June 9, 2009 - 10:02am
Question on Changing Pre-Ferment Type
I'm using a pate fermentee in a whole-wheat loaf made with 50% ww and 50% apf. I much prefer using a poolish and would like to switch over. The dough is fairly extensible now and I wouldn't want to increase it.
The pre-fermented flour percentage with the pate is 25%. Anyone have experience with this type of substitution?
Dave
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I've switched non-prefermented recipes to use a poolish. It's pretty straight forward math. Just make sure the total hydration at the end matches what you're getting now and you should be just fine.
In this case, I'd probably just jack up the water in the pate until the hydration is around 100%. Then subtract the water you added to the preferment from the final dough, and you should be good to go!
Artisan's "Direct & Indirect Methods-Bread Making" can give you a basic idea of biga and poolish, and suggests the fermentation time for different percentages of yeast and hydration used in the prefermet. It may be helpful for you.
A wealth of info ... gracias fancypants and wildeny. I've made a poolish with 20% pre-fermented flour and will try it out tomorrow.
I was hoping you would have time to answer. Your compact description of how to do the pre-ferment math makes it very clear and simple. The method of trying out the poolish with the original pre-ferment flour% is a real eye opener. I seem to have guessed ok with the 20% flour% on my poolish but didn't really learn that much. The direct comparison you recommend will now be my choice in the future. You remind me that so much can be learned right from the dough on the bench. I feel very fortunate indeed to have the help of so many generous folks at the Fresh Loaf!
Here's a couple of photos of the results ... same overall formula, first one with 25% pate fermentee and the other with 20% poolish.
I'm preparing for a presentation to a new organic restaurant in town so these loaves are worked up with all organic ingredients.What ever the local Whole Foods had available in bulk I purchased. The supplier is Central Milling.
org high protein fine whole wheat 50%
org ap flour with germ 50%
h2o 68%
org raw honey 9%
nacl 2%
inst yeast .4%
and a possibility in ounces for 2 1.5lb Boules:
16oz each flour
21.8oz water
3oz honey
.6 sea salt
.13 yeast
would do the trick for the overall formula.
The poolish loaf has more volume and seems a bit sweeter. The scoring left a lot to be desired on both samples and I'm sure affected the oven spring. Also, with the added honey I needed to back off the temperature from 450degf to 430 half way through the bake to slow down the quick browning (burning).
PATE FERMENTEE
POOLISH
I don't know if I will be baking for this restaurant or not but the setup, finding suppliers, getting a bread menu worked up with a few samples, figuring out a baking schedule and production capabilities, as well as the all important pricing is a great process and lots of fun. I'm in it for the ride.
Thanks again Dan, your willingness to share the knowledge is invaluable for those of us hitchhiking along the road to Better Bread. I hope you can continue to help out.
Will you be teaching again soon? Either at School or in seminars around the country. I for one would like to find a way to get some more hands on teaching. Please keep us informed with any news.
Dave