The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Bittman's Bread

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Bittman's Bread

Bittman claims to have an easy technique for getting good oven spring and open crumb with 100% whole wheat dough.  The formulas are no-knead with folds and a starter (he doesn't like to call it sourdough, I think because the whole wheat starter isn't as sour/acid tasting as that for white flour).  

An unusual aspect of his method is:

  • Proofing in the pot/dutch oven that you'll bake in
  • Proofing 10-20 minutes only
  • Starting the bake in a cold oven; Bittman repeatedly writes "That's not a typo"

Another quirk is that the instructions for making a starter begin with pate fermantee from a white flour dough.  Before the starter is ready to use, it will have had 3 feedings with 100% whole wheat flour, so it won't be more that 25% white flour for the first loaf and less and less as you go on.  

The book includes recipes/directions for a lot of things I would like to make, include 100% WW empanadas and berry tortes, pizza and rolls, rye bread and baguettes.  He doesn't like rye starters, preferring the WW starter and rye flour in the dough, with two levels of rye. 

When I get some practice I'll post results.  Please let me know what you think of the book, especially after trying it out.   

Petek's picture
Petek

I ordered this book last night. Expect to receive it tomorrow (11/28). Will post again after trying it out.

Petek's picture
Petek

Received Bittman Bread and began making the initial loaf. The purpose of the first loaf is to create a starter for subsequent loaves and to practice Bittman's techniques. All of my steps so far may be found in the Look Inside feature in the preceding Amazon link. I've attached photos of the finished loaf. The "cold oven start" method worked fine. Luckily, I already owned the pot that Bittman recommends (a Lodge 2-quart dutch oven). I used a portion of the dough to create a whole wheat starter to use in subsequent recipes. Will post again after making the whole wheat loaf.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Wow, Petek, that looks great.  My starter based on the pate fermentee pluse whole wheat flour looks OK, but nowhere near as bubbly as in photos.  I am hoping that's because the photos were taken after the starter warmed up for a while.  

I mixed Bittman's "jumpstarter" ie levain last night; it looks OK if not hugely bubbly.  I'll mix the dough in a liitle while at the 9 hr mark.  

I used a good stainless steel 2 qt saucepan for the beginner bread; my cast iron dutch oven is way too big.  I hope to get a better result this time.

happycat's picture
happycat

So if proofing in a cold dutch oven, then proofing continues in the cold oven heating it all up.

And if proofing in the container, no worry about deflating during transfer I guess.

Looking forward to your experience.

wildcat's picture
wildcat

I have been proofing in a 2 quart Lodge Dutch oven and starting the bake in a cold oven for years (10+). The cold start I got from somewhere in the sourdough internet community. I evolved on my own to the 2 quart oven because the 4 and 5 quart ovens were heavy and difficult for me to maneuver safely when hot. 

This method has worked reliably for me. I differ from him in that I use an inverted saucier pan for a lid, which gives the bread more space to rise and allows me to bake larger loaves than he does.

naturaleigh's picture
naturaleigh

Hi Wildcat!  I've been intrigued about the cold start method for a while now, and now this post has sort of got me curious again.  Sorry if this seems like a silly question, but I'm assuming you are proofing at room temp in the DO rather than in a fridge?  I'm trying to figure out (if I go forward with experimenting from my 'standard' recipe) how to tweak times on method if the final proof is all at room temp since my current method involves an overnight cold retard in the fridge with bake in the early AM straight from the fridge into a preheated DO at high temp. 

Also, are the sides of your loaves impacted in any way as far as shape since they a proofing inside the DO, presumably taking on the shape of the DO (which is by this method a substitute for a banneton...kind of)?

I know there are several links for cold start baking on this site but it is sometimes easier to just get a quick answer this way rather than sifting through scores of links to find what you need.  Thanks in advance!

wildcat's picture
wildcat

I do proof at room temperature, mainly because I prefer the milder flavor profile. I did try an overnight retard in the frig, but I let the dough come to room temperature before putting it in the oven, mainly because I didn't want to change the bake time. I don't see any reason why you couldn't go straight into the oven from the frig but you'd need to play around with the bake time.

The lower part of my bread reached the sides of the Dutch oven, but the sides still curved as they rose from the oven spring, if that makes sense. They looked like normal batards, i.e. the bread wasn't shaped like the Dutch oven.  Bittman has photos in his book.

wildcat's picture
wildcat

Whoops, boules not batards 

Petek's picture
Petek

@wildcat,

Do you line the DO with parchment paper (ala Bittman)? I sometimes go "commando" using a preheated DO and never had a release problem. I'm thinking that the parchment might be needed to prevent sticking if you don't preheat.

wildcat's picture
wildcat

No, I don't use parchment paper. I make a lubricant by adding some liquid lecithan to canola oil. Nothing sticks to that.

suave's picture
suave

I've read and used Bittman's books.  They are not for purists, but he's got his spit together.

Kuiper11's picture
Kuiper11

I'm pretty new to bread baking and have had most success with King Arthur's Vermont Sourdough recipe. I've bought a few books including Tartine Bread, Flour Salt Water Yeast and now the Bittman book. With one of the Bittman recipes I've noticed the parchment sticks to the finished loaf and is really hard to peel out of there. It gets really flaky.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Hi, I had a terrible time with parchment sticking that coincided with using new parchment rounds from King Arthur. I called them and they said to spray with veg oil one side of the parchment, the side that contacts the bread. That worked. But seemed wrong, I never had to do it before. They said there was no change to their parchment.  

So I looked at my combi pan. The sheen was gone. I seasoned it and it's better now. But I'm still playing it cautiously because the sticking was so awful. 

Be especially careful with higher hydration loaves. 

jo_en's picture
jo_en

You could try cutting slits in the corners of your paper so that  the paper will slide under in the places where it needs to conform to the shape you want.  So for a round loaf cut slits from the circumference inward radially but leave the inner circle intact. For rectangular  shapes, cut at the corners, but leave the inner rectangular base intact.

Petek's picture
Petek

Try this to prevent parchment from sticking to your loaf: Crumple the paper, unfold it, then place in the baking container. I learned this technique on the Fresh loaf. It helps the parchment to conform to the shape of the baking vessel.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That sounds like a great tip, sticking or not.  I get lines in the loaves where the parchment does not conform nicely to the pot.  

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I mede the starter and baked my first Bittman bread; the starter and the bread used atta flour (whole wheat)  from an Indian grocery.  I have used atta more or less successfully with yeasted 100% whole wheat breads at 85 or 95% hydration with a poolish and overnight retarded bulk fermentation.

I never got the Bittman dough to stiffen up; it went into the pot to proof/bake like a thick batter.  Even so, I got a slightly more open crumb and about the same volume as I had with commercial yeast and conventional technique.   And it smelled great while baking.

Next time I'll do more folds after adding the salt and during each of the 4 folding intervals.   I'm tempted to try 10 minutes of Rubaud's method for mixing high hydration doughs in order to promote the gluten development.  And maybe the starter will be more effective after a its feeding a few more days in the fridge.  

Petek's picture
Petek

After having made two of the recipes from Bittman Bread and browsing through the book, here are my impressions:

Bittman Bread is an excellent choice for someone who wishes to begin making whole grain loaves. The instructions are clear and the photos are helpful. The resulting loaves are airy and light (although not as much as loaves made from refined flours). A new baker might have to buy a pot suitable to make some of these loaves.

An experienced whole grain baker will not find much new here. The "stretch-and-fold" technique (not really "no-knead") is a useful tool. The resulting loaves, however, are no better than those achieved from using the techniques given in such books as The Tassajara Bread Book, The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book or Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Bittman is not a purist about the definition of a sourdough starter (he uses commercial yeast to make one). He also discourages use of iodized salt and glass bread pans, without supplying a rationale*. That being said, the result is what matters. Bittman's breads are first rate.

*Correction: Bittman states that iodized salt can taste metallic.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Petek,  I am on the fence on this one.  I have purchased a number of books, and checked others out from the library, and a number of times felt I did not gain much. I am a big fan of Bread, I have Peter Reinhart's books on Whole Grain and Bread Revolution, and have read the rest of his books, own the Flour Lab, and Vanessa Kimbell's Sourdough School, and have read  FWSY ( not a favorite of mine ), and some others, and lately I am considering Bitman or Laurel Kitchen.  I bake with 100% home milled wheat and always use a starter, so the Bitman approach  ( I read the introduction on the Google Books link above) really sounded good, but am concerned that as you say, that i won't find much new.  If it was up to you, would you go with Laurel's or Bittman or pass on both?   Thanks

Petek's picture
Petek

I might not be the best person to advise you which book to buy. I own all the books mentioned above, plus 70 or so other bread books ("never met a bread book I didn't like"). Most of Laurel's recipes use commercial yeast. The book has a section about creating and using a starter called "desem," but I've never used it. On the other hand, Laurel has many more whole grain recipes than Bittman. I've made many of them and they are rock-solid. Laurel is slightly out-of-date, but you can use the techniques in Reinhart's Whole Grains to modernize her recipes. If you know how to convert commercial yeast recipes to starter, then I would go with Laurel. Otherwise, I'd pass on Bittman. Reinhart has everything you need to make delicious whole grain breads. HTH.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Thanks,  I might pass on both.  The intro to the Bittman book sounded great, I especially liked his observation that once you are used to whole wheat, breads baked with regular flour taste empty  ( I have described it as tasting like cotton candy ).  I generally find that I don't need more than one or two recipes, i am usually looking for info on process, etc. 

alcophile's picture
alcophile

+1 on Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads. I have this and Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book, but I didn't have a lot of success with whole grains until I got WGB.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I've got these books:

  • CIA Baking and Pastry textbook
  • Bread, by Hamelman
  • The Bread Baker's Apprentice, by Reinhart

I have been baking whole wheat bread with increasing %'s of whole wheat flour using commercial yeast formulas adapted from these as well as miscellaneous websites and videos.and a KAF whole grain baking class.   Here's my list Bread Formulas.   None of these books go up to 100% WW, so those adaptations are from websites on atta flour and the Bread Code.

I have been using commercial yeast for a long time; sourdough as described in the books above just seemed too complicated, too many more variables to get right.  I had been willing to sacrifice flavor and open crumb for simplicity (the excellent as the enemy of the good).  

I read Bittman's recent article and listened to his podcast; his book was focused on 100% WW with a simplified sourdough process, so what the hell.  And he does include pizza dough and empanadas, inter alia.

