The Fresh Loaf

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Bread is too light and fluffy

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Bread is too light and fluffy

Hello from a newbie to The Fresh Loaf and apologies if this is not posted in the correct place.

I am not new to bread making but decided to see if I could make my life easier by purchasing a bread maker.  We bought an entry level Panasonic and I have to say I am amazed at the way it effortlessly produces quite a reasonable loaf.  That said, I do like the firmness of my hand made bread and the machine output is too light and fluffy for my taste.

I am a non-technical baker but Googled around and one suggestion I found was reducing the water; this I tried but got a light and fluffy loaf that was decidedly lop-sided.  Some more Googling and I found something on the Panasonic site that said a lop-sided loaf was often caused by too little water!  So ... I am now seeking other ways to make the bread a little less fluffy.

I am using good quality flour (50% wholemeal and 50% strong white), 360 grammes of water, 1 teaspoon of yeast, 1 teaspoon of sugar, 1 tablespoon of oil, 1.5 teaspoons of salt.  I use a wholemeal rapid programme that takes 3 hours in total.  I got this recipe from Doves who make the yeast I use (albeit that I have increased the salt slightly) and they specified this programme.

I guess I could add less yeast but wonder if anyone can offer any other suggestions that might achieved the desired result.

Many thanks.   

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

We really need more information to help. If you have images, please post them.

What is the total weight of your white flour and also whole wheat flour?

Can you provide the web link or the source of the bread you are working with?

We need more info.

Danny

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Thanks for the post Danny - it would have been sensible if I had posted the amount of flour.  Apologies.  Anyway, I am using 250 grammes each of strong white and wholemeal.  I am not sure if the makes are relevant but they are quality bread-making flours that I have used for years. The recipe is at https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/recipes/bread-machine-wholemeal-loaf but is (quantity-wise) much the same as I was using for handmade bread except that I used 325 grammes / ml of water.

Wasn't sure what you meant by "Can you provide the web link or the source of the bread you are working with?"

Herewith photo of the inside of second loaf.

Thanks again

Uplander

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks for the extra info.
Your loaf doesn’t look much different from the pictured loaf in the recipe. See theirs below.

The percentage of salt in the recipe looks a little low low. 1 teaspoon of table salt is 5.7 grams. Typically ~2% salt is used, which would come to 10 grams. I see that you raised the salt to 1.5 teaspoons (1.7%). Good idea, you could go slightly less than 2 teaspoons for additional flavor. But that had no affect on the rise of your bread and it’s crumb structure.

Your bread looks pretty good to me for a 50% whole wheat.

Danny

By the way  - I have no experience with bread machines, maybe others who do can shed more light.

 

 

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Thanks for that Danny, I'll see if anybody else can offer some thoughts.  Like I mentioned, there's nothing wrong with the bread as such, it's just that I would just like it to be a bit more solid.  To this end I have decided that with the next loaf I will increase the flour and water by 10% but leave the sugar and yeast the same as original and see what happens!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

“ it's just that I would just like it to be a bit more solid
Please describe the (more solid) a little more. I need more to understand.

By “less fluffy” do you mean more dense? More substance? More chew?

When you wrote “a bit more solid”, a portion of rye flour comes to mind as an easy fix. You could also forget the rye and increase the percentage of whole wheat.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

try leaving out the oil.  Or cut it back.  Sounds like the machine is doing a good job at gluten development which is giving lots of volume, maybe too much if the crumb tends to shread even while cutting carefully.

Reducing the amount of yeast by just a smidgeon might be worth a try. Remenber to keep notes and try only one change at a time.

Uplander's picture
Uplander

I only saw "leaving out oil" before.  I really appreciate people posting so a quick addition from me.  I agree on the one change at a time and notes - I am quite fanatical in keeping a record whether hand or machine.  I had wondered about easing back on the yeast ever so slightly but (my latest thinking) I think firstly I will try adding a little spelt.  I have some spelt flour so it will be interesting to see what happens, whether it just reduces the rise a little.  Reducing the oil or yeast remain options.  I am very used to tweaking my non-machine bread and seeing what happens, so will apply the same to the Panasonic.  Anyway, thanks again for the post.

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Thanks for the recent posts, not sure on the protocols regarding reply or comment!  Anyway thanks both.

More solid ... my wife and I are sitting here trying to find the right words to expand on this.  Given that this (by chance really) is much the same recipe that I would use for hand-made bread, the machine loaf is much taller and therefore less dense.  I imagine most would say it is a good texture.  However, when I make bread by hand there is more substance and more chewing is required.

