Hi there
I mostly use sourdough for bread making so I don't use my kitchenaid mixer much for doughs. Sometimes when i make yeast doughs like pizza or yeast breads or just tortillas I'll use the KA. My question is, when I'm kneading for the åmount of time called for in a recipe , i find the dough comes together in a clean ball at first but as the kneading progresses the ball seems to break down and dough starts sticking to the bowl. Am I overkneading and breaking the gluten strands? Should I not follow the amount of time suggested in the recipe if this happens? If so, at what point should i stop the kneading? i really hate window pane testing. I can't seem to get the hang of it.
Thanks
LL
Normal. Stop anytime - but something like 20 min. minimum with low speeds. Enjoy!
I'm working on fixing my baguettes, and using Chinese single-speed spiral mixer, takes 8 minutes to get windowpane. I found doing true autolyse (instead of fermentolyse) helps a lot to develop elasticity (the rubbery quality that keeps dough holding shape and lessen stickiness). I always get open crumb at 67% hydration, so close to fix my height issue, and definitely will make post about it soon
I know some bakers swore they never do windowpane, I found leaving windowpane is like working with a blindfold, especially with handmixing, where dough gets elastic sooner than it is to get extensible (the quality that makes dough stretchable, what windowpane is all about).
During handmixing, the dough gets elastic first, then extensible; whereas in mixer mixing, the dough get extensible first then elastic (after sets of coil folds)
Jay
Your skills are way beyond mine ... but ... I don't try to go for a window pane at (hand-)mixing/kneading time because after many S&Fs and a long ferment, the whole window pane picture changes anyway. It only matters towards the end of the process, it seems to me.
I'm not sure I'd agree that with hand mixing the dough gets elastic first. It gets stiff, but that's not necessarily the same as elastic. Or maybe it's just me ...
TomP
No prob, I believe in free speech😆
I tried to walk in the shoes of someone who haven't felt comfortable yet with mixers. I used to do handmixing for years, and later on surprised by how doing windowpane and 3 sets of coil folds really streamlined the process. I just found from my own baking experience that fear against windowpane and low hydration is too exaggerated. You may find french spoken bakeries videos on Youtube feature windowpane and coil folds, and get excellent results on baguette. My favorite is boulangerie pas a pas.
As for elasticity, I learnt from doing hundreds of handmixed extra stiff croissant dough, compared to mixer dough. If I handmix, the dough gets elastic so fast, but takes forever to reach windowpane, whereas in mixer dough, the dough is far more stretchable and relaxed after windowpane. I might be lost in translation, I hope you get the idea 😂
Jay
Well, I've only made croissants three times ever (and those long ago), and I can well believe they would be very different from my usual experience.
Every mixer is different, every flour is different. A planetary mixer like Kitchen Aid or Kenwood will always knead the dough differently than a spiral mixer. Don't go for time, go for gluten structure. Window pane is the simplest more or less reliable method to evaluate the gluten structure. The more experience you gain, the easier it will be to evaluate the gluten structure even without performing the windowpane test.
Modern white wheat flours need generally a lot of energy (e.g. kneading time) until they are overkneaded. If you want to experiment, just make a dough from 500g white flour and 300-325g water (no salt, no yeast, ...) and "test" it (how does it look, how does it feel when you pull it or try to make a window pane, etc) every 3-5min. You get a pretty good reference.
The dough temperature is also very important! A mixer warms up the dough. Temperatures above 25º-26ºC (afair) have negative impact on the gluten structure.
Hand mixed doughs generally don't get warmer during kneading.