After working with the Bittman process a couple of times and going back to the other books, I figured out that Bittman;s jumpstarter is the levain build.  He describes his starter as liquid, but my version with 100% hydration and thirsty atta flour seems a little stiffer.  I think Reinhart talks about liquid, regular, and stiff starters; Bittman's seems closest to the regular one.

I am autolysing my 2nd Bittman bread now, trying to add less water than the first time to produce a dough rather than a batter.  And I'll do two of the 4 folds and put the dough in the fridge overnight.   

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Thanks for the link, it looks like you did a lot of work to create that.  I don't vary the recipe very much, since i am normally just going with a lean bread, but it is interesting to see the variation in hydration between recipes.  

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

ut I didn't have a lot of success with whole grains until I got WGB.

When I first got WGB,  I used it quite a bit, now I find I very rarely use his epoxy method.  In part, because I am almost exclusively using a starter, and while he includes that in his book, it is not really focused on it,  IMO.  

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Bittman is one of the big names, so I'll add him to my watch list for discounted Kindle editions.

I'm a WW fan, so I'll probably get this if the Kindle edition goes on sale for $4 or less.

--

Just FYI, Chad Robertson's WW book "Tartine Book No. 3", in Kindle format, is currently $3.99, which is a great deal.

JimT47's picture
JimT47

I'm new here, and new to WW baking and starter vs yeast.  Just baked my first Bittman WW loaf.  Good* flavor, tight crumb, crispy crust, but…small.  The dough and then the finished bread did not fill the Lodge DO…see photos below.   I’m in NH at 1200’ elevation, if that matters.  I kept my starter, jumpstarter and dough in the oven at 80° (proofing mode) between each step. Any thoughts? 

 

Jim

* Flavor good, but strong.  Used KAF WW.  Thoughts on adding molasses or honey?

 

 

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I got results similar to yours for 3 tries at Bittman Bread.  I watched some non-Bittman videos (mainly The Bread Code YouTube Channel); my Bittman starter looked nothing like the videos - I had a few bubbles here and there but no doubling.

So I tossed all my starter into the discard container and started from scratch using information from Bread and Basil Sourdough Starter.  The new one looks a lot better.  I'll try Bittman again after 7-14 days of feeding the new starter.

Bread & Basil Sourdough had a recipe for lemon poppy-seed muffins with sourdough discard, which came out pretty well (I am off sugar for health reasons, so they came out like lemon-scented whole wheat muffins, which was fine).  

coneileipi's picture
coneileipi

I have just eaten my third loaf of Bittman's 100% whole wheat bread, and I am enthusiastic. I began by first baking the beginner loaf and making the starter. I was looking for a way to make a simple 100% whole wheat sourdough loaf that is not a brick, and this works. I am using Bob's Red Mill whole wheat flour. My next iteration will be Kerri's Sandwich Loaf on page 117. This loaf is made in a loaf pan and is baked at 350 degrees starting in a cold oven. I hope this works because I have a friend who wants to try this bread, but her oven will not heat above 400 degrees (electronic malfunction and no repairs during the pandemic).

I solved my sticking parchment problem by crumpling and greasing the paper before lining the Dutch oven. Thanks for the suggestions!

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I tossed my Bittman started into the discard container and started a new onw using a more traditional method and wild yeast.  It seemed to be a lot more active.

I tried another Bittman Bread  with it (using the superstarter method) and still no luck.  Tasty but small and closed crumb.  It has been chilly here, maybe that plus the retarded fermentation overnight in the fridge between the 2nd and 3rd folds never allowed the yeast to get active,   

I'll give Bittman one more try with the whole process at room temp to see if that makes a difference.  

coneileipi's picture
coneileipi

I am glad that you started this thread, and sorry that it is not working out for you. I just followed the instructions in Bittman's Bread, making the starter loaf with King Arthur all-purpose flour and SAF Red yeast. For subsequent loaves I followed Bittman's instructions using Bob's Red Mill whole wheat flour. I usually make whole grain rye with rye starter, but I didn't want to take a chance on the rye weighing down the wheat. I love my rye, but I was looking for a lighter wheat loaf, and I got that with the Bittman bread.

BTW I have made two batches of the Crumby cookies at the end of the book, one as written and the other adapted for vegans. I thought that both versions were delicious, but neither version went over well with family, even the vegan. 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Maybe I was too credulous about the refrigerate anytime, or I didn't give things enough time to warm up. I have a hunch that I am over- or under-hydrating because this flour is very thirsty.    I am going to try again in a couple of days with no refrigeration, and the levain build overnight at room temp.  Anmd maybe I'll do some serious kneading when I add the salt. 

caryn's picture
caryn

I read with interest your using an overnight rise with the Bittman Bread formula because my main-stay method over many years has been to proof my sourdough breads in a bread basket (banneton) overnight for baking the next morning. I normally will bake them cold into a preheated oven and cast iron pot. These almost always work well with lots of oven spring. So I didn’t know what would happen if one modified his formula to do the same. You may have saved me the trouble of trying that experiment, but maybe it would be useful to see what would happen if you let the dough come to room temperature in the morning before baking. I might try this is no one else has.

As an experienced sourdough bread baker, I have mixed feelings about the book. I don’t own it. I borrowed it from the library because I was intrigued with the 100% whole wheat sourdough approach.  I did not create a starter from scratch, using some of my starter that I keep in the freezer and “feeding” it with whole wheat flour only. My first two loaves came out a little denser than I am used to, but maybe it was just due to the 100% whole grain aspect. Their sizes seemed a bit silly to me: a loaf weighing about 600 grams. Also, my dough seemed thicker than I thought it should be and next time I may add additional water. The cornmeal rye bread was really delicious and will double that formula next time.

I made the sandwich loaf. The formula was just the basic bread formula scaled up to 50% more and baked in a loaf pan at a lower temperature. At first I was ready to toss this loaf because it looked rather dense and not that interesting, but upon tasting it, especially toasted, I came around and feel that maybe the Bittman Bread technique could be tweaked to produce some very decent 100% whole grain breads.

As far as purchasing this book, I am not sure the book is worth the price for about 24 recipes. (The book is about 240 pages.) I may summarize the recipes for myself and experiment more with this technique.

 

vermagic's picture
vermagic

I didn't see anything about refrigeration during the actual process (unless you are opting to slow it down for schedule reasons - which they talk about in the book).  Perhaps try not refrigerating anything - make the Jumpstarter the evening before just leave it near a heater overnight.. and then wait 12 hours to make the actual dough.  Then it's just wait for an hour, add salt, and do the 4 folds 30 min apart - leave it all at room temp.  Worked like a charm for me.  I think your cold situation may be impacting things.  The only thing you refrigerate is the starter.  I like the fact that you can use the starter right out of the fridge to make the jumpstarter.  The 12 hour sit allows it to warm up enough to do it's thing.

vermagic's picture
vermagic

I made the starter loaf, then my first "real" loaf a few days later.  It came out perfectly.  The bread is moist, airy and has a good crust and crumb.  Truly unlike any other whole wheat bread I've had.  The flavor is perfect.  Looking forward to trying some local fresher flours.  I used KABC WW flour and it worked great.  Sprinkled some flor da sal from Portugal on the top for a bit of crunchy salt.  You can eat this bread with butter or cheese and it's a meal.  I even ate a plain slice - it's that good.  I'm close to putting my 2nd loaf in the oven - with nigella, sesame and sunflower seeds + some Montreal Steak Seasoning which is basically a slaty dried garlic and pepper spice mix.  I think "everything" spice would work well in this bread.  The rise comes from a good starter plus a series of folding (easy) then rest etc.  Can't wait to experiment with more seeds/grains and later try some other recipes like pizza, cookies etc.. that are in the book.  The book is well laid out with easy to follow instructions and tips.

JimT47's picture
JimT47

As you can see, my results are still (see post 12/10) not like the plump loaves the Bittman book shows.  This latest attempt was barely 2 1/2" high, and really dense crumb.  I have to say my dough, after folds and all, is still very wet, amorphous, no real skin.  Not batter but not "dough" as I have always known it, somewhere in between.

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I'm getting the same result as JimT47. Virtually no oven spring, despite using Bittman's superstarter - feedingf the starter a few hours before mixing the levain ("jumpstarter") so that the starter is doubled. when you mix it in.  Keeping everything out of the fridge and adding more dough strength at each stage (eg, kneading after the autolyse), and of course switching from atta to King Arthur WW helped a very little.  

I am really dubious of the short proof and cold start in the oven but Bittman is absolutely sure of it - don't even consider changing it, he writes.  And others here say it works for them.  

The only things left to change for me are putting the levain and dough in the oven on the proofer setting (73 F) rather than the countertop (high 60's F) and preheating the oven before baking.  If that doesn't work, I'll try more conventional methods.  And if that doesn't work, it's back to yeast (although I will miss the discard pancakes, muffins, and roti).  

caryn's picture
caryn

My advice to you is that you shouldn’t give up. If you have watched The Bread Code on YouTube, he has so many tips that are useful. I agree with you that Bittman’s “simplistic “ technique is not fail-safe. There are many variables that impact sourdough baking including ambient temperature. If your room is only 60 °F, then the starter and the dough that you mix will not work as well. Natural yeast (sourdough or levain) development is a function of time and temperature, a concept that Bittman doesn’t even address. It might be helpful to keep your starter and then dough in a warmer spot and make sure that the dough tests done (using the finger test) before baking. Also, since you own  Hamellman’ “Bread,” you might want to try his whole wheat levain which is 50% whole wheat. I have made that many times using the overnight retardation. I have often made that bread with the addition of toasted walnuts (about 180g) and it is really nice.

Also, I have seen other recipes that bake starting in a cold oven. I would guess that that should not be a problem; the problem might be that the dough was under-proofed due to the cool temp of your room.

I think the most important factor for sourdough baking is that you have a good starter. So, I encourage you to keep trying. I also will keep trying to tweak Bittman’s technique to see if it is really worthwhile. 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Thanks for the suggestions.  Room temp here in usually sunny San Diego has been ~68-69℉;  I am going to try to use the oven proofer setting (~73℉) instead of the countertop to see if that encourages the wild yeasts enough.  

Here is a yeasted bread - 60% atta flour (!), 20% rye, and 20% high gluten flour Atta + Rye + High Gluten that came out pretty well.  I want to get to 100% whole grain for health reasons and

  • Hamelman says that sourdough is better for rye (which I love) because the acid inhibits the starch attack of the rye flour.  
  • Bittman says that the slower natural yeasts work better with whole grains than commercial yeast

So we'll see if the oven proofer setting does the trick.  

