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courage bagel

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

courage bagel

Hi there baking bagel community - I live in London - and have seen the craze for Courage Bagels online in LA - as a bagel enthusiast, would love to have a crack at these bagels at home. (No travelling due to the pandemic) 

Any thoughts or tips on how to recreate this bagel? they look so different and crusty / chewy 

Looks like a sourdough bread roll boiled...so Im guess high hydration and even a autolyse method...or perhaps a worked pizza dough boiled and baked? 

 

Any thoughts? comments

all the best 

 bagel_fan_21

 

 

 

 

justkeepswimming's picture
justkeepswimming

I had not heard of them before, so I read a few articles. Sounds like they specialize in Montreal style bagels. Perhaps doing a google search would get you the recipe/technique you are hoping for. (And kudos to any eatery that was able to start up and thrive during CA severe lockdowns, quite a number have not fared nearly so well.)

Good luck! 

ifs201's picture
ifs201

Bagels are generally low hydration actually. Check out the recipe on The Perfect Loaf site. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It takes a pandemic with the loss of tastebud sensitivity to come up with a burnt bagel that tastes good.  From California?  A state with one of the highest infectious rates?  Hmm.   I like a bold bake but this is too much burnty for me.  Seeds tend to get bitter when burned.   "Courage" Antigen test.      

Ok, kick my sweet little 'ol Lady butt now.   -Mini

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

No, no - burnt seeds = bitter.

Still, perhaps better than when I tried to add some sesame seeds to a baguette and, only after I had it in the oven, did I realise that I had used the SOAP water spray bottle to wet the top of the loaf!

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

i’m obsessed with them too. been keeping an eye on their instagram and reading articles and all i’ve gathered is the following... yes, sourdough. no wood-fire, looks like a bank of old convection ovens. honey in water. though she calls her style california-montreal, there really doesn’t seem to to be any likeness to montreal style other than honey, 🤷‍♂️. i plan on going in may or june and hopefully gather some more intel. 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

yes - looks like a very robust pizza dough...high H20....possibly made with a pre ferment/starter...even a ciabatta boiled....then baked...yes they look so moorish...would love to try them...

thanks 

dustyknuckles's picture
dustyknuckles

these bagels are out of this world. Shatteringly crisp with an open crumb and chewy interior. I'm hopelessly addicted and venturing across town every other week to get my fix. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 A bagel with an open crub?   Lol.   My dictionary is laughing.

chapguy's picture
chapguy

Has anyone tried recreating this bagel? It's unlike anything I've had. BTW, it's not much like a Montreal bagel. I wouldn't try attempting it unless you've actually tasted it. It's this unique chewy hybrid of tasting like a bagel but having with an exterior that's crisp and crackly like a baguette. 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

interesting yes i live abroad so i haven't managed to try these amazing looking bagels IRL - but from a lot of photos it looks like a baguette hybrid pizza dough high h20 % with natural levain....slow cold fermentation?  but how so crispy perhaps they are just cooked quite hard in a convection oven rather than a deck oven...need to have a play at home. 

have you had any luck trying to recreate? 

 

 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

they are boiled, as are most bagels. they are high(ish) hydration, id guess 70%. they are baked on parchment lined sheet pans in an old oldschool convection oven. they are naturally leavened. don't know how long ferment. the proofed dough portions are stored in stacking pizza doughtrays. the dough portions are opened up by coating with flour, poking a hole and gently opening up the hole before dropping in the boiling water.

 

the natural fermentation, higher hydration and boiling are what I'd guess lead to the shattering delicate outer crust. 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

Excellent intel i think the trick is all in the shape and tension of the fermented dough. Thank you ! 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

or in their case the lack of shape and tension. my observation is that these dough portions had minimal preshape and tension (unlike a portion of pizza dough ball) and were more just delicate pillowy blobs like foccacia dough. then doused in flour, a hole pinched in the middle and delicately opened, then dropped in the kettle.