The current machine offering is what I would describe as the typical texture of an uncut shop loaf in a good bakers (in the UK) - fluffy and lacking substance.  When you cut it there is a slight tendency to tear if you are not careful.  I am sure for many this would be a really good loaf.  Given the minimal effort I am impressed but I would like something more ... errr, solid!  Please excuse the lack of artisan understanding - I am something of an amateur baker.

The addition of Rye is one I would like to try.  I could also add a small extra amount of wholemeal but not increase the white.  I hadn't thought of that.

Leaving out the oil is an interesting thought - I have always added some form of fat to my bread and wonder if it might be a bit dry without it.

Anyway, I shall experiment in due course and will post an update.

   

 

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Fluffy wheat bread is actually what many people want to achieve! I've never had to give advice on how to make a loaf more dense.

It does look as if the machine is getting a pretty good gluten development. One thing you can try is shifting the protein content down a bit. It looks like you are using a strong bread flour as part of your ingredients. Replace half or all of that with regular AP flour. That might do the trick. But,honestly, your loaf looks great as it is.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

My first thought was, "put a pile of books on it." :)  Sorry.  But I knew there would be more to it and honestly that would be too easy.  I predict the spelt, could make the crumb more delicate.  Love the natural sweet flavour of spelt. Spelt takes a little longer to hydrate and that could weigh things down given the short working time.  Mmmm, could be interesting.

Another thought. What happens when the bread is placed into the refrigerator?  Try a few slices overnight and check on them the following day.  

Uplander's picture
Uplander

I always think that having started a thread, it is good to keep up the flow.  However, the notifications do not seem to be coming through to me - presumably a setting I have omitted.  Anyway, thanks for the last two posts.

clazar123 - I understand what you are saying about "light and fluffy" and on those criteria the machine is working well.  My desire to change things a little is down to my personal preference - my liking is for a bit more body / chewiness in a loaf.  Being new to bread machines I was not sure which direction to head in; that said, I have a list of things to try and I will add your idea of reducing the protein content to that list.

mini oven - was wondering whether the pile of books was during baking or afterwards?!  Anyway, spelt is on the list to try so I will do an update when that has happened.  It's a bit ironic but we actually try to not eat too much wheat bread (I do a nice but solid buckwheat and quinoa loaf - see below) so it will be a few days until I post an update.

Regarding the light and fluffy loaf being in the fridge, we have decided that it is much better a day or so later - easier to cut and nicer in the mouth.  But of course it is still has that lightness.

One thing I will try is changing the settings for small / medium / large loaves.  Depending on which you choose the ingredients increase and that makes sense but the overall programme time is the same which seems odd.  I cannot figure out what changes within the programme depending on which loaf you select.  If the overall time was longer the bigger the loaf selected, well that would make sense to me but that isn't the case.  So, I am going to use the ingredients for the medium loaf on the small setting and see what happens.  Might be one for the birds!

Thanks again.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Can you remove the bread from the Bread Machine once the proof is finished, then bake it in a oven?

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Uplander's picture
Uplander

... but I bought the machine because I am getting lazy in my senior years!

🥱

PhilDough's picture
PhilDough

I have a family member that wants Only light and fluffy bread. ;), but not me. Well, I'm probably not adding anything here but:

  • less water might help.
  • oil - either less or none
  • sugar - unless it is for taste, it is not necessary.
  • You could eliminate one of the proof/rises in the bread program by stopping the program after the second rise (before it knocks it down) and go to the Bake only program and set the temp and time.

Good luck!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Or switching some of the wheat out for quinoa or barley flour would give a denser loaf. Go with that first. Recommended is not to exceed 30% of the total flour weight so that might be a good place to start

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Thanks for the recent posts.  I have been experimenting and will update this now and then just in case anyone down the line finds it useful.  So far I have tried reducing the water (no effect on the output) and changing the loaf size (this you select on the machine before starting) and again with no effect.

So today's effort was to add 50g of organic wholemeal spelt - meaning I used 250g strong white, 250g of wholemeal bread flour plus the spelt (total 550g).  I also increased the water from 360g to 396g i.e. flour and water up by 10%.  I thought that this, by increasing the raio of flour to yeast, would achieve something.  In fact this has had no effect at least judging by appearance - we haven't eaten any yet but it is the same size and still light in texture.

I intend to try adding 100g of spelt next time then will experiment with something like quinoa or barley flour.

I am not keen on eliminating one of the proof/rises or any other maual intervention because this is all about lazy bread!