 

JimT47's picture
JimT47

Thanks for your feedback Louis.  I too have been using the super-starter method and my oven for all steps, keeping temp at about 75 because countertop is in mid-60’s. Oh, and the starter looks great right out of the fridge, then expands beautifully in the 4-5 hours after feeding, making for a healthy super-starter.   I leave the super-started jump-starter in the oven overnight, and make my dough next morning at about the 10-12 hour point that Bittman & Conan recommend.  Follow all their instructions thereafter.

I think I am simply not getting the water right, but too much (my guess) or too little?  My dough remains shaggy and floppy throughout the autolyze, the seasoning and the folds.  It tears easily when I go to fold it.  And when I shape it I’m really just gathering a loose mass and plopping it into the DO.  AT 1200’ elevation, with outside temperatures in the 30’s and lower winter humidity I’ve not tried reducing the water content, but absent any better ideas, I’ll try that next.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Try watching Bread Code 100% Whole Wheat Sourdough and apply some of his dough strengthening techniques after you mix the dough (ie, in Bittman after adding the salt and before the 1st fold).  I kneaded the dough until it looked and felt more like the dough in the video.  

Also, I think Bittman exaggerates the amount of water you have to work in.  I stopped spritzing the bench and I shook off any extra water on my hands before folding and got dough that looked and felt a lot more like the dough in the video, ie, elastic and extensible dough rather than thick batter.  

Assuming that the cold start baking is not bogus, about the only thing left to try is using the oven proofer setting (~73°F) instead of room temp (which is currently ~68-69℉; chilly for Southern California)

JimT47's picture
JimT47

Thanks Louis…I will watch the video and try your suggestions.

caryn's picture
caryn

I just want to express my enthusiasm for the Bread Code. He has done so many experiments with sourdough and has developed a number of charts to make sourdough bread baking really understandable.  I trust him more than Bittman who seems to take a glib approach to whole grain sourdough baking.  Maybe by incorporating Henrick’s ideas with the Bittman approach, we can approach a best method for making 100% whole wheat sourdough. One idea of Henrick’s is to put some of the dough in a narrow diameter tube or jar to observe the rise of the dough, though I am not sure what the target rise increase would be using the Bittman technique. It would at least be something to use to judge bread outcomes with various rising height percentages before baking.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Gluten Tag!  The Bread Code guy doesn't mention his name often nor is it obvious at his YouTube channel.

I don't remember where but somewhere else I got the tip about taking a small piece of dough before final shaping and putting it in a small jar  with marks to show how much it had risen during the final proof.  This works pretty well with yeasted breads and generally agrees with the poke test.  On a Bread Code video someone says "aliquot" which is a chemistry term for a small sample taken off a bigger batch for testing.  

One unusual aspect of the Bittman technique is that his proofing time is 15-20 minutes (rarely more than 15 min he writes) after the 4th fold.  Conventional bread, yeasted or sourdough, usually proofs at room temp for 1-2 hrs after final shaping.  The poke test and the resulting baked bread appear to show that my Bittman breads have not been underproofed.even if they have not expanded much after the 4th fold.

I used the oven proofer for the dough once I started the folds.  Maybe to get an active enough levain I need to use the proofer rather than a cool room all the way through, from feeding the starter to fermenting the levain to the autolyse and holding the dough during bulk fermentation and then proofing.  

And I ho-pe I don't need twice daily 1:5:5 feedings of the starter for two days before making the bread. 

caryn's picture
caryn

The thing is that I followed Bittman’s technique pretty much to the letter, keeping all steps at about 72°F and my results were rather dense ( not a brick- sill quite tasty), so maybe I do need to evaluate my starter by feeding it. I may run this as a test the next time I try one of his breads. I agree I would not want to feed 1:5:5 over 2 days either unless I determine that it is necessary!

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I have been trying to bake 100% whole wheat Bittman bread for several weeks with no success.  My last (in both senses) attempt included King Arthur whole wheat flour, sourdough starter that doubled just before mixing the levain ("jumpstarter"), all room temp time in the oven on the proofer setting ~77 F., lots of strength-adding folds after mixing the dough before the autolyse, after adding the salt, and during each of the 4 folds. 

I used no water on the board and not too much water on my hands in order to make what seemed like an elastic and extensible dough.  Here are photos of my proof-o-meter just before I put the dough & dutch oven in the oven  Proof-o-meter and Bittman Bread  The bread is barely higher than the thickness of the cutting board and the crumb is closed.  

The dough and looked and felt OK before baking and it appeared to proof adequately.  But I got virtually no oven spring.

I suppose that I could try preheating the oven, but Bittman says don't even consider it, and other recipes also suggest cold starts.

Maybe I'll try some of the 50% whole wheat sour.  dough formulas from "Bread" or the recipe from The Bread Code 100% whole wheat sourdough video.

At least the discard pancakes and muffins and roti were good. 

 

mariana's picture
mariana

I got the same results. My tiny dense loaf came out being only 6" in diameter and 2"tall. It lost 20%of its weight during baking prescribed in the book. It looks exactly like in the book: small, dense, with tiny pores.

I guess that is the kind of bread Bittman likes to eat: chewy, rubbery, with tough, completely undeveloped gluten and hard, thick, burnt crust. It requires a lot of strength to cut through. I guess that is why he uses an electric knife. More like a chainsaw is needed! He shows it in his book: the loaf he holds in his hands.

 

the same loaf is shown being sliced:

I don't see anything revolutionary in this approach to bread baking at home in the last hundred years as he claims in his book and his Instagram. Rather looks like return to a very primitive, childlike kind of handling bread. Including inventing his own names for the steps of starter refreshment and preferments. Refresh one time and it's a jumpstarter. Twice? Superstarter. Three times? Frankenstarter!

There is a huge amount of variability built-in there (any flour goes for as long as it is "wheat", any temperature of ingredients and fermentation, any yeast or any starter, any length of fermentation) which of course will give different results to different people. The only things he insists on is the super short proof/rest of shaped loaves before baking and cold oven. And no kneading, must be no kneading! These are like sacred points for him, I do not understand why. 

I think most people expect something else from that book and feel disappointed. He likes hard bread with chewy crumb and closed pores  and he describes how to bake such bread. It doesn't rise spectacularly when it ferments or in the oven. So he honestly teaches how to bake exactly the bread shown in his pictures and he honestly says that you will never buy something like that from a store or a bakery. Never. 

These are samples of his crumb from the book, notice how his small loaf is 2" tall and 8" wide: 

I got nearly identical crumb and the slice shape in my small loaf:

Even his all-purpose of bread flour yeasted bread has the same type of crumb:

So we, as his readers should not expect anything different. 

caryn's picture
caryn

I have to say that I agree with both of you, Mariana and Louis. I have been making sourdough breads for many years and it does seem like this method is really a step backwards. It would be nice if such a method that is relatively easy would yield good results. I did get one pretty good loaf so far using his formula using rye, cornmeal and molasses. Perhaps the added sweetener helped with the rise.  It is puzzling that Bittman who has written some seemingly reliable cookbooks over the years could have developed one so flawed. Obviously if his technique was so good, we would not be having this conversation.

Another criticism of the book that I have as well is that all of the breads at the beginning of the book are really all the same formula. The first at least half of the book could be summarized in just a few pages.

As I suggested before, it would be insightful for you to try the methods and formulas of Hamelman and The Bread Code before giving up on sourdough whole grain baking. I also question the necessity for bread to be 100% whole grain to be healthy. If your bread contains some whole grain and your diet includes lots of fruits and vegetables, I am not sure it is that important. That said, I think it is an interesting challenge to achieve it, and The Bread Code guy seems to think his 100% whole wheat is among his best.

All of this said, and I have just mixed Bittman’s overnight starter to try out the recipe for rolls, which is just the same basic dough shaped as rolls. I can critique them tomorrow. At least in my opinion, the brick-like loaves that I have made were at least flavorful, especially when toasted. So the testing continues! 

 

caryn's picture
caryn

So I again tested the Bittman method with his rolls that I made to use as buns for sandwiches. First, the baking took far longer than the 25-30 minutes as specified in the recipe to reach 205°F. I think the dough rose enough, but I was honestly underwhelmed with the taste. I don’t think it is worth the trouble when the outcome is not very exciting. I have not felt that with any of the sourdough breads that I have made in the past. Since I still have the book from the library, I may still try some of the other options in the book where there may be more inclusions to make the bread more interesting.

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Thanks for the update and the pictures, Caryn! 

My husband disliked the taste of Bittman bread so much that he discarded it when I was not looking! No more Bittman bread for us then. I do like the ideas for breads and variations in the book though, just not his revolutionary method of working with the wheat flour based dough or baking it in a tiny, terribly rusted cast iron pot.

I did try the recipe for the sourdough starter that Mr.Bittman published in his book and on his website bittmanproject.com after I found out that it was originally from Daniel Leader who is a great baker and bakery owner and therefore the recipe can be trusted. Bittman wrote in one of his NYT articles that he found that starter recipe in Leader's book "Bread Alone" published in 1993, nearly thirty years ago. I have that Leader's book and it explained the recipe fully, so I tested it.

The sourdough culture (i.e. the chef, which Bittman calls "starter") was ready for baking with it in 2 1/2 days at 80F and had an absolutely divine aroma and taste. I used whole wheat all-purpose flour, FiveRoses brand, for it, nothing exotic.

I loved it! Highly recommended for the beginners, the recipe is indeed very easy and effortless.

caryn's picture
caryn

Mariana- I also own that book and know that Daniel Leader is a well accomplished baker. I also own a second book of his, “Local Breads Sourdough and Wholegrain Recipes From Europe’s Best Artisan Bakers.”  You have now inspired me to re-visit these books for ideas. I think the Bittman formula mostly results in mediocre bread if you just follow the basic dough. Again, I did like the cornmeal molasses variation and may play with that one again. I do understand your husband’s reaction; I get it!  I also think that sometimes baking with 100% whole grain is not worth the compromise in texture which is more easily obtained by using a mix of whole grains and white flour.

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I second for a renewed commitment to Daniel Leader's books.  I used to bake through them a lot.  I have way too many books.  I've yet to bake through Calvel, or Hamelman - two I consider foundational.  I'll never get there.

 

coneileipi's picture
coneileipi

I have had good results with Kerri's Sandwich Loaf. In fact, my spouse requested that I make this for his daily bread. I followed the Bittman method exactly as written. Then I tried the Enriched Sandwich Bread, and it was an epic fail. Next I tried the Bittman bread variation with seeds: 50 g total of caraway, fennel, and sesame seeds. It came out well, pretty enough to give as a birthday present. I use a Brod and Taylor proofing box set at 70 degrees, and I do all stretching, folding, and shaping in a large bowl as demonstrated by Kerri in the book.