 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

Fantastic stuff - loving this! - it would make sense poaching gentle light fluffly clouds - need to experiment and visit courage once travel restrictions are lifted.  do you think they rest a little before hit the water? or just hole and boiled? 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

they dough blobs were definitely rested/proofed. after the hole was formed there was no/minimal rest. cant remember for sure if it was stretch hole and immediately into water, or if they stretched out the whole tray and then plopped them in all at once, but either way, no measurable rest.

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

zooming in on those photos looks like a ciabatta dough so high h2o .... any sweetness in the bagel? or just straight up crunchy goodness? 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

i'd guess 70%. maybe up to 75%. but really doubt it was in ciabatta 80% range. no perceivable sweetness or fat, but somewhere i ready they used honey in their bagels. but in bagels, the sweetener (usually malt) is in the boiling and often but not always in the dough. if in the dough, i'd guess prob not more than 2%. the most striking part was their crunch/shatter and open holes, both not typical of bagels.

and while you're in the southland, rent a car and go to folks pizza in costa mesa. probably the best pizza i've ever had, and that's coming from a pizzeria owner that makes pretty great pizza.

beccad18's picture
beccad18

Anyone make any headway on testing these?  Or find more information on their process? 

My boss is obsessed with us making these.  She prefers higher hydration breads.  I've been testing at 85% and as you can imagine, it's not going well.  I've gotten some good flavor but they can't maintain much shape so they get thin.  

I want to get back down to 75% I think.  We make our pizza dough at 70% so I may boil that tomorrow just to see what the crumb looks like. 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

i played around a few months ago. need to try again now that i have a new pizza oven and my spiral mixer is working again.. don't remember the hydration i tried, but nothing too crazy. probably low 70's. also experimented with lye in the water and honey in the water. didn't make anything fantastic, just a lot of ok. just based on my own pizza dough experiments, i doubt it's much more than +/- 70%. i really should have payed attention to any observable color in the water and the time they boiled. i need to send someone to go spy.

what pizzeria do you work for?

beccad18's picture
beccad18

Above 70% is very hard to work with but their holes are so big, so I do wonder.  What flour(s) do you think they're using?  Actually as a test this weekend, I tested boiling off some of our 70% pizza dough and I wasn't mad at it!  It was pretty decent.  We use Central Milling Artisan and Farmer's Ground Half White for our pizza.

Also what do you think they do to get that super shattery crust?  That one is also stumping me.

I work at Talula's in Asbury Park NJ.

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Maybe they baked it twice?  

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

they're just baked once in those super oldschool convection ovens you see in the photos. it's a tiny kitchen always at max capacity. its everything to do with the gentle pillowy fermentation/proofing and just the right amount of boiling to gel the starches on the exterior of the dough, but not too much the turns it into leather, that forms the shattery crust. writing this out though, makes me want to try dusting them with corn or potato starch or superfine 00 flour instead of just "regular" flour for pre-boil. maybe the shatter is accentuated by a goating of starch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in the boiling water?  Not enough to thicken it but just enough to make a super thin coating.  What else? Slightly salted water? Malted water?

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

Yes no idea how the crust is formed … I think it’s all about a nice long ferment on the dough shaped into balls - poke - then let the dough relax again - poke / make the whole and straight into just simmering water? Then into a super hot convection oven. I also think these may have a natural levain which gives it the random holes…but it’s all todo with the way it’s shaped just before boiling so you don’t ruin those beautiful air bubbles - I also think dusting with 00 flour or even olive oil before going into the oven is a good idea. 
I will have another shot at them and try and post some pictures. Can’t wait to crack the code … unfortunately I don’t have a natural starter so will try a poolish and really long bulk ferment prior to shaping. Wish me luck 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

Hi gang - so my first attempt at cracking the courage bagel formula 

I made a 

Day 1 

9pm: made a Poolish with organic bread flour and fresh yeast (tiny amount)

Let this go overnight. 

Day 2 (morning time)

Mixed flour with poolish (mix of t55 and strong white bread flour), at around 70% hydration, 2%salt, and some malt extract syrup and Tiny more amount of yeast mixed well (it was a small amount) then mixed in about 1.8% of salt. 

Bulked this at room temp and did a few coil folds (small amount of dough so it was a pain to do the folds) through the out the day then fridged the dough overnight. a good 20 hours i would say. 

