Should I use steam or put a cloche on it?
A while back I had a discussion with David about when he used steam and when he used a cloche (or something like that), and I think his reply was some like "I'm still working that out". I've been trying to work that out over the last 3 or 4 months now too, so I thought it might be a nice time to share my thoughts and get the opinions of other TFLers.
When is it better to use steam and when is it better to use a cloche (I'm using cloche here as a generic term for an inverted roaster, tin foil pan, Le Cloche, etc.)?
When I first starting using a cloche I was really impressed with how much oven spring I got. In the beginning I think I was putting an inverted roaster on nearly everything. But as time progressed I began to notice that some of my cloched loaves had shiner, somewhat thinner crusts and not-very-evident scoring marks, so I've gone back to using steam on most of my white flour and rye flour loaves and now reserve the cloche for only 100% whole wheat or high percentage whole wheat breads. For me, it is the whole wheat types of loaves that don't get a lot of oven spring and therefore tend to have a dense crumb and a heavy feel about them. When I put a cloche on these types of loaves, I get about 20% more oven spring and a much lighter crumb.
Many people have asked if it is possible to get a light crumb when using 100% whole wheat flour. My experience is, "Yes" as long as you use a cloche. And I grind my own flour as well.
Another factor in deciding not to cloche my white flour loaves is their slackness. I esp. notice disappearing scoring when using a cloche on slack dough no doubt owing to the increased moisture level from the dough and the cover.
For the record, I'm using an electric oven that is well insulated, holds its heat and steams OK.
(Sorry about the picture quality--these were taken with my old camera.)
100% whole wheat loaves
Uncloched
Cloched
--Pamela
Interesting topic, Pamela. I haven't baked enough to have an opinion myself. One limiting factor, of course, is shape. Hard to find something to cover a stone full of baguettes. Easy to do a boule. I'm particularly interested because I've broken my stone and I'm about to replace it and I'm thinking of one of those stone/cover/steam generator dojobbies <- technical bread term.
:-Paul
I broke a whole bunch of cheap stones but then I bought a more expensive one and I really like it. Plus it is thicker and bigger. I doubt it will break. It was worth the extra bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Manufacturers-14-inch-16-inch-Pizza/dp/B000ORE0KA
I don't think you probably want to cloche baguettes, however. But you can use all types of things to cover breads (roasters, tin foil pans, etc.). All seem to do a good job.
--Pamela
Hi Pamela,
I've had my stone for about 15 years, so I got my money's worth. (in the years BTFL -Before The Fresh Loaf - I used a bread machine to make the dough and baked on the stone) I've had my eye on the large (15" x 20") stone at fantes http://fantes.com/pizza.html#round I like the idea of a backsplash to help me orient myself with the peel as to where the back of the stone is when I'm placing bread. I like to bake baguettes on the top shelf and I can't see the back of the stone when I do it. Less likely to have escapees with a back lip.
Why, I wonder, do these stones have feet? They get in the way sometimes of getting it to sit level on the oven rack.
:-Paul
I've heard good things about the stone from fantes. Yeah, I pushed more than a few things off the back--usually messy stuff like pizza too.
The feet do sound odd--no clue why it has them.
15 x 20 = really nice size. If I ever break mine I'll consider that one.
--Pamela
from the fantes.com site...
Personally, I think the "feet" is just a gimmick to distinguish this stone from others. (I like the backspash though). Overall, it's a nice stone (I bought one several months ago)
Great topic, Pamela,
I admit to having been skeptical about covering my dough while baking, when I first heard about it. For some reason I associated La Cloche with No Knead bread, whether that's right or wrong, and figured it was just a different kind of bread-baking.
For steaming purposes I tried everything, including Paul's dojobby steamer, and generally got decent oven spring, but I wasn't convinced that that was all there was. Somewhere along in my TFLing David (dmsnyder) posted some gorgeous loaves and mentioned a turkey roaster lid in connection with the oven spring, So I had to try it. And the first time I tried it I got more oven spring than I ever had before, and the result was dynamic ears and bloom and gorgeous expansion from the scoring, and a beautiful crust and open crumb, and in a word I was sold. (And since Susan from San Diego planted the seed in David's mind, I give credit to her as well.)
