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Comparing "Bread" and "The Rye Baker" Formulas

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Comparing "Bread" and "The Rye Baker" Formulas

I have been browsing the sourdough rye chapter in Hamelman's "Bread" and various chapters in Ginsburg's  "The Rye Baker".  One thing I noticed when I found similar formulas in both like French-style mixed rye and whole wheat is that Hamelman tends to use high gluten or bread flour for the non-rye fraction; Ginsburg tends to use AP (which is very rare anywhere in "Bread")..

One possible reason for this is that Hamelman is writing primarily for commercial bakeries, which need high volume showy loaves popular with the general public. And, they have easy access to flours with any specs they like.  "The Rye Baker" seems oriented more toward authentic regional breads from home kitchens or even traditional small town bakeries where specialty flours would be harder to find or at least be more expensive.  

I'm not complaining, but I am wondering if anyone else has noticed the difference.  And, if more skilled bakers than I see any consistent difference in the results - not better or worse, but more of a sophisticated city style vs a more rustic style.  Yeah, I know that Hamelman's bakery was in Vermont but I suspect his clientele included a lot of big city vacationers and refugees. 

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Jeffrey explains in his book that even though he writes bread flour in his formulas, it is too strong for his bread and all of them are in fact baked with all-purpose flour in his bakery.

He does it because KAF bread flour is too strong and KAF apf is just right in terms of strength. But overall, in the US, apf is not suitable for breads everywhere, in some southern states their local apf is too weak to be used in yeasted baking, it is more suitable for pie pastry and buscuits, so he errs on the side of strength. It is safer to use too strong bread flour than too weak apf.

In Canada, we don't even have anything sold as "bread flour" for retail customers, only cake and pastry flour and all-purpose flour. Our apf is so strong even too strong that it is perfectly fine for any Hamelman's recipe.

What Hamelman means by 'bread flour' is also discussed here, please read it

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49284/hamelmans-bread-book-some-questions-and-observations#comment-361808

...what he means by 'bread flour'.  For professional bakers ordering 50lb bags of flour, 'bread flour' is moderate gluten (~11.5%), or what home bakers and grocery store flour bags refer to as 'All Purpose'.  Meanwhile, in the industry 'Hi-Pro' is the term for stronger flours, or what is referred to as 'bread flour' in grocery stores.  I know this may not be news to very many, but when this was explained to me while I was at SFBI, my jaw dropped, and I'm still shaking my head at how completely confusing this naming scheme is.  'Bread flour' is a completely ambiguous term in the world of bread baking, and I think Hamelman could have done us all a favor in doing more to clear up the matter.  This, of course, really does show who the target audience is - professional bakers (which is just fine by me).

He does address the issue in a not-so-clear way on p. 146, but the term 'bread flour' is not in the glossary, or in the index (under either 'bread' or 'flour'), and his discussions of flour and its many types (spring, winter, red, white, hard, soft, patent, clear) don't clarify the term he uses throughout the book (at least not that I have found).  I think this is an oversight.

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

I have the 3rd edition, and it's not on that page. What edition are you quoting from?

mariana's picture
mariana

I do not have the first edition, but it is in my 2nd edition. Chapter 5 Levain Breads right before Production Notes for the Formulas in This Chapter

It says

Flour Choice

The recommended white flour in the formulas (and the flour of choice for all the levain builds) is winter-wheat bread flour of medium strength - 11.5-12% protein and with an ash content of about 0.5%.

Stronger flours are not necessary and with few exceptions high-gluten flours should be avoided.

In doughs that have lots of heavy grains to hold up, high gluten flour might be beneficial, but for the most part, bread work-up and flavor are better with lower-protein flour.

Spring wheat with the same protein and ash content can substitute for the winter flour. 

KAF APF has 11.7%, right in the middle of 11.5-12.0% window, and KAF bread flour has 12.7% protein - too strong. 

 

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

That is on page 142 of the 3rd edition. Your description is more useful than a page number since I was quickly able to find the sidebar.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Some of the recipes in TRB do specify first clear or high-gluten flour. Ginsberg even gives a formula for boosting the gluten content of bread and AP flours.

Hamelman seems to like the lower protein flours (11.5–12%, AP or bread) for many of the breads, but specifies high-gluten flour (13–15%) for grain-heavy or high% rye breads.

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

First clear flour has about double the fiber, and much higher ash. The high protein number of first clear is something of a red herring.

Quote from "The Rye Baker" website:

• Second, first clear is an almost perfect match for German Type 1050 flour, which shows up in a fair number of medium- and high-percentage ryes – that is, breads containing 50-90% rye. In those instances, the first clear is less a structural and more of a flavor component, moderating the pronounced spiciness of the rye with sweet wheat accents. Structurally, it’s the rye that supports those breads, so the issue of gluten formation doesn’t even enter into the equation.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I know first clear is not really high-gluten flour, but on p. 27 of TRB, Ginsberg also offers the substitution of VWG + bread or AP flour. I've done that but also blended some WW with bread flour and a smidge of VWG to approximate first clear flour.

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

You want first clear flour. You can get it quick and easy in small quantities from KAF (King Arthurs Flour) or slow and cheap in 25 to 50 lb bags. Not much in between. I went with slow and cheap. Just two people eating bread in my house 50# lasted less than a year.

I've heard that if your friendly with a commercial bakery, they will sell you some of their first clear. It is higher in fiber and protein since it is the "first pass" to get to white flour. I've used bolted flour using a metal sieve with decent results, but I'm not a huge fan of bran muffins.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Unfortunately, KAB no longer offers first clear flour. Bakers Authority does have small bags of it, though.

My problem is that I have AP, bread, whole wheat, white whole wheat, rye (whole, medium, and dark), and spelt flours. Also rye meals (fine, medium, and coarse), cracked wheat and rye, wheat and rye flakes, solod, various malts (barley, wheat, and rye) at different roast levels, and probably stuff I've forgotten.

That's why I would rather find a substitute instead of adding to this already too large inventory.

rondayvous's picture
rondayvous

Sifted wheat flour, or bolted fresh ground wheat flour would be my second choice. Make bran muffins with the discard.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I don't have as many flours as you, but I do have buckwheat groats (kasha) and chickpea flour in the freezer for use as soakers (or scalds, per TRB).  It's easy to let this get out of hand.   

caryn's picture
caryn

I just want to say that, though Hamelman defines bread flour as bread with protein between 11.5 to 12% protein, I often ignore that and bake with KA bread flour which has 12.7 % protein. It rarely has made any difference. I just made Hamelman’s Sourdough Rye With Walnuts using KA bread flour and the result was just right, I feel. 
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70118/my-bread-log