I am intrigued as to the effect of not adding oil, I thought that was good for the texture?  Also, is it not the case that the quick dried yeast needs sugar to activate same?

Thanks again.

 

Uplander's picture
Uplander

So ... it would seem we are in for the long haul.

I increased the flour to 600 grammes (250 wholemeal, 250 strong white, 100 spelt) but there was no real difference - maybe it was a tad more dense but still too light for our taste.  This amount of flour is the maximum that the machine will cope with so my next experiment was inevitably going to be reducing the yeast and sugar in ratio to the 600 grammes of flour.

Meanwhile, and to answer my own question above about leaving out sugar, the following is courtesy of Loren McCune on Quora:

Yeast eat sugars; however, flour is primarily starch. And, starch is made of sugars all linked together. The flour alone is sufficient food for yeast.  When instant yeast meets water and flour, the yeasts wake up hungry. Enzymes in the flour go to work unlinking the sugars and the yeast are lined up behind them for breakfast. Everybody is happy and added sugar is not necessary.

Most of you already knew that but I didn't.  So I then reduced the yeast by 25% and the sugar by 50% (I used 3/4 teaspoon and 1/2 teaspoon respectively).  This produced a loaf that is more dense but maybe we are veering towards it getting a little doughy.  Ho hum.  I am going to leave the yeast at 3/4 teaspoon but carry on reducing the sugar and we will see what happens.

 

lpacker's picture
lpacker

I think I know exactly what you are talking about and I too would like to get a chewier crumb from my bread machine. Have you had any success with your experiments?

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Hi.  Well reasonable success I guess.  I had made bread by hand for years and was used to a pleasantly solid load - not a brick at all but more firm and less fluffy than shop bread.  I was blown away by the ease of the breadmaker but it did seem a tad too light.

Since then I have experimented with the ingredients, the order of using them in the programme and indeed by using different programmes.  When I used the full length wholemeal programme the bread was lighter so that didn't work. 

Anyway, we have settled on a formula that we like, making a loaf that is still lighter than was the case when making by hand but firm enough to be enjoyable.  Being lazy, I cannot imagine ever not using the machine so I suppose a degree of compromise is inevitable but that said, we enjoy what we regard as our standard recipe.

I use the quick wholemeal programme (3 hours) and I add the ingredients in the order that Panasonic states (yeast in first).  I use 3/4 teaspoon of dried yeast, then add the flour well-mixed (250 grammes of strong white and 350 grammes of strong wholemeal), followed by 450 grammes of water, then 1 tablespoon olive oil and 1 3/4 teaspoons of salt.  Sometimes I replace part of the wholemeal wheat with spelt (100 grammes).  I do not use any sugar at all.

There's no doubt that varying the brand of flour makes quite a difference so we have our favourites.  That said, with all that has been going on we have sometimes had to accept what we can get.

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

Zaphod's picture
Zaphod

I too prefer a denser texture, and I hope you find the solution that works for me to be good for you too.

My machine is the same, a Panasonic 2501, and I have found that the quick programme, number 2, to work for all sorts of flours and wholemeal combinations. Surprises me, that.

My ingredients are…

600g flour (60/40; 70/30; white, multigrain, whatever)
1½ tsp active dried yeast 
1½ tsp salt.  
1 tbsp sugar (though I read here that isn't necessary, I shall try it). 
381g water

Programme 2, dark crust. It is set to take 2 hours. With 1h 20 to go it knocks back the dough until 1h 19. As soon as it has done that I open it up and remove the paddle - there now will be just a round hole in the base.

love to hear how you get on.

 

 

 

Uplander's picture
Uplander

That seems very low Zaphod - 63.5%.  My rule of thumb is 67% for white through to 77% for wholemeal.  That said, I am happy to go with whatever works but this seems surprisingly low. 

I have never used Programme 2 - will give it a try but reckon I will use a little more water.

Zaphod's picture
Zaphod

Hello, Uplander,

 

I don't have a lot of baking experience and therefore no 'art' to call on, so when I started I hid behind science. I didn't like the standard breads produced in my machine, so was happy when I discovered a 'magic ratio' and could apply it to making my bread.

 

I'm ashamed to admit I used jeweller's scales to measure the ingredients to the nearest fraction of a gramme at first.

 

The ratio is, in relation to the amount of flour - water 63%, yeast 1% and salt 2%, and didn't work very well on the normal programme in the Panasonic, but did on the 'Rapid' setting.

 

As I gained experience I found that, for 600g of flour the 381g water approximated to a certain vessel in our kitchen filled to the brim, the others to standard measuring spoons.