I appreciate Mark Bittman's enthusiasm, and I like working with and eating the small loaves the recipes make. Clearly he is on a mission to get people to make and eat 100% whole wheat bread for a healthy diet. It is also clear from this thread that there are experienced bread bakers not having success with his methods, and that does not bode well for his target audience, folks new to making whole wheat sourdough breads. Maybe version 2.0 will be a step closer.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I'm just glad that I'm not the only one having difficulties with it.  But some people are obviously successful.  It's possible that my starter just didn't have enough oomph.   I'm trying to create a rye starter, maybe I'll have better luck. 

caryn's picture
caryn

I think that a method that is not reliable is not a good one. I think Bittman in his desire to simplify misses explaining the variables that may come into play when using the method, like types of wheat, time , temperature and strength of starter. I can see if one has not had much experience with sourdough baking, his book would be very frustrating. I do encourage anyone to view The Bread Code on YouTube for really good insights on sourdough baking.

joshualouis's picture
joshualouis

So, today/yesterday was my first run of doing the "Bittman Bread" (I skipped straight to this step without trying his starter method and just used mine.)  My weekly loaf is a whole grain sourdough, so this isn't entirely new territory to me.  (I mill my own flour with my Komo as well.)    

My alterations were doing a 500g of flour loaf instead of 300 (and scaling the recipe accordingly) and baking in my 5 qt lodge combo cooker.  

It's a delicious bread and the dough was lovely -- although I don't think I generally incorporate as much water during folds as Bittman so I think it could've upped the hydration.  The dough spread a bit when proofing in the pan and I think could've used a second shaping (or perhaps my initial shaping just wasn't enough to preserve the surface tension), so the shape could've been better.   My other note would be it was my first time ever trying the cold oven method and I'm curious to work on that a bit more -- it took my oven the whole first half hour to get to the desired temperature. 

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Welcome to TFL, Joshua! 

And that's a nice looking loaf and crumb, especially for 100% home-milled grain!

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That loaf looks great.  I am trying to create a rye starter to see if I can get more lift.   And maybe a bigger loaf and more conventional technique will work better than Bittman.

caryn's picture
caryn

Joshua- It was instructive to learn of your success with the Bittman method, given that some of us have not had such good results. My take on this is perhaps your initial starter was stronger than some of ours. I also used my own starter which is has always been reliable for me and converted it to the 100% style that Bittman uses. Perhaps that diminished the starter’s strength. You also said that it took quite a while for your oven to reach the target temperature and that may have been in your favor, giving the dough more time to proof before the yeast cells are killed by the bake. Maybe if the oven is faster to preheat, it might be necessary to proof the dough longer at  room temperature before putting it in the oven. Seeing your  fine results only encourages me to keep working with his method. 

 

joshualouis's picture
joshualouis

Thanks for the comments everyone!

I've tried this a second time now and am pretty happy with the results.  I made a conscientious effort to add more water while I folded to get more of the "Bittman experience" so to speak.   I did add a short bench step (and replaced 17% of the flour with Kamut for some fun.)  

 

 

I do think my crust isn't as crisp from this method, likely not exposed to as high a heat as long as I am used to.  I'll probably keep tinkering but overall I'm happy with how the dough handles AND I really enjoy the flavor.  It's a good percentage of pre-ferment IMO!

 

Ann Bakes's picture
Ann Bakes

Thank you for this thread. I was reading it as I baked my first 100% WW Bittman loaf. It seemed to go ok for me, though I haven’t tasted it yet. I’m a bit cynical that I would choose 100% WW over a blend, but I want to keep an open mind.  I would post a photo, but I haven’t figured out how to do that yet. Help!

 

Mumin's picture
Mumin

Reading the comments, I have to wonder whether the problem is in the recipe or my execution.  I made my first loaf a couple of days ago.  The dough was never elastic.  It broke rather than stretching.  After all the admonitions to wet my hands while folding the bread, I was surprised to find that the dough was not at all sticky. When I mixed the dough it never looked "shaggy."  It held together, was easy to shape into a ball, and never stuck to my hands, the spatula or the bowl.  I tried adding more water this time around but still no stickiness.

The only whole wheat flour available just before new years was King Arthur white whole wheat.  KA says that the only difference is the color, now the wholeness of the wheat.  Could this make a difference?  I ordered a scale, which should arrive tomorrow, so I have been using his volume conversions.  Is the recipe sensitive enough that this would make a difference?  Could my starter not have started enough?  I noticed that after only 2 days in the fridge the starter had a darker brown top layer.  Same with the "jumpstarter" this morning that I mixed last night.  Does anyone have any advice?  At this point I am tempted to just go back to white-flour, instant-yeast, no-knead bread with seeds, which has worked without fail for me for years. 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

You may be surprised by how much difference measuring by weight vs volume makes.  

I had no success with Bittmanś method, certainly worse than I got using commercial yeast. I am going to try to use some more conventional sourdough techniques because sourdough is said by Hamelman to be much better suited for rye breads,and I love rye.

In the meantime, you could try some of the whole wheat formulas here  Bread Formulas with commercial yeast fort asty an healthy whole grain breads.

coneileipi's picture
coneileipi

I recommend Stanley Ginsberg's The Rye Baker. This was my introduction to sourdough baking, and I followed his instructions to make my rye starter. I have successfully made several of the recipes from the book, and my go-to everyday German rye is the Ammerland Black Bread. It's formula looks similar to Bittman's Travel Bread, and I look forward in the next week or two to a side-by-side taste test.

caryn's picture
caryn

For those interested in sourdough ryes, I just got this through the Breadtopia newsletter. It is free to see the blog on Breadtopia’s site. I believe that the recipes on this site are reliable and include some very well done instructional videos. Here’s a link to the bread:

https://breadtopia.com/tourte-de-seigle-100-rye-bread/

I have not made it yet, but it looks extremely interesting.

jblpsyched's picture
jblpsyched

I'm late to this thread and have a lot to add after spending the past 1-2 weeks reading Bittman's book, making starter, and trying his method for producing whole wheat sourdough. I'll keep this short at first and elaborate if/when/as needed. I agree with the prevailing sentiment that his recipe is flawed--despite his confidence and certainty in it. I am a moderately experienced bread baker, certainly no expert, but this is my first attempt at using starter rather than yeast.

When I used Bittman's recipe with 100% KA WW flour it didn't rise much, tasted fine, but in my wife's words it was 'too dense for everyday use.' Similar result to many others here and elsewhere. I made it again using KA W/WW flour and it turned out much better--good/normal oven rise, good crust/crumb/taste.

I concluded that the density of 100% WW flour is too much for Bittman's approach so rather than trying it again I found an alternative recipe on YouTube (by a young guy who calls himself The Regular Chef). I followed his recipe very carefully, made detailed notes, and got much better results than with Bittman. In other words, making sourdough bread with 100% WW flour is doable for regular folks like me (non experts).

The difference between Bittman's approach and the other one I used by The Regular Chef is...time. For example, my levain/jumpstarter took a full 24 hours to double in size (vs. 8-12 hours w/Bittman). My autolyse period using The Regular Chef approach was 7.5 hours (mostly because I was at work that morning)--I don't think that length of time is required but I suspect that 30-60 minutes is too short.

The Regular Chef approach calls for a total of 6 folds (vs. Bittman's 4 folds), with 25 mins rest in b/t each one; so in effect that's an extra 1+ hour to build dough structure. Finally, and I suspect most importantly, The Regular Chef approach recommends 6-9 hours of proofing (in the fridge) before final shaping and baking. I probably proofed my loaves for 10 hours in the fridge (overnight).

I am a very early riser so I got up this morning at 4:00am, preheated the oven to 500F w/the dutch oven inside, baked the loaves one at a time in the dutch oven (20 mins covered, 10 mins uncovered for each), and the results were, as stated above, much improved over my attempt at using Bittman's approach.

Personally I doubt that using a cold oven vs. preheated is a huge variable (despite Bittman's certainty), and I think the additional folds/resting time are of minor significance. I think the much longer time that I spent waiting for my (Bittman) starter-levain to double in size + autolyse + proofing (especially proofing) were the key to successfully using 100% WW flour to create really nice (and pretty) sourdough bread. Cheers!

caryn's picture
caryn

Thank you so much for this. I think what you described is probably similar to the approach that The Bread Code guy (also on YouTube) takes. It really makes sense that more time might solve many of the problems some of us have had with Bittman’s method. I will check out The Regular Chef as well

daveh's picture
daveh (not verified)

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post.

I used to bake all my bread 25 years ago (100% whole wheat yeasted sandwich bread plus a few other odds and ends), but have not baked bread very often since then. I was excited to hear about Bittman’s new book and am giving it my best try. I have no preconceived notions about how to bake sourdough bread, did not have my own starter, and don’t know the vocabulary. 

 

I’ve been generally happy with the results thus far, though there are a couple kinks to work out. My loaves thus far have risen nicely. Actually, the edges of the slashes on top tend to burn a bit because they rise up to touch the lid of the dutch oven. I’ll use a larger one in the future. 

 

I’m generally happy with the texture. One thing, though, is that while the loaf seems fully cooked and reaches 208-210º before I take it out of the oven, the inside is somewhat moist and sticky. (I do wait for it to cool completely before slicing.) My electric oven takes half an hour to reach its final temperature, so I’m extending the initial bake with the lid on to 40 minutes, and I might try going even longer. Also, my oven still doesn’t get all the way up to the final temperature the recipe calls for, so there’s more experimenting to do there.  

 

The crust gets nice and dark, and is pleasantly crisp and chewy, but it’s very difficult to slice, especially the bottom crust. What I mean to say is, slicing the loaf if hard work! I want to achieve a compromise so that the crust is nice but not so difficult to slice. I'm reducing the baking time with the lid off to 5" to see if that helps.

 

All this being said, I’m happy with the results and am encouraged to keep experimenting to work on the stickiness and the crust being too hard to slice. And after that, I’m sure there are other improvements to be made.

 

Thank you for listening. :)

I baked my third loaf today (not counting the initial white loaf) using 100% King Arthur WW flour. See pics. It was less moist than earlier loaves, and the crust was less hard, so my tinkering may be moving things in the right direction. 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Your bread looks terrific outside and inside.  That;s just what I would like to get but could not get close with Bittman.

