The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Hello from Bookish

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Hello from Bookish

Hi! I'm Bookish and I'm an amateur baker. I just bought a Zojirushi Virtuoso Plus because my cat killed my beloved 31-year-old DAK bread machine by shoving it off its shelf. I'm on a low sodium diet for medical reasons so I'm always looking for low sodium recipes. (Not NO salt; just a lot less salt.) I have arthritis, hence the need for a machine to do the hard part for me, but I do make breads that don't need much kneading.

Yesterday I made the 12-grain bread from the Virtuoso Plus recipe book, reducing the salt and the yeast just a little bit, and it came out almost perfect. Next time I'll reduce the salt and yeast further and see how it goes.

I'm a big fan of Peter Reinhart, Kenji Lopez-Alt, and especially Donald (Don) Gazzaniga whose low sodium cookbooks have been very helpful.

I look forward to participating here in the forums.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Hi Bookish! Welcome to the forum. This is a great community.

How low are you able to reduce the salt and still get good results?

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Thanks for the welcome, Gary. As far as the salt question goes, I don't know yet. For years, I used Don Gazzaniga's 12-grain, no-salt recipe in my old DAK machine, but it's more than a 2-lb recipe so it's too big for my new Zojirushi. Instead of cutting Don's recipe down, I'll try to adapt the Zoji cookbook recipes by cutting the salt and the yeast by equal amounts.

I'm not a math person, but I suppose I should look into using baker's percentages. :)

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Baker's % make life easier for sure.

If you send me your old recipe I'll convert it for you.

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Oh, thank you! Should I just post it here? I'm new here so I'm not sure how things work.

happycat's picture
happycat

Spreadsheets (Google sheets for any device; Numbers for any Apple device) are easy to use, free to get, and make life so easy. A few moments learning how to do it will let you convert and adjust any recipe easily.

I recently converted some recipes using a spreadsheet. Just put the ingredients in one column, the amounts in the next column, and use a formula to automatically change the amounts as desired.

I used a spreadsheet to convert volumetric recipes (cups, tbps) to weight (grams), and then to convert to bakers % which also make it easy to see hydration.

The amazing thing about a recipe converted to weight is it is easy to convert to any size, and easy to make: you can simply put a bowl on a scale and add stuff right out of the packages while watching the numbers on the scale. No cups, spoons, conversions. Less mess and more consistent.

It's really nothing about math-- the spreadsheet does all of the calculations for you. If you set things up with simple formulas, you can scale up and down in size easily by changing one number such as "final dough weight" or scale (i.e. 1 for basic, 2 for double, .5 for half, etc.) and have the spreadsheet convert it

 

Bookish's picture
Bookish

I'll have to investigate spread sheets. I already use a scale for baking, and I have converted some of my favorite recipes to weight. It really is easier that way.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Others will likely enjoy seeing it. I'll make and share a simple sheet.

Bookish's picture
Bookish

 

Thanks, Gary. It's a tasty recipe but I'm afraid it would overflow my Zoji. Here are the ingredients, slightly adapted from this book by Don Gazzaniga:

 

https://www.amazon.com/No-Salt-Lowest-Sodium-Baking-  Book/dp/0312335245/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2EJWDXR5RS3E3&keywords=gazzaniga+low+sodium&qid=1643392667&s=books&sprefix=gazzaniga+low+sodium%2Cstripbooks%2C46&sr=1-4

 

1 ½ c plus 2 T orange juice with calcium, room temp (370 mg)

 

1 T apple cider vinegar (.15 ml)

 

3 T unsweetened applesauce, room temp (.097 mg)

 

2 T olive oil (30 ml)

 

2 c unbleached AP flour (260 g)

 

2 c whole wheat (260 g) (sometimes I use 1 c white whole wheat & 1 c bread flour)

 

1 level T vital wheat gluten (8.5 g)

 

¾ c 10-grain cereal (150 g)

 

½ c brown sugar, packed (100 g)

 

2 ½ t bread machine yeast (7.5 g)

 

[optional: ¾ c chopped walnuts, added to the machine at the "add stuff" beep]

 

 

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GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

You can find a simple sheet here. You'll want to make a copy. I'll paste it below.

I made several changes to your weights when they seemed wrong to me. I used online sources for what, I think are the correct weights. 

I usually use 120 grams for 1 cup of flour but you used 130 and I left it because maybe those are packed cups? If you are working by weight better to stay with what you use. 

I kept your original recipe units. Then I mostly kept your weights but changed a few. If I got it wrong, just change them. 

I saw that the total flour was 520 grams in the original so I got baker's percent by dividing each weight by 520. 

The last column "adjusted grams" multiplies the baker's % by the weight in cell E14 (the blue one in bold type). Adjust that number and all the others should follow.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

 original adjusted
 recipegramsbakers percentgrams
orange juice2T31.46.0%24.2
apple cider vinegar1T28.85.5%22.2
unsweetened applesauce3T46.89.0%36.0
olive oil2T26.65.1%20.5
AP flour2c26050.0%200.0
WW flour2c26050.0%200.0
vital wheat gluten1T8.51.6%6.5
10-grain cereal3/4 c15028.8%115.4
brown sugar1/2 c10019.2%76.9
yeast2.5 t7.51.4%5.8
     
Total flour4c520100.0%400.0
Dough weight 919.6 707.4
Bookish's picture
Bookish

Thanks, that's wonderful! I'm not at all surprised that some of my weights may have been wrong. I won't need to bake again until next week, but I will report back. Thanks again.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

double check it for sure. 

I love baking tiny experimental loaves for learning how things work.

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Thanks, that's so very helpful. I'll double check the flour amounts. I don't remember where I came up with the weight for that.

The orange juice amount is wrong, though. It's actually 1.5 cups plus 2 T, which comes out to about 385 ml when I Google it.

I should print a reliable conversion chart for common ingredients and keep it handy. Between that and the Google sheets, I should be all set for adjusting recipe size. I really appreciate your help.

 

 

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Ah, I missed that. You are correct. I have corrected the sheet.

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Thanks again for your help. I'm looking forward to trying the adjusted recipe in the bread machine.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

I also got the weight of the vinegar wrong. I have corrected in the sheet.

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Okay, thank you!

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Okay, thank you!

naturaleigh's picture
naturaleigh

Welcome!  Looking forward to your posts!

I think there is likely a sweet spot or absolute low that one could go before losing out too much on flavor and possible implications on gluten strength...?  More scientific minds here will have better input on that.  Good luck and happy baking!

Bookish's picture
Bookish

Thanks for the welcome, naturaleigh. Yes, I'm sure there are more scientific minds than mine! If I learn anything helpful, I'll share it.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Welcome to TFL. I think you'll enjoy being here.

I have done a little digging on reducing salt in bread. Here are a couple of posts that have some info on the effects of salt in bread:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66566/effect-salt-bread-baking

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69134/please-help-need-gluten-free-low-or-no-sodium-bread-machine-recipe

I don't have a bread machine, but I think some of this information may still apply. I have been replacing some of the table salt in recipes with NoSalt potassium chloride. In small amounts I do not notice the bitterness of the NoSalt.