I don't find the improved oven spring limited to whole grain loaves, though that said, I bake with at least 30% whole grain most of the time, so maybe that's not a fair comparison.
I have baked (20% whole grain) baguettes (somewhat shorter than standard, maybe 17 inch) under the turkey roaster lid, and enjoyed the oven spring on those as well. Hamelman's 40% Caraway Rye as well, with good results.
Side benefit: I love that I'm not opening and closing the oven door all the time!
So I'll be following to see what others have found.
David
I have been covering my loaves with, a turkey pan, steamer injector, la colche, everything. What I would like to know...? I have preheated the lids and also covered the loaves without pre-heating the lids...so far I think pre-heating the lids works best for me...maybe you are always supposed to pre-heat the lids...I don't know?...I would like to hear others opinions on whether to pre-heat lids for all loaves all the time..or maybe not with certain doughs? There is one exception..I think about the la colche...where Iam a bit confused...the instructions that come with it say to put it into the oven with your dough in it...meaning not pre-heated..I have read where a few people have had the rather thin bottom of the bell la colche break..so I was always preheating my bell la colche with the oven. Then I ordered the elongated..batard type la colche..well I have tried both methods...pre-heating and not pre-heating my la colche's...nothing has cracked so far. I also sometime just use my stone and bell la colche lid..pre-heating both together. I would like to know what others do and results of the loaves..oven spring..less, more, ect.. with or without pre-heating the lids?
Sylvia
I don't preheat my roaster. The oven is so hot that I don't think it makes any difference. I always get a lot of oven spring whenever I put the room temperature roaster on top of the dough.
--Pamela
Hi Sylvia, I always rinse my ss mixing bowl with really hot water before covering the boule, because that is what Susan told me to do! And I'm not very venturesome so I usually follow directions. Works well for my sourdough, great oven spring and even ears at times. If you check out Eric's videos at Breadtopia you will see him preheating the cloche tops and bottoms with good results. Not sure that this answers your question but I'm sure you will get lots of opinions, A.
A tin-foil roasting pan doesn't require preheating. It cools off in less than two minutes and that allows for easy handling.
The aluminum reflects the heat (radiation) instead of storing it and then passing it along (through convection and evaporation) as in a conventional cloche, so it is quite energy efficient. So I would say that preheating is required when using a conventional cloche - just as you need to preheat an oven stone.
I have had success with only preheating the oven and oven stone for 20 minutes when using the tin-foil cloche. I leave the tin-foil cover on for 5 to 10 minutes. I think I can acheive slightly better results using a conventional steam pan, but I'm not interested in that since it is too engergy-intensive. I'm also not really intested in overbrowned bread. I find really dark crust unapealling, but you can achieve that using this technique by playing around with the time spent with the cover on and off.
At the prices I pay for flour, water, salt and yeast, electricity is the most expensive part of my bread baking. It's also the part that has the highest environmental footprint and so anything I can do to make it more enviro-friendly is of interest to me.
I'm baking some bread now and I'm going to use the tin foil cover and only pre-heat my thick stone for 20 mins. I also think it's just a waste to use any more heat that needed...especially now with summer here and the air conditioner running! I hope that will be long enough for the stone to get good and hot!
Thank you, arzajac!
Sylvia
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/qahtan/bake/sourdough.jpg
I some times use La Cloche, either my home made one or Sassafras.
But I use both the same way.
I place my dough (loaf) on the bottom of the cloche, mist with water, leave to rise on counter top, when ready place lid over dough, place all in hot oven and bake.
I don't soak my cloche, or heat it in oven before using, which I think would cause serious burns.
I just follow the direction that came with La Cloche.qahtan
Sure, every baker here has an oven - but what kind? The quality of the ovens used by TFL bakers is all over the map.
We can start with whether an oven is gas or electric. Gas ovens, especially lower end gas ovens, generally cannot hold steam as well as an electric oven. This has been confirmed by many TFL posters.
But we need to go beyond the gas vs electric factor. How well insulated is the oven? How tight is the door? How quickly does it come to heat? How long can it really hold steam (if you're not using a cover). What is the oven size?