Day 3 

Dough i think may have over proved? it was nice and jiggly and good ferment. So shaped into balls and clothed. Then made a hole, rested / proved again / then strecthed the hole just before boiling in malt syrup - into a as hot at it goes domestic fan oven. 

Results were great ..good flavour and chew and very light with a nice crust... but still not amazing shattering crust and crumb structure a little tight at such a high water content...perhaps over proved in the fridge? 

I'm not sure yeast poolish can get same effect as a natural levain perhaps used in the courage bagel. 

see pictures below any thoughts/comments/ideas/ get in touch! thank you. 

 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

nice! how was the crust? did you get a good shatter? fwiw, here are a couple observations of yours vs theirs...

pretty sure i've read they use honey, not malt. not sure if that's in the dough, the boil or both.

from my in-person observations, bagels went straight from proofed pillow -to- poking a hole and stretching it open -to- dropping in the kettle... no 2nd proof.

guessing time in the kettle is one of the keys to the shatter.

despite poolish instead of starter, you got nice open crumb and fermentation bubbles.

i keep meaning to test out another idea of adding some sort of starch to the water..

i need to go visit again and take way better notes and peek at they're recycling, or find a spy to watch and take notes.

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

Mine have a nice crust (blisters) but not that shattter like crust Courage seem to achieve..also my crumb seems to be quite small ''alveoli''.... I'm still convinced perhaps a natural levain would help.  

Further points: The courage bagels seem to have semolina or cornmeal dusted over them (I assume pre boiling  (you can see these flecks of grains in different photos) i will have a go at shaping into balls and then poking before boiling perhaps this gives tension when dropping into the water. 

Would be interested to try with a rice starch or potato starch in the kettle but i don't think it would be that technical on the courage invention end. Credit to them they (Courage) have really found a new process in the food world which you just dont really see often!

 

 

 

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

gonna try my hand at it again this weekend. gonna try baking them in my pizza oven. and it sounds like im gonna be in LA again oct 22. hopefully family wants to go there for 1st lunch. 'll try and peek at their flour stack and/or recycling, and better observe boil times etc.

i think i'll do 70% h20, 20% starter, same day bake.their bakery is tiny, i doubt they'd have the refrigeration to retard. maybe i'll retard some. and try a minimal boil... less than 30-60 sec max..

in reading your notes, i see you put your bulk in the fridge. putting the bulk in the fridge you usually end up with inconsistent fermentation... the outside cools off fast and goes to sleep, while the center takes forever to cool off resulting in over fermented as you stated you feared. i always bulk at room temp and then ball if pizza or put in bannetons if bread and cool everything as quickly as possible. 

PrimeRib's picture
PrimeRib

Any updates on replicating the Courage bagel at home?  

Sourdoughchef's picture
Sourdoughchef

Stiff starter, around 66% 4 hours off feed

70% hydro dough 

mix harder than you would a country dough, smooth and elastic 

 

fold twice in 30 minute intervals 

bulk for an hour

preshape 150g

final shape and proof 2-3 hours

retard overnight 

generous amount of honey for poaching

2 minutes per side

bake @ 450 high fan 

 

Boom… courage bagel

 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

Thank you for this advice i must give this a go. 

Furthermore...have you actually made this IRL? My main concern is retarding the final shape (i assume you ball the dough?) overnight - surely they would just spread into flat pizza doughs..making it impossible to shape into a bagel before boiling the next day? 

And i don't understand the preshape and then final shape...as i think courage just ball the dough, then when it comes to boiling and baking they poke a hole and make the shape at this stage. 

Thanks. 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

i haven't had any time to try it agian. but start things up again and give it a whirl. 

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Any luck at giving that a go? Or any new information you found out? I’m going to try the recipe you listed earlier, the photos look great. The airy crumb probably has to do with the natural sourdough instead of the poolish and maybe a longer ferment? You got nice color though and they still look tasty! The shattery crust may come from the honey poaching. Years ago an article came out with their home business being ranked and they mentioned the honey water. That may help give it that sheen too. Not too sure though. Would love to work there for a week and learn it all.

