mechanic. But I do know that one should be able to bake in an oven without melting down the circuits.
So. My conundrum now is about oven types. Here in Southern California, there are tons of vintage ovens from the 40s and 50s around. They are tempting both for the reliability of mechanical and solid components, and for the possibility of a double oven (yeah, Wedgewood!).
For all you bakers out there, which way should I go? Is it better to get a newer (and bigger) oven that may break down again with all the steaming and baking? Or should I go for a 50-year old model with a smaller oven but sturdier components? FYI, I'm looking at Wedgewood, O'Keefe and Merritt, and Gaffers and Sattler for vintage ovens. I have no idea what new oven brand would be good.
It's not the electronics, nor that oven is of recent vintage - it's that you are treating a household oven like the commercial oven it isn't. I doubt even a vintage oven will hold up long under that kind of mistreatment.
Todays manufacturers and technology have planned obsolesence - I think it is disgraceful! What is to stop a circuitboard developer from programming a breakdown after so many hours? I know they do that - I once talked to an engineer for a popular electronic hair product company who confirmed this.
The components of the oven should be cheap to replace if we are to pay these exhorbitant costs to buy it in the first place. I know yours was cheap - but I have the same issue with a $3000 double oven. Imagine the landfill waste because of people wanting to replace things because of these circuitboard issues - I think it is horrible and I wish manufacturers would end this. I don't mind paying more for something if I know it going to last - or that it won't be crazy expensive to replace the electronics.
You hit the nail on the head. Think in terms of pollution, resources, oil usage, or whatever you want ...the world is too high in pollution, too low on resources, and oil is in short supply for our needs. If it weren't for a global recession, oil prices would be through the roof ...and commodities and resources already are. I've said for years now that the solution is to stop the low-quality insanity. It is NOT more economical to buy a new 'whatever' every couple of years because the quality was garbage compared to spending more on a higher quality version that does NOT fail after a couple of years. The US manufacturing base was built on a reputation of quality in the first place, and it worked and worked well. When we compromised quality in favor of product turnover and availability then guess what? Japan became the new leader and THEY did it by mandating quality. China will do it next if they get smart about it, and there are hints here and there out there that say they are ...or trying to. They have many challanges to address and can't afford to address them all. Worldwide, we could reduce overall cost of living, reduce how much is going into solid waste landfills (and the ocean), greatly reduce the demand on resources, and dramatically reduce the amount of oil used ...if we'd all boycott junk from junk companies. It's crazy to sacrifice so much just so some foreign company can make a quick buck by generating wasteful turnover. Ok ...off my podium. I'm just tired of all the junk on the market and how the trickle down from running business like that is at the root of most of our problems today (the other big 'root' being government involvement in anything.)
Brian
I totally disagree with you. Years ago it was not unusual to subject a household oven to "that kind of treatment."
For example: My ex-boyfriend's grandmother came from the old country - Italy. Her days were spent cooking, baking - she made everything (and I mean everything) from scratch. Pastas, breads, sauces, meats - that coal stove was always on AND she had a bureau in the hallway of her third floor apt LOADED with every kind of Italian pastry - cannolis, cookies, cake - for the postman, neighbors, relatives - anyone who came up those stairs were expected to help themselves.
All of this - she made herself, from scratch.
Frankly, I'd like to see anyone in the commercial sector try to hold a candle to her, (or to any mom or grandmom of her generation).
Once more, the appliances that were built years ago were built with the intention of their lasting, not wearing out, like they do now. Even the stainless steel that is mined in Asia is a poorer quality.
I think vintage ovens will hold up under the stress of huge baking. I've owned and cooked with "Chambers" ovens before. I'm sure other vintage ovens are similar. The reason I think vintage ovens can "take the heat" is because there are nothing but metal parts. The pilot has to be relit if it goes out, and can be replaced if malfunctioning relatively inexpensively....no automatic electric starters.......the ovens are basically metal gas outlets and heavy steel. I've known of old gas ovens being professionally blown out after years of service...sort of "cleaning the pipes" to restore gas flow. ...but this isn't very expensive. Modern ovens are actually built rather well, but the digital and automatic (pilot) components are not meant to last that long....and they are expensive enough to make most people rationalize buying another oven....pretty smart. Don't be surprised at how heavy a vintage oven can be to move......
As I have done in the past, search the interwebs for an appliance parts website. they offer great advice and pictures to help you order and install your own replacement parts. This is usually accomplished with great savings to you.
Peter,
You might want to consider going to fixitnow.com. Not only will you find advice on how to repair your oven, but you can get the scoop on unreliable models. Searching the forum is free, and a $5 donation to the "beer fund" will get you posting rights. I have saved at least $800 on repairs by using it as a resource.
Eric (not affiliated in any way with fixitnow.com)
Peter, et al ...
Do not buy that argument that they are breaking down because we are treating home ovens ovens like commercial ones. Commercial ovens just are bigger, have built in steam and hold heat in the baking surface better/longer) It IS the crappieness of modern appliances. An oven is a REALLY simple device ... insulated box and a heat source with a thermostatic (coil) feedback control on the heat source. An oven should last as long as the thermostat and heat source last and both should be simple to repair/replace. . But, if you make the heat source (burner or electric element) really cheap and/or make the thermostat really cheap (or digital) it will crap out ... which is the case. Look at the heating element in a new electric oven vs the element in an old one ... the old one is MUCH more substantial.
So ... Buy an older oven but make sure that thermostat and burner/element parts are available (replacements will not be as good as the originals however). Do not think that a home version of a commercial stove is better, by the way. They are not.
