The Fresh Loaf

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Walnut cranberry bread surprises.

nathan_strahl@yahoo.com's picture
nathan_strahl@y...

Walnut cranberry bread surprises.

Like all dedicated followers of this forum, I want to make the best bread possible, but also want to maximize my effort and make it with the least effort and time.  So my next bread choice is 50/50 all purpose flower/wheat flour for that dark look with cranberries and walnuts.

The number of posted recipes on the internet might approach infinity, so I reviewed one after another and came away as uncertain as to what to do as before I started, maybe even more uncertain.  Recipes ranged from the traditional mix, autolyze, two rises, frequent gentle foldings, the last rise in the frig overnight, into the preheated Dutch Oven, 30 minutes top on, 15 minutes top off.   

But then I came across recipes for cranberry walnut loaves that shocked me.  No yeast.  Mix ingredients gently, Add the honey or other sweeteners, baking soda, citrus peel, put into baking basket, bake at 350 uncovered for 30 minutes, and presto you are done.

Are these breads equal in quality and tasting? Is the "long" method superior in quality and taste over the rapid method?  

Your thoughts

 

 

 

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Some people love the taste you get from "quick" breads. The soda imparts its own taste. You may like it. I prefer yeast raised breads but baking what you enjoy is most important. 

Econprof's picture
Econprof

The quick bread version gives you a cake (like banana  bread or pumpkin bread). The “long” versions give you a chewy, crusty, and not-as-sweet bread. I like both, but for different uses. For instance, you could make a turkey sandwich with the regular bread, but not the quick bread (it would be too sweet and would fall apart).

Econprof's picture
Econprof

I’m assuming that the “quick loaf” referenced in the post is something like https://www.bakedbyanintrovert.com/cranberry-walnut-bread/

Around here, that would be by far the most common type of cranberry-walnut quick bread. I’m sure it’s possible to produce an Irish-soda-bread style loaf with those inclusions, but I don’t think that’s what the original post is referencing.

Hermit's picture
Hermit

They are not the same in taste. Yeast breads produce lactic acid and ethanol which has the classic bakery/pizzeria aroma. The crumb has a larger pockets and a stretchy texture.

Quickbreads (made with baking soda) produce CO2 gas and the soda itself has a chalky aroma. The crumb has finer air bubbles, and is typically a bit more spongy, like zucchini bread or carrot cake.

Not all quickbreads are sweet. Some are savory: examples are Cornbread which can be crumbly or tough, and Scones where the dough is not sweetened but they can have toppings like fruits, nuts, icing, etc.

About your original choice: both the whole flour and the nuts and fruit all diminish the stretchiness and hence the rise and spring of your loaf. I would start off 75/25 AP/whole and go light with the "chunky" additives. This way you get a nice healthy loaf no matter what and you can always try more later. Also try rye flour instead of whole wheat for a darker color.

happycat's picture
happycat

I'm not picking on ya, honest. Just found myself wanting to followup on some points.

They are not the same in taste. Yeast breads produce lactic acid and ethanol which has the classic bakery/pizzeria aroma. The crumb has a larger pockets and a stretchy texture.

Yeast produce CO2 and ethanol. They don't produce lactic acid. They have somewhat recently been re-engineered to produce lactic acid in place of ethanol for industrial purposes unrelated to baking. Gluten can result in larger air pockets but our rye bakes sure show a dense, fine crumb :)

Quickbreads (made with baking soda) produce CO2 gas and the soda itself has a chalky aroma. The crumb has finer air bubbles, and is typically a bit more spongy, like zucchini bread or carrot cake.

The fineness of the crumb may be related to another cake method characteristic: higher fat content, esp. oils, combined with a lack of kneading to produce the tender crumb.

Not all quickbreads are sweet. Some are savory: examples are Cornbread which can be crumbly or tough, and Scones where the dough is not sweetened but they can have toppings like fruits, nuts, icing, etc.

Real Irish soda bread! (not whatever is made over here... I mean the stuff I devoured in Limerick, Ireland). It would be crusty and you could probably put savoury toppings on it. As for scones... again, not sure about American ones but my British style scones def have sugar in them. With the butter content and flakiness, I think they may qualify as pastry.

About your original choice: both the whole flour and the nuts and fruit all diminish the stretchiness and hence the rise and spring of your loaf. I would start off 75/25 AP/whole and go light with the "chunky" additives. This way you get a nice healthy loaf no matter what and you can always try more later. Also try rye flour instead of whole wheat for a darker color.

I'm not sure if you're concerned about mixing inclusions into the dough. I fold them in at the end during shaping (i.e. spread the dough out, sprinkle with inclusions, fold or shape and then proof. I recently doubled the fruit in a kugelhof with no impact on the super puffy rise. 

Hermit's picture
Hermit

Commercial yeast fungus and starter culture is always found along with lactobacillus bacteria though. Anything you buy at the grocery store that's marketed as "yeast" will contain comparable amounts of it and will produce lactic acid when fed.

I'm not sure if you're concerned about mixing inclusions into the dough. I fold them in at the end during shaping (i.e. spread the dough out, sprinkle with inclusions, fold or shape and then proof. I recently doubled the fruit in a kugelhof with no impact on the super puffy rise.