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

also closely observing, they're proofed in their solid pillowy balls in bins (no holes), then fully coated in some sort of flour or starch (rice flour? who knows, jury is still out), then the holes are formed right before boil in honey water, maybe a few minutes on each side?, then pulled out, rolled in toppings, then on parchment trays into the run of the mill convection ovens.

themoreyouread's picture
themoreyouread

very close to their product. I've had it twice recently.

 

now the breakdown you mention doesn't have specifics with temps, proofing times and %'s. would you mind sharing exact step by steps? I really want to use the recipe to recreate their bagels.

thanks

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

nobody here has the exact recipe and step by step,that's why we're all here. all anyone has is little bits from observation, asking questions and tidbits from articles. 

themoreyouread's picture
themoreyouread

Relating to the recipe above of the person who tried to replicate it. They did a similar bagel. I was referring to that 

Lerchdude's picture
Lerchdude

FYI found this article including a recipe for Bialys at home from the Courage owner.

https://us.inbedstore.com/blogs/journal/bialy-with-courage-bagels-arielle-skye

If I read it correctly it uses a 100% hydration.

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

well, flour by volume of horribly imprecise, but let's say 3c bread flour is 420g and 1.5c water is 360g, that comes out to be 85% hydration. 

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

This article came out last month and there are some photos of the poaching water and some of the process. The water does look a bit dark, could it only be honey? Or more??

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Well it’s been a day of deep diving and research/stalking haha. I found a photo deep on the owner’s instagram of them pouring the organic barley malt syrup into the water! This helps confirm the water, probably both honey and malt. 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

yes amazing digging! and thanks to whoever posted that eater article great read. 

I think it's more about dialling in the process from mixing to bulking / shaping and that process to the boling: i wonder if they are made on day and shapes with active starter and high hydration i can't imagine them being rested overnight at a high high hydration shaped into balls as they would just turn into flat pizzas...my guess super worked dough high gluten flour or a organic flour mixed - bulked? - shaped- rest - proved up - poked and boiled then baked? 

need to have another experiment.

 

love the research on here thank you! 

 

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

That’s a good theory. In a photo I found from the home business right before opening the shop, there’s a note written the board saying “friday, 50 degree bulk ferment from ripe starter AM”. I assume this was to sell on Saturday farmer’s markets, so maybe that helps a little with figuring out the timing process of everything?

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

I haven’t been able to find recent photos showing the flours they’re using but I found a photo taken from her home business prior to the brick and mortar with bags of King Arthur whole wheat and King Arthur sir Galahad AP

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

is anyone in the ground in LA would be serious intel to know how much space they have -  if they dont have a cool room/ walk in fridge then i think i they would be making very early on a super super active starter - 

 

there is a quote from the LA eater article: which i think personally is not true : 6 days ?? i dont think thats to throw us of the scent ;-0 

One common thread in the contemporary local bagel scene is to treat bagels more like artisanal bread. Courage’s bagels are handmade, naturally fermented, and take about six days, from start to finish, to make. 

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Yes! I’m 2 hours away  and was planning on going this week to really study. I’ve been before but wasn’t thinking about all the intel at the time. There’s a photo that shows the space a bit where behind the conv ovens there’s a whole other section with tables and a large walk in right behind it.

I just reread that article and saw the 6 day process. They must be doing a long ferment mostly in the fridge?

Here’s the photo that shows the ovens on the left and their walk in on the back right. Swipe to the second photo

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTXUm0Ks20u/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

this video kind of gives a feel of the space too

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CeZH0XTJ-tE/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

 

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Where’s an ex employee when you need one haha. They’re currently hiring a part time bagel maker. If I didn’t have pets I’d go stay at a friend’s in LA for a month for the job to learn the secrets lol

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Found this interesting blog with multiple tests. Mentions courage

 https://kitchenprojects.substack.com/p/all-about-bagels

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Just found a photo of the timer next to the kettle that reads 2 minutes so that person above is right about boiling 2 mins each side. Wonder if his instructions are also accurate. Whooo are you mystery man 

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Btw did you dust your bagels with cornmeal or flour? I know cornmeal is old school but not sure which yields the best results. Have you managed to get a pretty good recipe down that’s kind of similar?