Paul
Why urge people not to believe the truth? It's not a matter of having the same components, it's what the components are built of, how the oven is insulated, vented, wired, etc... etc... Lots of details and lots of differences. (Simple in theory doesn't mean simple in practice.)
If you could use a $500 home oven in place of a $5000 commercial oven, there wouldn't be a commercial oven sold.
Maybe, but I'll bet the $500 oven would last 5X longer if the heat and steam from cooking didn't have access to the electronics. That's called "engineering" and a little foresight on the part of the engineer (and I am one) would've prevented that. I don't doubt that either the manufacturer didn't care (not as likely) or that the company that did the design and manufacturing under contract rammed the design through fast and dirty and didn't care if it lasted or not as long as it met the product specifications. Ask me ...I know. When working at a large blue-chip American company as an electrical engineer, I watched China and Taiwan do that to us over and over ...the only way to prevent it was to have an engineer permanently on location overseas to babysit everything they did ...else accept the short cuts, cheats on supplies and suppliers and quality, etc. In defense of the Chinese, note that they work extremely hard, often putting in 18+ hour days and just don't have time to finesse things much of the time. They are making an unreal effort to pull into the 1st world and aren't there yet. Still ...I believe in refusing low-quality results, and, whatever it costs them, they (or whoever) needs to do the job right and to do it with quality, no cheating.
Brian
The difference in a commercial vs. a home oven is not as simple as the cost of the parts and construction. My guess is that half the cost of a commercial oven is that they are made in very low volume compaired to the home oven. Marketing and after sales service is also a big factor in a commercial oven.
The real problem with the home oven today is that they are made to "look nice" not to use. Only a small percentage of ovens sold today are used by folks that cook and bake a lot -- hence our frustration.
Look at the quality difference between washer and dryes (which every household makes heavy use of) and ovens.
It is part of the game.
Dave
Microwaves are the same way ...When ours failed, the service man told us that the very high majority of failures was the membrane-type push button panel that they all have. Something that should sell for $5 (if you compare to other products with similar components and quality), yet they want $75 to $125 for the thing, plus labor to put it in. We bought a new microwave and intalled it ourselves, and it cost less than $200. One small cheap piece bad ...one big piece of junk in the landfill.
Brian
My experience with modern home appliances is that they have a very short life expectancy no matter how they are used. Short as compared with appliances made 40-50 years ago. Many appliances from the 50's & 60's were replaced not because they failed but rather because the consumer was convinced that they needed to "upgrade" or "modernize" their appliance. So much for modernization.
Jeff
Thanks everyone for the comments. I think there's incontrovertible evidence that today's appliances cannot compare in quality and durability to vintage ovens.
With that said, I disagree that using steam to bake bread is mistreatment of a residential oven. Anything put in an oven will produce steam to some degree, and even the cheapest modern ovens have vents. Ovens are still meant to get hot to bake and cook food, and water vapor will be released.
I'm reluctant to buy another modern oven but it looks as if I have no choice, based on the oven size I want and the kitchen space available. If baking bread ruins another oven, so be it. I also plan on simmering stews, finishing meats, baking cookies, and doing lots of other things with my oven that, while possibly qualifying as "mistreatment", will continue to bring me joy and good food.
Well, since you're going for a modern product (which is going to be better insulated than any vintage product), why not look into an oven which includes steam injection? They're now available for home kitchens.
Was the title of that book,The Waste Makers?
Ray
Does anyone have a Viking oven? Looking for pros and cons to this brand.
I finally got an oven. It has been over 3 weeks since I baked and I'm itching to get back into it. I decided it was better to get a solid oven that's already been working for 60 years, than to roll the dice on another recent model. I got an O'Keefe and Merritt double oven. The bonus is that I have two ready-made proofing boxes now, with those pilot lights going. Also with two ovens I can do two types of bread, or we can make dinner while I'm baking bread. Thanks to everyone for the comments and I can't wait to start baking again. The important question now: which bread should I bake first, to annoint the new oven?
Wow - that oven is BEAUTIFUL!! I never knew they made double ones like that back then - I've seen what we call "gas on gas," meaning one side was for heating. But this baby is gorgeous - and you have two ovens... I am so jealous! ;-D
Way to go!
This thread set to me Googling around to see if I could find my mom's old 6-burner Roper (circa 1960 I think - my father bought it from an early television cooking show in Chicago that was cancelled). Besides 2 ovens and 6 burners, two of the burners had a sensor which touched the bottom of the pan and was supposed to automatically adjust the flame to maintain a constant temperature (those never worked in my lifetime, but are an interesting example of how technology is often tried, fails, and is later perfected and reintroduced as new).
I didn't find that stove, but I did find this site with pictures of a Roper 8-burner home stove: http://www.antiquegasstoves.com/pages/1roper.html Wow! Also some interesting pictures of refurbishing such a beast.
sPh
Now THAT is a beautiful stove.
Jeff
At first glance I thought they were a pair of washer and dryer! LOL It took me a second to register... how wonderful and hey I want one of those double oven, too!
That is a beautiful oven! And it really fits the ambience of your kitchen as well!
Which bread? Hmmm... I'd pick one of Hamelman's rustic sourdough multi-grain breads. Something earthy, wholesome, and full of great flavor.
Brian
Ancient JennAir breathed its last. Research was not encouraging. Repair sites had GE as least frequent repairs. Bought a GE at home depot & was happy for 22 mo.(almost all have 1 yr only warranty). It lost the main board. I replaced, 6 wks later, it went south again. Every bit of research has the same discouraging report. Quality is lousy - doesn't matter the brand or the price. The repair shops said the more features, the more repairs. Microwaves - same way. 'Seems like a gaping hole some company could fill & do quite well.