I have taken my starter out of the fridge for 3 feedings before trying a half-size Hamelman wheat-rye-high gluten miche again, with lots more kneading right after the mix.  

daveh's picture
daveh (not verified)

...I wish I could edit this and make the photos smaller. Sorry about that!

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Looks like a tasty loaf!

You should be able to resize photos after inserting them. Select the photo and drag from a corner until you get the size you want.

caryn's picture
caryn

I have given the “Bittman Method” a rest since I was tired of being disappointed with overly dense loaves, so I started exploring other options. I have been baking sourdough breads for a long time, but am always looking for new ideas and approaches. When jblpsyched mentioned “the regular chef” on YouTube, I also stumbled on another really good video on making almost all whole wheat bread: https://youtu.be/kJ2f-LQ8B4E. I followed this with the exception of skipping his extra feeding on the dough making day. (I did an overnight autolyse with the man dough ingredients excluding the salt when I made the overnight starter refresh and scaled the starter for the 200g used in the 2-loaf recipe.) I think I got some of the best shaped loaves with great oven spring that I have ever made, following his techniques! So I thought I would share a picture.

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I finally got an OK loaf using parts of the Bittman Bread.  I meant use my rye starter with whole wheat flour in the levain and 50g high gluten flour in the final dough (amount equal to the starter) to compensate for the lack of gluten in the rye, with ww flour for the rest.

But I fouled up and made the whole levain with 100g of dark rye (plus the 50g starter).   So I made the final dough with 200g of high gluten flour.  And I worked the final dough a lot more than Bittman suggests before the first fold.  

On top of evening else, I did not use convection in the oven; it took over 40 minutes to come up to 485 F while the dough was in the pot in the oven.

The final result wasn't too bad.   It's got an open crumb, a nice rye flavor, and while there was no oven spring to speak of, it didn't colapse either; the height is about what you could expect with 150g or rye out of 350g total of flour.  

Rye Photo

I am not sold on the Bittman cold start baking.  I think I'll go back to a traditional procedure but making sure to substitute high gluten flour for whole wheat for the amount of rye flour in the starter.  The result should be around 80% whole grain hopefully with some oven spring, vs a 100% whole grain frisbee.

I guess a whole wheat starter is not as much of a drag on spring as a rye starter, but I love the flavor of the rye. 

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis- Actually I think your rye loaf looks impressive. Especially if it tastes good,  I think it was a complete success in my opinion. I have come to the conclusion that the most important element in making sourdough bread is the robustness of the starter. I am guessing your starter is working very well even if you didn’t have much oven spring.. I am curious if you were following his feeding schedule for the starter because I have neglected the Bittman starter since I haven’t baked with it for a while. I am curious how you are maintaining it.

I also think there might be diminishing value in having a bread be 100% whole grain. If it is at least 70% it probably has a lot of health value, especially if it results in a better bread.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That bread ended up about 1/3 rye (counting the starter) and 2/3 high gluten flour.  It is delicious, but I really like rye.

Here are the instructions I used for the starter Grant Bakes Sourdough Starter Guide.  It is the 3rd starter that I tried to make and this one works nicely.  Once it was going, I started keeping it in the fridge and feeding it once a week (plus bread making days).  I feed 1:1:1

  • I weigh out 50g of starter and put the rest into the discard container in the fridge
  • I add and mix 50g of dark rye + 50g warm water
  • Leave at room temp 1-2 hrs and then back in the fridge

Other feedings are related to baking:

  • Day 1: Early morning remove starter from fridge and feed as above; leave at room temp covered but not sealed tight
  • Day 1: 12 hours later feed again the same way and leave at room temp
  • Day 2: Early morning feed again as before, leave at room temp
  • Day 2: 12 hours later Mix levain/jumpstarter; cover and leave at room temp.  Feed starter as before and return to fridge
  • Day 3: starting early morning
  • - Autolyse remaining flour 
  • - Mix final dough with lots of work to build strength (dough and arms)
  • - Fold every 30 minutes during bulk fermentation; keep dough in oven on proofer setting
  • - When doubled, preshape and rest 20 minutes
  • - Shape and proof in a bowl or basket or couche (or dutch oven for Bittman); proof in the oven as above
  • - Bake when indicated by poke test

I am coming around to your view on 100% whole grain.  It might work with whole wheat and a whole wheat starter but it just doesn't fly with rye.  I am going to keep working on a half-recipe for Hamelman's Mixed Flour Miche (which is delicious) but swapping in some high gluten flour for the whole wheat to compensate for the rye in the starter and final dough.

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis- Thank you for your starter and bread formulas. I will save them. I, too, really like rye in bread and should make more like yours.

Besides keeping up some starter in the refrigerator, I follow another technique for always having starter in the freezer that is ready to use. What I do is feed the starter using the ratio of 1:4:4, starter to flour to water. Then I immediately put the starter into ice cube trays and freeze. With this method, you do not let the starter ferment at this point. When you want to bake, you weigh out what you need for bread plus a little extra to feed for the next frozen batch and allow it to thaw and ferment at room temp (72°F) for 18 hours. So, I usually take the frozen starter out at 7 PM and create the bread dough at 1 PM the next day. Then I create the dough in the afternoon and proof the shaped loaf in a banneton overnight in the refrigerator for baking the next morning. I have been doing this for years and it works well. If you might not be using the frozen starter for a while, you can add some glycerin to the starter while mixing it, using about 2% of the flour weight that you are adding for the amount. I found glycerin at a beer-making store.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That's the first time I have heard of freezing starter.  It obviously works well for you.  Is your starter wheat, rye or a blend?  Whole wheat/dark rye or while?

The Bread Code suggested feeding at 1:4:4 or 1:5:5 for the 3 feedings before mixing the dough.  I think he said the slower feeding would favor yeast vs bacteria and hence lead to better volume and oven soring.  I tried it once and my 100% rye starter was very slow to respond.  I dumped most of the starter into the discard container and went back to 50g starter + 1:1:1 feedings once a week + twice a day on each of the two days before baking  I leave the starter at room temp for 2 - 4 hrs after feeding and before refrigerating.  We keep our fridge at 37 F which apparently stops rye from feeding.  

I just got "The Rye Baker" which is loaded with detail.  

 

caryn's picture
caryn

I learned this technique from “Modernist Bread,” a multi volume set of books that I purchased several years ago. I think it is important to have a really strong starter to begin with for this technique to work well. I think what the 1:4:4 or 1:5:5 ratios do is to allow you a longer fermentation time so that feedings do not have to be so often. I find that having cubes of starter in the freezer allows me the convenience of always having some starter ready to go assuming I plan ahead. Lately I have been using 75% bread flour and 25% whole wheat, though I read recently that using an A.P. flour might actually be better for a starter.

if you don’t mind feeding the starter daily, then that method has the advantage of your observing it’s strength every time you feed it. I just rely on the fact that I don’t believe I have any real failures with the frozen method the way using Bittman’s method disappointed me at least up to now.

caryn's picture
caryn

That book sounds right up my alley. I already have too many bread books, so I will look for it at the library.

apo383's picture
apo383

Like others, I've been disappointed with flatter outcomes than expected. But on inspection, my second loaf is actually not a complete disaster:

I'd like it to be quite a bit higher, but there is some crumb, and it's roughly in the same universe as what I'd like. So here are some thoughts:

1. I think a small pot is key. The dough has high hydration and doesn't develop much skin while it proofs, so it likes to sag in the pot. I used the Bittman recipe (about 350g WW flour) but only have a 3 qt pot. I now suspect that I need to make a bigger recipe/smaller pot, so that the sides are supported. I'm hoping this will reduce sag and allow for higher rise. My previous white flour sourdoughs never had this problem, because they could hold their shape much better. I don't think that's true for a full WW dough.

2. Careful with the folds. My first loaf was extremely flat, in part because I folded rather brusquely, which is fine when followed by a long bulk ferment. But the Bittman recipe goes into the oven very soon after a brief rest/proof. I later noticed a small detail on p. 71: "the fourth fold is barely a fold...it forms a ball." They say you should be gentle and avoid squeezing out bubbles, and I now wish they had called this a gentle shaping instead of a fold. Not entirely my fault, since the section on Folds starts on p. 64, and these comments are hidden away seven pages later.

3. This is a very high hydration dough. I've never worked with so much water before. In my first loaf, I followed the recipe exactly, and got a dry dough. I believe my flour and environment needs more water. I hydrated more in the second try, and I believe I over-did it, but the dough felt more elastic and stronger. Hopefully I am developing a feel for things.

In the end, I have some more attempts to do. My flattish loaves were delicious, and things are headed in a good direction. I am convinced that the pot size is critical, and hope to prove that next. I am still a bit weirded out by the short proofing time, and need to suspend my disbelief that such a tiny dough will expand enough. I do like the idea of a natural starter WW bread. Peter Reinhart's recipe uses some commercial yeast, which is also fine by me, but has more steps than I want to do. I also like Bittman's idea of taking starter straight out of the fridge, without having to spend a day or two reviving it. However, since many others have experienced a disappointing open spring, I think they could have done more to explain how to make it happen. I can believe that Mark and Kerri tested extensively, but that's not the same as having a bunch of amateurs reading the instructions in their own way and with their own mis-interpretations, and baking with the variety of pots and flours that you get all over the world. The book is not a slam dunk, but seems to have high potential.

caryn's picture
caryn

I am glad you are having some success with Bittman’s merhod, buI even though I would like to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, I feel that their book is targeted at armatures and if they couldn’t communicate the methods well, then they have missed their mark. I wouldn’t even call them experts; I may have had more experience with sourdough then they have and I was not pleased with the results. I have baked from so many books, and this is the first time I have really struggled to get a good outcome. Maybe the positive aspect of their book is that it has inspired some of to try to be successful with whole grain breads, even if their technique really needs tweaking.

annD's picture
annD

I have been following this discussion for the past month. I used to make yeasted bread 25 years ago but have not baked much bread since then and never before made sourdough. I have been wanting to learn a recipe for decent 100% whole wheat bread, so was intrigued when I heard an interview about Bittman's book and ordered it. I have made the recipe 6 times now, and it has been a learning process. The first time was the white bread, the second I used King Arthur white whole wheat and I did not like the flavor at all, I bought some fresh ground Glenn wheat bread flour from Buck Farms in ME and find the flavor and texture and workability of the dough much improved. My experience has been that getting the right amount of hydration makes a big difference. Because this technique requires the continual addition of water at each fold to prevent sticking, the bread can get too hydrated by the final fold, causing it to flatten out and not rise as much. 