 It's just that beginners can easily use too much -- especially if they are comparing to certain quickbreads (like Christmas fruit and nut breads or muffins) which can be mixed wetter and carry more inclusions without compromising on the rise.

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, Nathan, they are equal in quality and taste. Both soda breads and yeasted breads are real breads that taste like bread. Provided you have a good recipe, of course. The ones that you quoted are probably not (equal in quality and taste). 

It is not the amount of time or the number of steps in the recipe that makes great bread. Both breads that you mentioned are leavened, both have plenty of lactic acid, both have a blend of white and whole grain flour. 

Abe's picture
Abe

Apart from small quantities naturally found in the flour and yeast there is no lactic acid component like there is in sourdough. 

In yeasted breads, acids come in small doses from naturally occurring bacteria present in flour and commercial yeast. (Fresh yeast generally has more bacterial inhabitants than dried, and whole grain flours more than refined.) In sourdough breads, acid-producing bacteria are supplied in much greater numbers from starter.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, Abe. Research shows that there is plenty of lactic acid even in plain white yeasted bread. Up to ten times more than acetic acid, for example.

In fact, it is the most predominant fermentation acid in yeasted bread and its major flavor contributor: 

50-100mg of lactic acid per lb of white bread

10-50mg of acetic acid per lb of white bread

traces of butyric acid, propionic acid, pyruvic acid, etc. 

A lot depends on the method of course, and the temperature of the fermentation. Lactic acid fermentation peaks at around 32-35C as in bread machines or industrial bread fermentation. 

Acidity per se (acidic taste) depends mostly on acetic acid. There is 2 times more acetic acid in the 'sur poolish' crumb as in the straight dough crumb and  the 'levain' crumb has 20 times as much. 

Source: p.102-103 in Pyler (2009)Baking science and Technology, 4th ed. Vol II, section 6.G3.f Flavor development. 

Abe's picture
Abe

50-100mg is 0.05g - 0.1g per 1lb that isn't very much at all. Something doesn't sound right. 

And 10-50g of acetic acid per 1lb makes acetic acid 200 - 500x more than lactic acid and would make the bread very acidic. 

And multiply for a levain! 

Doesn't sound right. I bet if I put that much acid into a dough it'll taste stronger than a sourdough. And if this happens in a yeasted bread then how is it any different to a sourdough? Yet, by taste and the make-up alone we know it is. 

mariana's picture
mariana

I corrected the typo Abe. Thank you for catching it.  It was mg.

There is not much free water in dough, all things considered and some of organic acids are lost in baking through evaporation. The measurements above are for the bread crumb, how much is in the bread crumb. 

1lb of bread dough has about 100g of free water. 100mg of lactic acid in 100g of water makes a 0.1% lactic acid solution. It is not low, considering it is not a sourdough, contains no buttermilk or sour whey in the formula, etc. Just from the impurities in yeast and from native lactic bacteria in white flour they produce that much lactic acid in white bread in the space of 4-6 hours. 

Some sourdoughs are totally non-acidic to taste, even though they are certified sourdoughs with proper pH and billions of lactic bacteria per gram of flour in the starter, others are super sour no matter how low % sourdough you inoculate them with. A lot of it has to do with the specific  make up of individual starters. 

Abe's picture
Abe

Yes, I appreciate there is some acidity going on, be it from the yeast and/or flour (even honey which is sweet is acidic) but not on the same scale as sourdough. One also has to consider the TTA for there to be a discernible tang taste. TTA is a whole other level of understanding. One which i've discussed but only scratched the surface. 

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/ph/

  • Baker’s yeast bread 5.3-5.8
  • Sourdough bread 3.8-4.6

These are your typical acidity levels. But bear in mind the pH scale is not linear. The difference of 1 is actually 10x! 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Back in 2019, mwilson posted a cool diagram of yeast metabolism. It shows a lot of outputs: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61674/back-uni-first-lecture

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I think you are thinking..."What on earth is she thinking??" But it is true. What YOU believe to be good bread is probably different from what I think is good bread. "Good","superior" are value words that have a lot of different meanings and esp. between different people.

There are a gazillion recipes out there for every kind of bread that can be conceived. The trick is to find a recipe that has the ingredients you are aiming for, a technique that seems interesting to you or do-able for your situation and a description that sounds like what you want (chewy,light,sour, crunchy,etc).

This site is a great place to find recipes and the baker that can help you with the recipe. If you are looking for a cranberry walnut whole wheat loaf, just enter "cranberry,walnut" in the search box. A lot of really good recipes pop.

As for different kinds of breads-there is a whole world of bread out there-commercially-yeasted breads,naturally-yeasted breads,(sourdough,levitra madre,natrual levain), yeast fruit water bread, salt rising bread (that's an eyebrow raiser), chemically leavened breads (baking soda& acid, baking powder, hartshorn) and even unleavened breads- flatbreads of all kinds. And all of these can come in sweet,lean,enriched or savory varieties.

So dive in somewhere and try one.