Mmbbtt's picture
Mmbbtt (not verified)

Well well well just got confirmation that they do a 2-3 retard in the fridge which I already expected

nicolette's picture
nicolette

I just stumbled across this thread, as somewhat of a newbie sourdough baker and LA native that moved to the southeast 2 years ago. Lately I've found myself really missing Courage (I used to live down the street). After reading through the thread I thought I'd give it a shot. Here's what I did:

Day 1:

Mix dough, 75% hydration. I mixed it on low-medium speed in a stand-mixer with dough attachment about 6-7 minutes.

Let sit about 12-hrs at room temperature, did a few stretch and folds whenever I thought about it throughout the day.

Threw the dough in the fridge overnight.

 

Day 2:

Pulled the dough out of the fridge, shaped into balls weighing approx 170 grams each.

Placed dough balls on sheet tray lined with parchment, sprinkled with cornmeal.

Threw sheet tray back in fridge.

 

Day 3:

Removed dough balls from fridge (they'd been in there at least 36 hrs by this point), let sit at room temp until they were nice and puffy. Approx 2-hrs.

Sprinkled dough with a little arrowroot powder.

Poked a hole in each ball with the bottom of a wooden spoon to mimic the shape of a bagel. My dough felt a little slack at this point but I charged ahead.

Brought pot of water to a boil, added lots of malt syrup.

Boiled bagels 2-mins/side and removed.

Topped a few with sesame, everything and left one plain.

Put back on cornmeal lined sheet tray, into a 500 degree preheated oven. Once in the oven, I reduced temp to 450 degrees. Baked approx 20 minutes.

 

Interesting results. I didn't like the long-boil, I think it made for a little too much of a gelatinous chew imo. But I also could have done something wrong. And mind probably could have stood maybe 3-5 minutes longer in the oven. I was overly excited and pulled them maybe a tad earlier than I should have.

Forgot to take a picture of the interior (d'oh), but it was much more similar to what you'd expect from a regular bagel than what courage achieves. Mine did not have that airy, open crumb. Oh well. They were still delicious. I was super excited about the exterior - especially on the plain. I did get somewhat of a shatter..could it have been the arrowroot? Next time I experiment, I'll have to boil a bagel without the arrowroot to see. Can't wait to give it another go - thinking about trying a ciabatta base, or even pan de Cristal if I dare mess with even higher hydration.

Bagels proofing

Bagels proofing

Baked bagels

baked bagels

plain bagels

BigBakingEnergy's picture
BigBakingEnergy

Okay, this is my third or fourth attempt at courage bagels. I live in LA and go there frequently. I have tried everything and something is always amiss. But I am finally at the point where I would like to share my status and get some feedback. 

Here is where I am at:

- 67% Hydration

- Stiff Starter (think 2:3 ratio)

- 12-to 15 hour bulk ferment at around 65 Degrees with a stretch and fold every 2-3 hours

- Portion to 100 - 150 gram dough balls (still experimenting with portion)

- 12 to 15 hour cold ferment overnight

- Proof in warmish (90 degree) oven for 2-3 hours (dough balls should NOT be flat if they are then you went too high on hydration)

- Okay, this is the part where I need some feedback and advice. I boiled in a mix of barley malt and honey for about 60-90 seconds each side. I tossed in sesame and maldon and popped them into the oven at 450 Convection. They took FOREVER to get any color (more than 30 minutes)  (kinda like baking a neapolitan pie at 500 versus 800). They came out pretty good overall great texture, good flavor, and very airy.  But you know what's missing? The SHATTERING CRUMB of courage!! HELP!

I am thinking that I will repeat almost the same dough recipe with a drop more honey in the dough and a slightly longer proofing time (3-4 hours). I will bake at 500 convect and add a small amount of steam. The hope is that the combo of higher heat and steam will help get the shattering crust and quick color.

Let me know your thoughts! Pictures of exterior and interior below.