I make the bread once a week, The day I start the process I feed the entire starter at 5 PM as in directions for the "Superstarter" (50 g flour and water) then at 10 pm make the jumpstarted using 100 g of starter/water/flour (I put the starter back in the fridge and do nothing until the next week). My big problem is I keep forgetting to set the timer so often much longer between steps.

Since I have never made any other whole wheat sourdough bread I didn't know what to expect or how the final product compares to other techniques. One of my objections is that given the amount of time and effort, the loaf is small, (3" high x 6" across), 1.25 lbs. Is this because it is not rising enough? The crust is more chewy than crunchy, is that because of the high hydration? How do I know when it is done cooking? Using my instant read thermometer what should the internal temperature be?

I find the book somewhat arrogant. The book makes it sound like they have invented a whole new process, but "the regular chef" and others seem to use a similar technique (and have figured out how to share with viewers at no cost). I find it confusing that he makes up new terminology ("jump starter" instead of levin). This may be geared towards the inexperienced sourdough bakers, but he doesn't create a clear path on how to move past his book.

How does this look to you? Now that I get fairly consistent results I think I'll begin experimenting with some of the other techniques mentioned.

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

You're having better success than I did, perhaps you because you had the patience to keep at it and try different things. The cold start that Bittman loves ("no reason to even think about it") just does not work for me.  

I've used yeasted recipes from "Bread" by Hamelman for years and now I'm trying the sourdough recipes.  I jumped right in with a rye and wheat miche, and then the wheat-only version - both are about 85% whole grain (which I could handle with yeast) but my sourdough skills are not up to it.  So I'm going to try a simpler one with a smaller percentage of whole wheat and try to work my way up.  Ands when/if I get there, I'll the wheat and rye blends, because I love the flavor.     

  • Finish temp for lean sourdough breads is usually 205-210 F. internal
  • For a crustier crust, try letting the bread cool in the oven on a rack with the oven door open a little.  This allows the remaining water in the bread to steam off without softening the crust
mp1789's picture
mp1789

This looks awesome!  I am so disappointed:  when i made my loaf today, it basically did not rise.  I am a veteran sourdough baker and have never had this happen - even with rye bread!  Using a rye starter!  I am going to give it another go next week.  It tastes good, but the failure to rise is annoying.  Your pictures and post have given me hope:  I WILL try again!

caryn's picture
caryn

Yes, AnnD, you have had better results than some of us. My take on all of the comments here is that if you really want to make good sourdough bread, then read and use Hamelman’s “Bread” and watch some of the really good YouTube videos, such as The Bread Code. That way you will get a much better view of the process. I agree that Bittman just seems arrogant in his approach. I think you will and have gotten it to work, but to me his “simplified” process is just frustrating.
 
Also, as I have commented before, I think trying to achieve 100% whole wheat bread is over-rated. I think the main reason to bake with whole grains is flavor. I recently was re-reading one of the bread books that I own and the authors stated that there are really no studies that show that added fiber prevents colon cancer, for instance. So other than trying to achieve it for the challenge, I think bread can be worthwhile even if contains considerably less than 100% whole grain.

daveh's picture
daveh (not verified)

apo383

1. I think a small pot is key. 

 

I agree. I'm using a 3-quart cast-iron enameled pot that's wider and not as tall as the 2-quart dutch oven recommended in the book. My loaves aren't sagging, but I think I'll get a 2-quart Lodge anyway since it'll be useful for lots of things and I want to see what effect that particular shape has, especially the height.

2. . . I later noticed a small detail on p. 71: "the fourth fold is barely a fold...it forms a ball."

Thank you for pointing that out. I must have glossed over that, even though I've read the instructions multiple times. I've probably been handling the dough too much in the fourth fold, and look forward to making that change next time I bake.

annD

I think your bread looks great. Why not scale up the recipe for a larger loaf?

"I feed the entire starter at 5 PM as in directions for the "Superstarter" (50 g flour and water) then at 10 pm make the jumpstarted"

That's interesting. I'd forgotten about the superstarter. I might give it a try, even though I'm not really having any problems with my starter. 

"I find the book somewhat arrogant. "

Me too, Bittman in particular, but for me Kerri Conan softens things a bit. I'm excited enough about the prospect of a 100% WW loaf starting in a cold oven and with no discard from the starter that I'm overlooking the arrogance to see what I can learn.  

louiscohen

"For a crustier crust, try letting the bread cool in the oven on a rack with the oven door open a little.  This allows the remaining water in the bread to steam off without softening the crust

Thank you for that tip. I've been having trouble with a gummy interior, and I'm guessing this will help with that as well.

caryn's picture
caryn

From my experience, a gummy interior either means that the dough has not risen sufficiently or it hasn’t baked long enough.

caryn's picture
caryn

I thought some might be interested in the following quote by Hamelman that appeared in his book, “Bread.”

 

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Who wouldn't agree with Hamelman that good bread of all kinds is good bread.   Unfortunately, if you are a type II diabetic (probably type I as well) who needs to avoid simple carbohydrates that are quickly metabolized as blood glucose, then you need to avoid white flour and stick with whole grains in which the bran slows down the creation of glucose .

Bricks of 100% rye are nice platforms for smpked fish and spreads.  But I'm trying to do something a little more showy - crusty bread that soup/stew recipes tell you to serve with a lower glycemic index (speed of conversion to glucose) as well.  

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis- I was only speaking to the general notion that white bread is bad and whole wheat is the only way. I am glad you made your point. Of course what you say makes total sense. For the general population for people who do not have dietary needs, Hanelman makes a good point. I am glad you shared your situation. If it is best for you to limit yourself to whole grains, that really is not a bad thing anyway. For the most part, I think whole-grain bread is inherently more interesting.

mp1789's picture
mp1789

I'm a veteran sourdough baker.  I have excellent results with wheat, spelt, barley/spelt,, and (even!) rye loaves- all leavened with sourdough, no yeast.  I have 2 starters:  one 100% rye (for my rye bakes - fantastic rise!) and one 100% KAF  high-gluten flour for non-rye bakes.  I got Bittman's book out of the library and tried to make the WW loaf today.  It tastes good, but the rise was spectacularly lackluster.  I did 4 folds over 2 hours - I am wondering if it should go for 3 hours with folding every 30 minutes?:  After 2 hours, the dough seemed rather weak and was not holding its structure.  Nevertheless, i baked it.  The outstanding NYTimes sourdough recipe that uses the 30-minute folding technique has a 3-hour rise, I believe.  It seemed like 3 hours may have given it more of the structure that it lacked.  Also, I made two deviations from the recipe:  1. I used my own 100% KAF high-gluten flour starter, 2. i dissolved the salt in a tiny bit of water before incorporating it into the dough.  I cannot believe that the recipe is so sensitive that i would have to make a whole other separate starter for this bread.  Has anyone else had success/no success using a different starter from the one in the Bittman book?  Regarding the salt: Next time i will just sprinkle the salt on top and work it in as directed; i usually do the water/salt trick with no problem - but maybe this is a fussier recipe.  Any thoughts/guidance anyone has, i would love to hear.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I found that my 100% rye starter does better at room temp than in the oven with the proofer setting, at least with the proofer setting on the whole 12 hrs.

I mixed up some kinda-sorta Bittman with the good rye starter, some starter discard, some whole wheat, and some KAF high gluten flour to compensate for the rye starter discard.   Overall, it came out more or less like the pictures in Bittman's book.  

Separately, I realized  the near equivalence of 3 starter feedings and mixing the final dough, and 2 starter feedings plus a levain.   I am sure there is a subtle taste difference but probablt not enough for me to tell. 

caryn's picture
caryn

If you’ve read what a number of us have written for, you know that Bittman’s method is clearly not a sure method to produce reliable sourdough whole grain bread. I pretty much gave up on his method with too many disappointments. His book did inspire me to re-visit the recipes of Hamelman. I recommend making his “Workday” bread that is in his 3rd edition of Bread. The bread is named because you should easily be able to work it into your working schedule. I describe and picture it here:  https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/504511#comment-504511

 

mp1789's picture
mp1789

I have the Hammelman vol 2 book.  I love it.  Extremely helpful.  I will need to get my hands on a copy of the recipe from vol. 3.

caryn's picture
caryn

I tried hard to find it at my local libraries and after being unsuccessful, I broke down and bought it even though I own the other two editions. I have no regrets. There are enough new formulas that made it worthwhile for me to own.

mp1789's picture
mp1789

there is good stuff in his books.  You've convinced me that vol 3 is worth it.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

From Hamelman's "Bread", 2nd edition, Pain au Levain  with Whole Wheat.  The formula has 20% ww flour + 5% medium rye.  Here are photos of the rye starter after a week in the fridge and 3 x 1:10:10:10 feedings every 12 hrs, per "The Rye Baker": and the bread.

Pain au Levain and Starter

It's still a thick frisbee with little oven spring.  But the combination of ww and rye has a great flavor, even at low percentages.  The crumb isn't bad considering the whole grains.   Maybe an experience baker can tell me if it was a bit underproofed.   The poke test said it was ready to go, but that, and the limited spring, may have been due to a not very frisky starter.  In the first float test that I tried, the levain sample sank like a stone; I gave it another 30 minutes.  

The final dough was sticky, but after a lot of folds it seemed to hold shape reasonably well.  

 

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis- I think you did all of the right things. Your crumb looks fine. Your bread just lacks some oven spring. Did you use some kind of method to create steam? It does make a difference if you put it not a covered and preheated Dutch oven. Did you? If the starter did not float, maybe it wasn’t mature enough. You might also tried an overnight retard sometime. I have usually gotten good results doing that. I have gotten many a loaf shaped like yours when the formula includes a lot of whole grain. If it tastes good and does not seem too dense, I would still call it a success.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I gave up on trays with boiling water long ago.  I think our oven must be vented so that the steam escapes quickly.   I bake in a heavy cast iron dutch oven, preheated 50 F hotter than the baking temp, to allow for the oven door opening.  

I didn't try to float the starter but rather the levain, maybe 11 hrs after mixing it.  

I always did an overnight bulk fermentation retard with yeasted doughs, with great success - always doubling.  Our fridge temp is 37 F.  Hamelman quotes two authorities saying that temps below 46 F will destroy the yeasts.  I could give it a try, but it takes ~12 hrs at room temp after a feeding for for my starter to double.  I would be surprised if the levain or final dough grew much in the fridge.

Or were you suggesting a retarded proof rather than bulk fermentation in the fridge?  I did proof for about 2 hrs at room temp and then in the freezer for 30 minutes, per The Bread Code.