I hope that those who respond will go into *detail* about their ovens.
Perhaps you could start by telling us about your oven. I, for one, would really appreciate it. TIA.
Hi Tia,
Why don't you start it off with a description of your oven?
:-Paul
I actually have 4 types of ovens...but for now Im just interested in finding out about covering during baking..what method everyone uses!
Sylvia
Thank you all for so many great answers! Looks like I have tried all the above at one time or another! One thing I would not do is put water on my clay bakers. I do spray some water on the inside of the metal turkey pan lids..whether I have used them pre-heated or not pre-heated.
But one thing I worry about is..the oven stone needs to be hot in order to serve it's propose and give a good oven spring. I pre-heat my oven stone for nearly an hour at the least amount of time.
Like arzajac, I do not like using up extra energy that is not needed..the longest pre-heating I do for my stone is when I make pizza's..and I have found it does make a difference to have the stone really hot...but Im just at a loss to decide on how long is long enough to heat the stone for baking loaves of bread. I wish there was a way to measure the heat of the stone when it reaches the same temperature as the oven is set for...I do not have one of those expensive lazer thermo. but I think I might have to invest in one..it would come in handy for the wfo and I think it's the only way to really judge when the stone is hot enough to bake bread under a cover!
Sylvia
I've bought a number a thermometers to measure the oven temperature and find that it does indeed take about an hour for the temperature to max out.
Unfortunately I always forget the thermometer is in the oven when I clean it. I can't tell you how many I ruined that way.
--Pamela
I burned up mine in the wfo....it takes a hour to heat up right for my pizza...any less I can notice a difference too! I think Susan has a great oven...she says her oven has trays and she doesn't need a stone...great oven! I have seen it discussed can't remember exactly which forum...but that baking on a cookie sheet works as good as a stone!! I don't know..have never tried that with a cover. I'm not sure how that would turn out..I would hate to waste a good loaf finding out!
Sylvia
It does sound like a great oven that Susan has, but I don't think you have room for another oven, Sylvia. :-)
--Pamela
"lol", I didn't count the bar-b-q...can I count the bar-b-que? "lol"
Sylvia
A number of people have referenced IR thermometers, which, I believe, measure the surface temperature of what you aim them at. And not too expensive.
For example: http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7875-PocketTherm-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B000FJR0SG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1247534106&sr=8-5
I imagine some folks have definite models to recommend.
:-Paul
Thank you for the reference..this is a good price...I have seen some very nice ones for around 60 and up !
Hi Sylvia,
Now I'm convinced that I need this:
http://www.amazon.com/IRT0421-Non-Contact-Infrared-Thermometer-Targeting/dp/B0017L9Q9C/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2K4HXDB8LCVS&colid=5EIG3GYX6WW0
And I don't even have a wood fired oven to play with.
:-Paul
My daughter has one..different brand...! For wfo..you point them at any of the walls, floor, ceiling and get an instant reading, very cool gadget!...I've been using my hand and counting..not the same!
Sylvia
Thanks, Paul, for this link. I've always wanted one of these.
--Pamela
Hi Pamela,
I've been very lax about temperatures in my baking so far. I've noticed that temperature has a dramatic difference on how long it takes a refreshed starter to peak, but somehow it just hadn't penetrated my consciousness that the whole fermenting/proofing process is extremely temperature dependent as well. I crab about inconsistencies, yet I haven't monitored the environmental temperatures at all; I've just figured to keep an eye on things and when it doubles, it doubles. No more. I'm working on Hamelman's 40% caraway rye right now and I kept the initial rye sour starter in a 70F water bath overnight. I used my digital oven thermometer to check the dough temp after kneading. This IR thermometer seems like just the ticket for convenience, and I especially look forward to checking the temp of the baking stone surface. Is that hour-long preheat really necessary? At what point does the stone achieve 550F? I'm now officially onboard the IR train. toot toot.
:-Paul
OK I'm sold. I'll order it today. At least I won't burn this one up in the self-cleaning cycle.
--Pamela
We'll be IR buddies. Off to Amazon right now.
:-Paul
I had to do a little more checking..but I think this is a great buy and free shipping! Also temperature reading will go high enough to be ok for the wfo..though it can heat up to over 1000F..Thanks Pablo for finding this one...I have no more reason to procrastinate getting my Lazer IR.
