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A couple of rye mashes

albacore's picture
albacore

A couple of rye mashes

Two rye mashes for upcoming Russian bread bakes. Both done together in the sous-vide bath.

First is a mash for Riga bread with homemade rye malt and T997 light rye; 2.5hrs at 66C:

 

 

Second made with Russian solod and home ground rye with the course bran sifted off; 5 hrs at 66C:

 

 

Store in the fridge. Breads to be made later in the week.

 

Lance

 

Comments

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Taste a tiny bit before using - the white rye with active malt is so sweet, it's crazy! And the whole grain one should be a little sweet too, but the difference should be clear. I was so surprised how sweet the scald for Riga bread become.

Nice way to do this, with a sous vide.

albacore's picture
albacore

What are you suggesting, Ilya? Not to use as much as the recipe specifies?

 

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

No not at all! Just taste it for fun.

 

 

 

albacore's picture
albacore

Ah, that's good - you had me worried Ilya! Yes I will taste; I've tasted the solod mash before and that was sweet enough.

Lance

happycat's picture
happycat

Looking forward to this! I'm taking a rye break next week but I'm sure I'll learn some tips from you for my next round!

Incidentally I have been thinking to push more bran into scalds and mashes and leave more flour for final dough. I know some recipes do the opposite but I'd rather break the bran down.

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks David. I'm no rye expert, but I'll give them my best shot.

I have made the Borodino before and I was pleased with the result so I'm sticking with the same recipe.

Lance

rgreenberg2000's picture
rgreenberg2000

I've never made any Russian rye breads, which may explain why this is the first I've ever heard to doing a mash for bread.  I'm quite familiar with the concept from my all grain brewing days, though I was mashing grains that were only crushed otherwise I'd have a "stuck mash" where the tun would not drain.  I can only imagine the flavors that are contributed from this process.  Before I read Ilya's comment, my first thought was, wow, this is going to bring some sweetness from the converted starches.....sounds like that is the case (though perhaps not all the way through to the final bread....)

I will do some more reading on this process for bread for sure!  I look forward to updates on this project, Lance, and I appreciate you posting as it has my interest piqued! :)

Rich

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks Rich; Riga is on the menu for tomorrow - fingers crossed!

 

Lance

albacore's picture
albacore

I made the Riga bread the other day, following this recipe. Most of the classic Russian recipes for Riga or Borodinsky seem fairly similar, with a levain, mash, sponge and main dough.

I reduced the caraway seeds down to 1g, as I didn't want them to overpower.

Of course, the flours malts and sugars used will vary in type and quantity, depending on the bread being made and the specific recipe. The levain needs 4 hours at 30C, so I set up a timer to switch the proofing box on at 5am.

Doing fermentations at 30C in the Lancashire winter when baking home sized quantities needs everything to be pre-warmed. Here's my overnight mise en place in the proofing box:

 

 

Making the sponge in the mixer:

 

 

The preshaped loaves - 1 x 700g, 2 x 430g. I think I should have shaped the small loaves shorter and fatter:

I've found to get the best finish on these loaves, you need to brush them with a BF/water paste before baking; once baked brush them with a cooked potato starch (corn starch works too) paste and put back in the oven for 5 minutes. Then (optionally) brush again with the starch paste once out of the oven.

Here are the baked loaves:

 

The crumb was dense, but very tasty; a good rye flavour, aromatic, mild sour, pleasant chew, no mush(!):

 

Lance

 

 

 

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Good looking Riga bread Lance.  So many things to prep when you’re doing everything from scratch, it is very very impressive and well done.  Hope you’re enjoying the fruits of your labors.

Benny

happycat's picture
happycat

Nice work with a great shiny crust and it held together nicely in a loaf.

Do you taste the mash? (I am guessing a sweetness and softer/rounder flavours)

Did you use the paddle then hook on the mixer? 

Having done scalded and non-scalded ryes, I can't see myself not scalding/mashing at least a component of rye breads to soften and sweeten

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Nice looking bake Lance!  

Is there an upper limit on how long you cook the mash?  Is there a point where it starts to be detrimental?  In his book, Reinhart specifically calls out 3 hours (stating that all the starches are converted by that point), but I've seen much longer times posted here.  Just wondering if you've found a difference with longer times.

albacore's picture
albacore

@happycat: yes, quite an intense sweetness, not cloying though. Borodino mash is less sweet, because there is no enzyme active malt present, just the flour enzymes, and some bitterness from the roasted malt counteracting sweetness.

@HeiHei29er: I just followed the recipe timings. Riga was 2.5hrs at 63-65C; Borodino 5-6hrs.

What is interesting is that the mashes are cooled right after the mash period, but German mashes (Aromastück) are heated up to 85C to inactivate the enzymes.

 

Lance

albacore's picture
albacore

And then I used the dark mash to make Borodinsky bread. I used this recipe, which I've used once before. I was planning to make a free form loaf, but the dough seemed a bit soft, so I went for a tin loaf.

 

 

No crumb shot, I'm afraid, as this was baked for a present. I did make a smaller loaf, but didn't take any pictures of it. We had it with some smoked salmon. I thought the flavour of the bread might overpower the salmon, but it was acually a good match.

The crumb was quite open - a lot more so than the Riga bread. If I make the Riga again, I will definitely heat up the mash to 85C at the end to inactivate the amylases, given that so much enzyme active malt is added. I don't know why this isn't part of the published Russian recipes.

 

Lance