That one was just 25% www + rye, which would have only a small effect on a yeasted dough.  

caryn's picture
caryn

First, I meant an overnight proof- shape the dough and put it in a banneton or make-shift one if you don’t have one. Then you can leave it covered in the refrigerator for 12 to 16 hours according to Hamelman. Then usually you can just bake it without needing to leave it a room temp. I have followed this method with many breads.

As for your starter, if it is taking 12 hours to double, I think you need to do some extra feedings. I will send you a link to a Fresh Loafer who seems to have mastered keeping a potent starter.

caryn's picture
caryn

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69277/100-stoneground-whole-wheat-hokkaido-sourdough-milk-bread

This was very enlightening to me. Go to the last page of this post towards the end.

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis- I think you did all of the right things. Your crumb looks fine. Your bread just lacks some oven spring. Did you use some kind of method to create steam? It does make a difference if you put it not a covered and preheated Dutch oven. Did you? If the starter did not float, maybe it wasn’t mature enough. You might also tried an overnight retard sometime. I have usually gotten good results doing that. I have gotten many a loaf shaped like yours when the formula includes a lot of whole grain. If it tastes good and does not seem too dense, I would still call it a success.

caryn's picture
caryn

Oops I posted twice.

annD's picture
annD

Hi, Im not sure how to use this board, do I "reply" or "post a new comment" I'll see where this comment ends up...

Americas Test Kitchen did an interesting study of temperature and bread doneness. They compared break baked just until the internal temp was 210, and bread baked for 15 minutes longer, when it was still 210 (boiling temperature of water being 212 it seems to stay at that temp). What they found was you can't use reaching 210 as an indicator of bread doneness. The bread that had just reached 210 was still damp and too chewy, but the bread that got the extra 15 minutes was properly cooked. So my guess is if the bread is too moist you just need to cook it longer. https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5719-testing-bread-for-doneness.

I made another successful loaf today. But I never manage to follow the recipe. I'd left my starter in the fridge untouched for more then 2 weeks so I was a little concerned about how active it was.  First I made the "Super starter" and let that sit on the counter overnight, well, about 15 hours. Then I made the "Jump starter" and let that sit 12 hours. Then  I added the rest of the flour/water and let that sit in the fridge overnight, and then I followed the recipe, adding salt and folding 4 times, but usually with more than 30 minutes between folds, and baking in a cold oven. Looks and tastes great.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That looks great.  You did just one feeding (what ratio?) after 2 weeks, then built the levain (effectively a 2nd feeding) and it obviously worked great. 

I'm going to try a retarded proof and maybe later a retarded fermentation.

I typically preheat at 50 F hotter than the baking temp to allow for the oven door opening.  Then I bake 20 min in the dutch oven + 20 minutes lid off + ~10 minutes lid off oven open a crack until appropriately brown and the internal temp is 205 F or more.  

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Ann, nice loaf.  As to temps,  from another fan of Hamelman,  he is pretty clear that he does not think temperature tells you anything about when a loaf is done.  IIRC, he goes by thumping the bottom. 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Hamelman's "Bread:"  is one volume.   But there are 3 editions (that I know of).  I've got a 2nd edition.  Caryn has a 3rd edition which includes a workaday bread not in the 2nd edition.  

The book is terrific; I love his detailed explanations/. It is targeted for commercial bakers; amateurs can just skip some of the details, like detailed flour specifications.  

One annoying thing about the book is that he gives formulas for commercial quantities in both Imperial (lbs and oz and qt and fl oz)  and metric units (kg for flour and water), but the home-size batches are imperial only.  I typically use the commercial quantities and divide by 20 for a single loaf or 10 for a double loaf.  

His technique for shaping batards is one of the less common ones.  

You can see him some King Arthur videos on YouTube.  Watching him shape loaves faster than your eye can follow is amazing. 

 

caryn's picture
caryn

I agree that Hamelman’s measurements for the home baker should be expressed in grams, but here’s what I do: I sometimes divide by 20 as you do, Louis, but lately I want a loaf a bit bigger than that and I scale the recipe for a 1kg loaf by calculating the ratio of 1 kg / total dough weight. I use a calculator and use this decimal to determine (by multiplying) all of the amounts from the metric column expressed in grams (multiplying by 1000).  It only takes a few minutes to do this.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That's the beauty of Baker's Percentages.  You can scale up or down easily to whatever size you like.  I used to scale to 450g total flour, but some formulas seem to have a mass effect - they just work better with double loaves in the 900-1000g range.

 

annD's picture
annD

Superstarter: added 50 g water and 50 g ww flour to the entire jar of starter (think about 150g) - 15 hours at room temp

Jumpstarter/levain: 100 g of 'superstarter' from above, 100 g water, 100 g ww flour (return remaining superstarter to fridge) - 13 hours at room temp

Final mix/autolyse: jumpstarter from above (300 g), 110 g water, 200 g ww flour. 7 g salt added next morning - 9 hours in fridge

I should add. I used a stone ground whole wheat flour my daughter brought me from a mill in Africa, so no idea kind of wheat berry. The flour has much larger flakes of bran and softer flour that most commercial ww flours.

annD's picture
annD

I put together these crib notes on Bittman Bread recipe if they are helpful to anyone

mp1789's picture
mp1789

I have tried the bread again and it still tastes great, but still barely rises. (Caryn and Louis, thanks for you tips). I am noticing on this discussion thread that people that use the 'Suprstarter' step seem to have better luck.  As I'm not quite ready to give up, I'm going to give it a shot with the 'Superstarter' and also follow the clever cheat sheet of AnnD.   

I have been following Bittman for years and cooking everything along with him with great success: no failures; always rave reviews; consistently 'sure thing', reliable crowd-pleaser recipes.  But, what I am finding throughout the Internet, and as others in this discussion have noted, the WW sourdough recipe in this book is most definitely not a 'sure thing'.  The problems seem to be endemic to the recipe - afflicting highly experienced sourdough bakers, those new to it, and even professionals.  I am inclined to join his project bread thing-y and write him a note that if he has a sense of bakerly kindness he will do a YouTube video demystifying (proofing, haha, if you will) that this can be done reliably, consistently.  What I am beginning to sense, here and elsewhere, is that the results are neither reliable nor consistent.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I am having little or ;no luck with Bittman or Hamelman.  Ok, it's me, not them.  So I read some more web pages, especially about bulk fermentation and proofing, and realized that many people bulk ferment 12-24 hrs (sometimes retarded in the fridge, sometimes room temp),  Hamelman's basic sourdough formulas have bulk fermentation at 2-2 1/2 hrs, at DDT's like 76 F (my kitchen has been a steady 73F day and night for a while).  So, I'm trying the Vermont Sourdough with WW (just 10%) and no rey except my starter.  . I got my starter out of the fridge and did 3 1:10:10 feedings 12 hrs apart at room temp.  The starter now increases about 2.5x, which is promising.

I mixed the levain and let it sit at room temp about 17 hrs (vs 16 max in Hamelman).  Hardly any volume increase but I did get little bubbles like an overnight poolish with yeast.  I mixed the dough, had it at room temp about 3 hrs with folds, and just put it in the fridge.  If it isn't ready in 12 hrs I'll give it another 12.  And then I'll try an overnight proof in the fridge.  

Maybe my starter just doesn't have the enthusiasm for a 2 1/2 hr bulk fermentation, even though it seems pretty active

The previous loaf, Hamelman's Pain au Levain with whole wheat flour was better perhaps as a result of lots of folds, not too much water, and 30 minutes in the freezer at the end of a room temp proof, mostly to Hamelman's timings.  

We'll find out in a couple of days.  At least the sourdough discard pancakes - muffins - cornbread - crepes are delicious; I try crackers next.

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis- It just so happens that I just made Hamelman’s Vermont Sourdough. I want to let you know that my starter rarely more than doubles, but still works. I am not sure if you know that the usual tests for proofing do not work when cold proofing. I think I may have learned this from The Bread Code. When proofing 12-16 hours, I just turn it over onto parchment paper from the banneton and put the dough on the parchment onto the hot pot bottom, cover it and bake in the preheated oven. I almost always get decent ovenspring this way.  Also, I don’t  even try to test the overnight build. I just let it ferment for 12-16 hours.

When I made this bread a few days ago, I didn’t time it properly to allow an overnight proofing, so I baked it the same day that I created the dough. This is a link to my bread: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70118/my-bread-log

Currently, it is my last post on the blog.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

That last loaf with AP flour (although KAF AP is as strong as some bread flour brands) with some rye as well is amazing.

I have a Vermont Sourdough with WW proofing in the fridge right now, for baking this evening.  I did an overnight room temp bulk fermentation that looked and felt pretty good, more like the videos than before.  Hamelman's 2 1/2 hr bulk fermentation at room temp is a mysterious as Bittman, unless his starer is on steroids.  Maybe after a few months of daily feedings starters will become that active.  But for once a week bakers, it looks like a 12 hr bulk fermentation.  

The dough has been final proofing in the fridge 36 F for 4-5 hrs with no sign of volume increase.  I don't expect any at that temp but we;ll see what it looks like in 7-8 hours.   At fridge temp, there is probably not much change after 12 hrs.  But if I don't get the oven spring, next time, I'll try rook temp proof for 1-2 hrs and then into the fridge. 

 

caryn's picture
caryn

Louis-I hope you have success with this loaf. I worry that a bulk fermentation this is so long might be too long. Remember that your bread will not necessarily double after the bulk fermentation. The 2.5 hours worked for me. If your environment is a bit cooler, you might want to add up to an hour, but I am not sure the dough could necessarily withstand two long fermentations. As to how robust and how many feedings, I mentioned in a previous post on this thread how Benny only feeds his starter about once a week and maintains a very minimal amount. I have been more or less doing this by saving the small leftover “build” from the bread that I last made. If I end up not baking in a week, I will feed the starter, let it work at room temp and then refrigerate.

I think it makes sense to trust Hamelman, certainly over Bittman, as he has spent a long career as a baker and still bakes at home. I will again add the link to Benny’s post, in case you didn’t notice it.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69277/100-stoneground-whole-wheat-hokkaido-sourdough-milk-bread

 

I will also paste what he wrote here:

 

essentially have no discard if I plan well ahead and know how much starter I’ll need each week.  I try to make only enough starter so that I have only 5 g of starter left after my weekly baking.  I feed my starter only once per week generally speaking.  So let’s say I expect to bake twice and will need 20 g of starter in total for those two bakes and I have my projected 5 g of starter.  I will give it a 1:2:2 feed so 5 g of starter, 10 g of water and 10 g of whole rye.  I like to keep a 100% hydration starter and only use whole rye to feed it.  My experience has been that this keeps my starter robust and consistent.  I will then ferment this at 82°F until it is at peak and then refrigerate it pulling it out of the fridge only to build levains during the 7 days after feeding.  Regardless of how many days ago my starter was fed, I will use whatever amount I need without refreshing/feeding my starter as long as it was fed within the past 7 days.  So that is what I do on an ongoing basis and it has worked for me for quite some time now.