Notes

- High hydration dough is more likely to lead to flagels due to the workflow of making bagels. This is one of the reasons you should use a stiff starter

DylanW's picture
DylanW

Those look pretty good! What % honey are you doing in the dough? What about the % in the water? I wonder if adjusting those percentages will help with the crumb. 

BigBakingEnergy's picture
BigBakingEnergy

About 2% in the dough along. The water is a bit more complicated as the solution gets more concentrated as it boils... I really eye ball that based on color. I've seen courage do the same in the morning...

DylanW's picture
DylanW

Make sense for the water. Have you messed around with the fermentation hours? Longer/shorter bulk vs fridge vs overall. 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

these look awesome and what an attempt - there must be something courage have clocked or has clicked for them - if you do live nearby or close to courage : you should watch there workflow or ask yourself these questions:
-do they have fridges to hold enough bagel dough or do they just have a bulk dough overnight then shape - prove - poke the hole and boil in the solution. from photos and research the bagel dough at courage pre boil look like light fluffy clouds of focaccia dough almost and yes i know what you mean if you use to much water they just go flat - as there is not enough strength in the dough especially when poking the holes before boiling. 

My observations of your bagels they need a longer prove at room temp? 

-Have you considered using rice flour to dust them with ? which could create a starchy water or even adding some starch to the water.

-i imagine at courage they absolutely crank there ovens to full and i also think with a commerical conevction oven loaded with bagels (think big volume) they probably create their own micro steam and bake causing that shattering effect on the crust. 

-lastly i dont think its too complicated as the courage owners are self taught maybe they had some help but i think its a combo of playing with some different flours - and using a really strong starter/levain - are the bagels sweet or salty? maybe there is a lot of honey and or malt in the water mixed with a sticky starch helps give the shattering crust 

-my takeaway from a far is you have to examine the work flow and the set up - rather then the result because as all of these small businesses they will have limitations which will have helped the results ie make the dough get some strength into the mix then ball them up and perhaps they are balled up like pizzas really tightly packed into those white pizza trays so they don't collapse - then once with the right time they are removed carefully and dusted in more starch a quick poke and tension to cause them to tense up before boiling then baked really hard.   

well done and looking forward to more results 
i need to start again and get a starter going 
greetings from London the UK 

bob_flet's picture
bob_flet

have a watch of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHxhk6SUljo&ab_channel=TODAYFood 

the bagels are like big pillowy puffs and really gently poked and holed before what seems and you can see a serious serious rapid boil - the ovens in the shop are completey burnt as in they are so hot and a lot of steam marks - 

the other thing they do is flip the bagel and i imagine really cook da f@ck out of them. 

they are also definitely dusted in a cornmeal or something starchy pre boil and perhaps even afterwards ? 

have you tried a pan cristal recipe and dialled back the h20? 

the other thing is they must be using a very high gluten flour that is mixed really well i imagine this would be done in a machine which would really build strength into the dough.


 

Lebowski's picture
Lebowski

thanks for the helpful comments and experiments. Today I got a pretty satisfying approximation of Courage bagels:

  1. Central Milling High Mountain (high-gluten) flour
  2. 66% hydration
  3. 20% levain (100% hydration)
  4. 1.5% salt
  5. autolyse 30 min
  6. two folds at 45-minute intervals
  7. retard overnight three hours after mixing
  8. divide into 150g balls and proof two hour
  9. boil: 2200g water, 3g lye, 10g diastatic malt powder., I found 60 seconds per side gave good results after experimenting with 30 and 120 seconds per side. 
  10. bake at 500 for 20 minutes, flipping halfway through 

Lebowski's picture
Lebowski

Top photo above shows results in baking at 550F (left) and 500 F (right).  Bottom photo show crumb at different boiling times.

Forgot to mention that I coated the shaped balls in rice flour prior to proofing on a parchment-lined baking sheet. Poked a hole just prior to boiling. I don’t have a convection oven. 

Like Courage bagels, the crust was crisp, the crumb open, and the chew had a robust pull. 

Moe C's picture
Moe C

Good for you! Did you add anything to the water bath? Do you think the rumour that the original bagel is a six-day project has no merit?