Sylvia
I just ordered it myself. We could all 3 get together and play IR laser tag or something... Amazon is such a scoop sometimes, eh? I thought of your wfo when I saw the 900F+ temp range.
I just ordered that 15 x 20 stone from fantes as well. Once everything arrives in WA then I drive down and pick it up.
:-Paul
Now I will know not only what my wfo is doing..but I can check my indoor stone and be able to decide how long to pre-heat! That makes me very happy!
Sylvia
I just ordered it, Paul, and got totally freaked out because there was a new name in my amazon address book with a hidden address. I changed my password and called amazon only to find out that it was you. You appeared there because I ordered through your link and it was on your wish list.
--Pamela
I got Paul's wish list too!
Sylvia
Hi Sylvia,
As subfuscpersona pointed out, we all have different baking equipment, so there are lots of variables that differentiate our baking experiences, beyond the different recipes we use.
I wanted to point out that I only preheat my oven for as long as it takes for it to get up to temperature before loading the bread into it. I have a good thick baking stone, use a turkey roaster lid (room-temperature), and the oven is moderately priced and uses gas for fuel. (I offer this, in part, because I think we all need to consider our energy use.)
When I have two sizable loaves to bake, which won't fit in the oven at the same time, naturally I bake them in series. I don't notice a difference in oven spring when using the roaster lid, in spite of the fact that the second loaf is getting into a more fully preheated oven. They will both jump in the oven and usually deliver a nice open-textured crumb and delicious crust as well.
I am curious to hear from other bakers on this subject.
David
David, Thank you, that's what I wanted to know..my stone is also very thick and I use pretty much the same method with the turkey lid, except I have been preheating the oven much longer...I'am very glad to hear that pre-heating just up to oven temperature works! I think pre-heating with my convection turned on helps the stone get hotter much faster too! Nearly all of the time, I bake large loaves and do one at a time !
Sylvia
Hi Sylvia,
I think our bread baking methods are similar, and perhaps our ovens are as well (though I only have one :-( )...
I was concerned about preheating the oven for an hour when baking serially, and to be honest I just wanted to get on with the job, so I started popping the first loaf in when the oven beeped "Ready!". I too use convection, and that may help the preheating. When I still got huge oven spring with the roaster lid (spritzed inside, for sure!), I was quite happy about the limited preheating.
I agree too about pizza: the stone needs to be HOT! Some people finish the pizza preheat with the broiler for a few minutes. (I don't bake that many pizzas, 'cause we have really amazing pizza here in New Haven. Lots of Neapolitans settled here in the early 20th century, and quite a few built large wood and coal-fired ovens, which get mighty hot.)
I don't doubt what Eric said about the temperature of his baking stone (because I trust him in all things baking). That said, my baking stone holds the heat very well, so I wonder if all baking stones aren't created unequal? More to the point, I don't like using sheet pans for baking bread. Been there, done that, don't like the results. Since I don't extra-heat my baking stone, it doesn't change the energy use, except that I think using the stone probably shortens the bake on the second loaf by a minute or two.
Thanks again to Pamela for starting this thread!
David
Thanks for this report, Pamela!
I noticed that the top markings I put on the boule almost completely disappeared after it was covered by a roasting pan. I loved the oven spring I got though.
-Elizabeth, (Eeek! It's summer!)
Pablo,
The one at Amazon you refer to is identical to the one I use, in function. These are very helpful for many differing uses around the house. Being able to accurately measure water, dough, oven, refrigerator, room, proof box, daughters ear, BBQ grill all with a single click is unbelievably easy. As we all know just a few degrees can make a big difference when you are waiting for a natural levain to rise the dough.The IR Temp meter is the most used tool in my kitchen.
Soundman, your comment about pre heating a big stone for a long time makes me remember how surprised I was at how long it takes to heat and how quickly it cools off after loading dough. That's what made me try baking everything on a sheet pan.