 

I read your response just as I was about to start a batch, so I checked the volumes I used against their weights, and found that they were all more or less spot on, with the water being exactly right, so I'm confident that I had not misled you.

 

The loaves turned out well.

 

Please do tell me how you get on with the extra water, and I'd be interested in how much you actually use - I'd like to mirror your experiment to see what I get.

 

Kind regards, 

 

Pete

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Hi Pete and thanks for the post.

Since starting this thread we have made many changes to what we do, but this is the recipe we are presently using (ingredients in order they are added to the machine):

 
  • 1 teaspoon yeast (Dove's "Quick")
  •  
  • 250g Wholemeal bread flour (Waitrose Duchy organic)
  •  
  • 250g White bread flour (Waitrose Duchy organic)
  •  
  • 365ml water @ 38º (73%)
  •  
  • 1 teaspoon salt
  •  
  • 1 teaspoon sugar
  •  
  • 1 tablespoon oil
  •  Programme 6 on “L” (i.e. middle setting for size)
 I am very accurate with measuring - I use measuring spoons and digital scales.  The above makes an acceptably firm loaf; however, if we use this flour but on setting 5 then the loaf is too light.  On the other hand, other flours are better on programme 5. All this said, we have probably changed since buying the bread maker.  We love the ease of the machine and have come to enjoy the bread it produces albeit that it is a bit lighter than when we were making it by hand. Following your post I thought that the best thing to do was simply use the same recipe (above) but using programme 2 - a programme we have hitherto not used.  It produced a slightly denser loaf but it was also quite doughy - more than usable but not what we would choose. I am not sure what we will do next but I remain always surprised how all these modest changes can make a radically different loaf. Cheers for now Simon Sorry the text is all bunched up - the formatting on this forum defeats me!
Zaphod's picture
Zaphod

Thanks, Simon.

I'll use your ingredient quantities next time i make a batch, one loaf on Prog 2, t'other on 6. It'll be interesting to see how they come out.

Cheers

Pete

Zaphod's picture
Zaphod

Hi Simon,

I tried your recipe, using exactly the same ingredients, on Programme 2, and felt the same as you about the result.

 

If you are so inclined, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the recipe I use, but on Prog 2.

 

Kind regards, 

 

Peter

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Hi Peter

I shall give that a go on my next session!

Cheers

Simon

Uplander's picture
Uplander

Hi Peter Well... I did this exactly as per your recipe. I even removed the paddle as you instructed (your instructions were spot on) - something I had not done previously. It did trouble me a little using that much sugar but I wanted to follow yours to the letter and perhaps owing to the lack of time it needs this amount? Anyway, the result is certainly compact and very dark! We have yet to try it but I will do a further post after tasting. I did notice that it has no fat but assume this is correct? Regards Simon

Zaphod's picture
Zaphod

It doesn't look very well at all, does it, Simon? I've never seen a collapsed end like that, and it doesn’t look at all homogenous with that void in the crust.

Correct about the fat, it doesn't seem to make a difference for me. And the sugar, I read somewhere that it chivvies the yeast up a bit.

I'm going quiet on this for a while, going touring in our Motorhome for a month, but I'll pick it up when I return, if you are interested. I'll be sure to take some pix.

Regards,

Peter

 

Uplander's picture
Uplander

I hope that by the time you read this Peter you will have enjoyed a great month in your motor home.

Meanwhile, I thought I would do a quick post regarding the loaf I made using your recipe. Despite the shape it was certainly edible although not to my taste.  It was well-baked (having used the maximum setting for browning), quite dense and very dry. To eat it seemed like a 100% wholemeal loaf even though it was in fact 50/50.

I watched an interesting video by "ChainBaker" on Utube regarding sugar.  Not sure of the protocols here regarding the posting of links but it will come up under "How Does Sugar Affect Bread Dough? The Effects of Sugar Explained". He does an experiment that seems to prove you get a better ferment without sugar. Certainly my latest recipe using Menu 5 (5 hour) rises well and has no sugar at all, albeit it is not a dense bread.

Well bye for now.

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

Zaphod's picture
Zaphod

Still touring, Simon, eating French bread every day.

it is interesting that the ‘art' side of bread making should show, even with something as mechanical as a bread machine. Apart from our tastes, we seem to be producing different loaves.

would be fun to put our two machines and ingredients side by side and have a bake off!

I’ll try your Menu 5 when I get home, though it won't serve me all that well as with Two I can get two loaves made in that 5 hours.

take care

Peter