Lebowski's picture
Lebowski

thank you, yes, the boiling water (2200g) incudes 3g lye and 10g diastatic malt powder. I had read about  another well-regarded California bagel-maker using lye in the boil, I found that it provides crispness to the crust. I had run out of malt syrup but learned from King Arthur Baking that malt powder could work as a substitute. Based on my experience yesterday the powder worked well enough and I think it’s probably significantly less expensive than the syrup.

 

Lebowski's picture
Lebowski

The rumored six-day process may be true but seems unlikely given the space that would be required. Few breads require such a long process , maybe panettone? The process I used was about 18 hours and required just storing the dough in bulk, which fit easily into a medium-sized mixing bowl for a yield of one dozen bagels. 

Lebowski's picture
Lebowski

Today I followed the recipe and method from yesterday with a few modifications:

  1. Added 7g diastatic malt powder to the dough to encourage better rise and browning
  2. Gave the dough balls more tension when shaping, then rolled in rice flour as previously, but added a light dusting of rice flour prior to poking to reduce potential stickiness.
  3. Avoided stretching the dough balls when poking to maintain a more rounded final result.
  4. Placed all 12 boiled bagels on a single 2/3 baking sheet. I will do six to a sheet next time because 12 lengthened the baking time to 37 minutes at 500F (yesterday about 21 minutes) and having fewer bagels to a sheet will allow fuller browning of the crust.

The final result was a more rounded bagel than yesterday, 1.75 in x 4.25 in (44 mm x 108 mm), similar to Courage. Baked weight ~140g. Next time I will:

  1. Add brown sugar to the boil (along with the lye and diastatic malt powder) to more fully mimic malt syrup.
  2. Give the bagels more room on the sheet
  3. Bake at 550 for a shorter period to more quickly get the dark brown crust that Courage aims for.

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

results are looking great.

a couple thoughts... 

non-diastatic malt is what would typically be used in bagels for both the dough and the boil. no problem using diastatic malt in the dough, but should be less than .5% of total flour otherwise you could end up with an ezymatic bread soup if doing a long fermentation. and if your flour is already malted, you probably want very little or none added.

as for the boil water, again, non diastatic is what would typically be used. doubt the presence of the enzyme makes any difference in this case, but not sure if the composition other than the live enzyme is the same or not.

there are mentions of honey in courage research. not sure if that's in the dough, the water or both. if you ever experiment with hone in the water, be cautioned that honey is acidic and when mixed with lye may cause a violent reaction and will probably in the end neutralize the lye, so if you experiment with honey in the boil, best to leave out the lye.

as for someone else asking about 6 day fermentation they read in the eatr article... if there's any truth that, its filled with hyperbole. it's a tiny space with a small walkin. maybe there's somehow six days from beginning to end... maybe they build up the levain in a convoluted multi day buildup so they can exaggerate for effect and throw people off. also, while the eatr article that mentioned that seemed well written, some articles about them seem seem written by ai or at best a human that hasn't been there or eaten their bagels and are garbage for accurate info. anyway... i give close to zero credibility for it being a 6 day process in any standard baking terms. there no benefit to that long a fermentation and they simply do not have the space for 6 days of dough in that small walkin, be it bulk in tubs or especially not in the proofing pizza dough trays they use.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

if you ever experiment with hone in the water, be cautioned that honey is acidic and when mixed with lye may cause a violent reaction and will probably in the end neutralize the lye, so if you experiment with honey in the boil, best to leave out the lye.

It's great to be reminded of this.  I wonder, though - most doughs are acidic to some degree, at least naturally leavened ones.  But I've never heard of a sourdough bagel causing problems at the boil stage.  Why would this be?

deuxcv's picture
deuxcv

concentration and availability would be the main difference. dough, while acidic,the acidity is part of the dough and doesn't dissolve into the solution, so the reaction is slow and minimal.  honey fully dissolves quickly so the reaction is faster and more expressive. 

furthermore the lye gels the surface starch protecting the rest of the dough and gives the distinctive shine and accelerated browning. 

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Thanks!