Unless I am baking more than one session, I never use a stone these days. Even then it's iffy. There is very little noticible difference in the crust and oven spring with and without a stone. If you don't want to believe me, try removing the dough after 3 minutes, just long enough to shoot the temp of the stone under the dough. Then check again after the bake to see how warm the stone is after the bread is done. You will be surprised at how cool it is.
Eric
Very interesting, Eric, about how infrequently you are using your stone these days (also the info about the IR).
Thanks for sharing this info; I'll try using a sheet pan for a while esp. now that the weather has turned so warm here.
--Pamela
Thank you, Eric, I knew I had read somewhere, sometime about someone..not using the stone but instead a pan..I wanted to hear more about this..Susan's said her oven has shelves and she doesn't need to use a stone! The problem is I need a cookie sheet/pan large enough that my turkey lid will fit on it...what size pans/lids do you use?
Sylvia
Eric, I know the stone drops in temperature quite a bit when I'm making pizza's..it is easiest to see this..because they bake so fast and putting another right in to bake, I can see the difference in temperature change all the time just by watching how much longer it takes for the undercrust to brown..even noticeable in the wfo floor..I will place it in a little different spot than where the last one sat!
Sylvia
A stone does hold a lot of heat, and after baking if the stone dropped in temp, all that heat did go someplace. Isn't it the case that all that heat got absorbed by the dough? If so, isn't that actually a good thing?
Yes, I would say so..but in my case, I need more heat back in the stone for the next loaf or pizza!
Sylvia
I did believe you, Eric, but just happened to have two baguettes ready to bake today so I tired out your method and baked them on a large, heavy lipless baking sheet that I preheated for about 30 minutes. The result? Great oven spring.
Thanks for the great tip.
--Pamela
Hi Pamela, I m going to do a couple of different kinds of loaves today...I guess I'll give it a shot..you wanna hold my hand, I've got my stones in the oven..it's going to be tramatic to take them out! How did you steam your baguettes?
Sylvia
Hi Sylvia. I put a big heavy half-sheet sheet pan (not the lipped typed) on the lower middle shelf (best position for my oven but yours may differ) and a lipped baking sheet on the rack underneath it. I preheated at 500º for about 30 minutes. Meanwhile the baguettes were proofing on the couche lined with parchment. I took them out, scored them, threw them in the oven, poured about 3/4 cup hot water in the steaming pan, reduced the heat to 460º, and let them bake for about 20 minutes. I got great oven spring.
--Pamela
Hi Eric,
Why is the stone better for multiple sessions?
Thanks,
:-Paul
PS I'm not liking reading this thread as I await the delivery of a new (perhaps unnecessary) stone.
Yes, we need to hear more about how to use our stones now. My is very upset. It the first time it has ever been separated from its oven.
--Pamela
I have an aluminum sheet pan that is slightly larger than the steel nonstick ones we have had for 30 years. I bought it from King Arthur a few years ago when I started to bake bread seriously and I always use parchment with it. It has a rolled edge that makes it strong and resistant to oil canning.
I do have a roasting pan that fits between the edges and also a SS bowl that will hold a single 1.5 Lb boule. Overall trying to bake covered while using a sheet pan is less than perfect. The restricted size of the pan and then the cover is limiting. When I have a project that I want to turn out perfectly, I generally plan to make 3-4 loaves, thus justifying the use of the stone. Then I'll bake in 2-4 sessions depending on the size.
Any time I make a pair of Italian loaves I use the pan. Large billowy long loaves that take up about every square inch on the pan. I had been loading them cross wise by hand using a peel or flipper board onto the stone. Then one day I accidentally dropped one off the back of the stone onto the heating element. What a smokey mess! Ever since that day I use the pan and have never looked back.
Eric
14" round pizza pan fits the large stainless steel bowl just barely to were the lip starts..the dark pan is 15" works with room to spare and so does the 15" pizza pan. Also the LaCloche fits perfect inside the rim of the 14" pizza pan...just in case anyone broke the bottom of their Bell shaped LaCloche.
This is a thick heavier pan..just fits in my convection oven's width! 15" pan..the pizza pans I think are lighter but the handles would come in handy on this one.
Sylvia
here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4608/steam-injection-home-oven#comment-98309
The ice chips in the La Cloche REALLY work great. Steaming any other way escapes with the glass-top electric range.