To get to this point where I don’t give my starter much thought, I fed my starter 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 and kept it out at room temperature or warmer for several days until it was able to rise 3-4 x for at least a few feedings.  At that point I felt it was healthy and active and then converted to my weekly feedings and refrigeration.

 

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

After mixing the dough and some folds over 2-3 hrs, I put the dough in the firdge for a few hours.  Then I chickened out and left it at room temp until the morning.  Many of the articles I read suggested fermentations up to 12 hrs and some said you can't do a retarded bulk fermentation.  This morning the dough looked, felt, and worked more like it was supposed to on any previous attempts, and the dough did have a dome in the container.   And I get nowhere in 2 1/2 hrs.  Maybe in 6 months with a more developed starter, or maybe white flour starters work faster than rye. 

I probably should have stated proofing at room temp for 1-2 hrs before going into the fridge.  We'll see how it comes out.

I have a 100% dark rye starter per "The Bread Baker".  I refresh once a week at 1:10:10 per that book if I'm not baking.  If I bake, I do 3 feedings 12 hrs apart.  The starter reliably increases by 2.5x in 12 hrs at room temp.

caryn's picture
caryn

I still think you can trust Hamelman. If I were you, I would follow his method exactly to see how it might work for you. So long as your starter is viable, I suggest starting with his “bulld” and timing accordingly to his directions,  if you can keep your environment at a temperature that he suggests. I own a proofer where you can set a temperature, and it seems to work well.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough with Whole Wheat.  I made 1/20 of his commercial batch:

500g flour (90% KAF bread flour and 10% KAF whole wheat); 15% prefermented in the levain, of which 20% was an all dark rye starter.

325g water (65%)

9g salt (1.9%)

1 hr autolyse (ok, fermentolyse) with the flour, water and levain before adding the salt.   Then about 12 hr bulk fermentation of which about 3 was retarded in a cold fridge before I chickened out and finished at room temp, 73 F.

Then about 8 hrs proofing in the fridge.

Photos: Vermont Sourdough w/ WW & long bulk fermentation

Nothing great by TFL standards but way better than any of my sourdough breads before.  Next time I would do the entire bulk ferment at room temp to a ~20% volume increase.  Then I would start the proof at room temp for an hr or so before going into the fridge.  The taste is a little bland; once I get the hang of oven spring I'll go beck to trying dough with rye  and WW for flavor.  

 

caryn's picture
caryn

Your breads looks great. I do still think if you follow Hamelman and do an overnight build with your starter, bulk ferment with two fold fo 2.5 hours and either proof at room temp for 1.5 to 2 hours or retard overnight, you should get good results. My starter isn’t super strong (doesn’t do much more than double), but my breads work fine using Hamelman’s methods. I think it is worth giving it a try anyway!

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Thanks for your gracious comments.

Maybe the reasons that Hamelman's 2.5 hr bulk ferment at 76 F did not work work for me are these:

  • Less than super active starter, ie, 100% rye with 3 feedings before mixing the levain, vs Hamelman's bread flour starter fed daily for years
  • Our kitchen temp is a pretty steady 73 F, lower than the DDT of 76 F and significantly lower than the ~80 F you often see recommended

Here's an interesting article from the Sourdough Journey website:

Here is a nice article on bulk fermentation from the Sourdough Journey website.  His YouTube channel has terrific content, very thorough and detailed if less lively than say The Bread Code.  

Sourdough Journey Bulk-O-Matic

The guidelines are based on basic Tartine bread, and are pretty close to most of the formulas in the Bread levain chapter.  It's probably worth trying bulk fermentation in the oven with the light on, while watching the temp with my old remote reading BBQ probe thermometer.  I'll aim for a 25% increase in volume and see how long it takes at ~80 F.  My yeasted doughs based on Hamelman usually double in an overnight retarded bulk fermentation.

I am sold on the overnight retarded final proofing.  I'll start at room temp for 1 - 1.5 hrs and then into the fridge.

caryn's picture
caryn

First, thank you for your info about the Sourdough Journey guy. It looks like he has done a lot of work and I plan to watch his videos. By the way, your first link did not work for me, so I just googled for the website and YouTube channel. I just want to make a point that that guy has been doing his sourdough work only for a few years and Hamelman has been doing this for years. That said, I always feel that you can learn from anyone who may have a fresh point of view. Benny, who I have linked for you in this thread, always uses a rye starter and it works great for him. Also, when you retard your shaped dough overnight in the refrigerator, it really should not be necessary to leave it at room temperature beforehand. Maybe, your long proofing times are causing over proofing? 

I think you owe it to yourself to follow Hamelman’s formula to the letter, adding some extra time to compensate for your cooler environment. Perhaps, you might want to invest in a proofer. I use mine for bulk fermentation and then for proofing if I am baking the same day. I set the temperature to whatever the recipe states as the target temperature. The thing is years ago, I somehow thought that sourdough baking was something really hard to do, and then when it finally worked , it became really easy. Some of the books suggest that you have to treat your starter as a pet, and I learned otherwise from Fresh Loaf, Hamelman and others. 

 I hope that you will soon just find the process fun and interesting and not so frustrating.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

Some of my pre-sourdough breads, mostly from Hamelman, sometimes with adaptations to increase the WW %

Yeasted Breads

I think my biggest sourdough problem was inadequate bulk fermentation due to the low temp (73 F?).  I'll try proofing around 78 - 79F and see if I get close to Hamelman's times for a ~30% volume increase.  

Then, about 1 hr room temp proofing and into the fridge overnight.

caryn's picture
caryn

I think you expressed so well what many of us on this forum have been saying- that Bittman’s whole wheat sourdough method is not terribly reliable. I, too, have been a follower of him for years. I think he has had a good, down-to-earth way with cooking, explaining that there are a lot of ways to produce good food. I think, though, in his  hurry to spread the message that home bakers can produce good whole grain bread, he failed to discuss the pitfalls. I hope you do write to him and share these discussions with him. It would be useful to get his reaction and further thoughts.

caryn's picture
caryn

Posted twice again!

mp1789's picture
mp1789

Thanks, AnnD, Caryn, and Louis for all of you helpful tips and encouragement.  I am intrigued by the longer bulk fermentation ideas mentioned by Louis and the emphasis on flexibility in the book.  I will give it a try again tomorrow with (1) 'Superstarter step, (2) slightly longer bulk fermentation, and (3) may work to shape it and tuck it more effectively before the final rest/rise & bake in the dutch oven.  Honestly, I've never had such a time baking sourdough bread; even the 'Longtrail rye' in Hammelmann with only a rye starter has double the oven-spring of this.  Someone on here called it a "tasty Frisbee" -- quite apt.  Will keep you posted.  thanks for the support!

annD's picture
annD

I think one of the problems Bittman ran into is that he created a book where all profits are on book sales. That leaves him no room to adapt the information and no ability to do a video, at least not until he no longer hopes to benefit from book sales. Absolutely it would be much more helpful to watch a video than read a book with a few static pictures. For this sort of adventure a blog with videos would have been much more useful, that's why they are so popular, but once he created a book that wasn't an option. It may be a book with all the promotions and tours helped get the world out, but we are all stuck with a method that needs more subtitles than he was able to get in the form of a book. One thing he does say, and he says this about all his non-bread recipes too, is that the recipe is flexible. Try adding more or less water, flour, time, etc. to make it work better for you. 

caryn's picture
caryn

I just watched The Bread Codes’s latest video. I highly recommend it!

https://youtu.be/msqU-ylXWUs

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

It is a great video but it left out one key item - the temp for the bulk fermentation. Bread Code 8 - 10 hrs contrasts with Hamelman/Tartine 2.5 - 4 hrs.  

My first thought was the temp, but then I realized that Hamelman & Sourdough Journey/Tartine use a 12 hr levain and then a shorter bulk fermentation  to about 30% volume increase after mixing the final dough.  Bread Code goes right to the final dough and 8-12 hrs with nearly 100% volume increase (doubling).    

Apparently both methods work with slightly more time needed for the levain.  I'm sure there is a flavor difference and maybe different extensibility.  It's probably analogous to using a poolish vs a straight dough with yeasted bread.  

I bet some of Hamelman's preference for preferments (yeasted or sourdough) comes from production scheduling in a commercial bakery (as well as a flavor preference).

 

caryn's picture
caryn

Yes, I am sure you are right. Hamelman uses a long build with the starter while Bread Code does it all at once, allowing all of the bread dough to bulk ferment for longer. I have done both and each method seems to work fine. As for temperature of the bulk ferment, Bread Code in other videos has discussed the affect of temperature on the process. He even developed a table for time and temperature that I can find for you, if you like. His main point is the  bulk fermentation is a function of time and temperature and you can yield good results so long as you observe when the fermentation is done. That is why he puts some dough in a small tube, so you can observe the rise. Apparently, you can aim from anything from 25% to almost doubled. I am not sure he has an exact number. He may have discussed this in other videos. Note, that he immediately bakes the loaf that was refrigerated overnight. That’s what I almost always do.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I tried following Hamelman as closely as I could.  There really is a big difference between bulk fermenting at 73℉ and 76 F.  I kept the dough warm in the oven with the light on and off as needed and the timing matched those in the book pretty well

Vermont Sourdough w/ WW in San Diego

I was delighted with the grigne but on closer inspection it looks as if I need to build better dough strength to reduce spreading, even with an overnight proof in the fridge after an hour at room temp.

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

After reading a bunch of web pages and watching videos on sourdough bulk fermentation I think I finally understand why there is a 12 hr faction with volume doubling and a 3 hr faction with a 30% increase.  It's analogous to straight dough vs a preferment with yeasted doughs.

  • Straight Dough, Commercial or Natural Yeast.  If you go straight to the final dough a sourdough culture will take ~12 hrs at room temp to get through wat is essentially a very big feeding, but you can get close to doubling the volume, not unlike refreshing a starter  
  • Preferment - Poolish, Biga, Pate Fermentee, or Sourdough Levain - Building a levain first is a lot like making a poolish.  It ferments overnight, and when included in the final dough it speeds up bulk fermentation because the prefermented flour ha s head start.  That's why levain formulas have 3-4 hr bulk fermentations at warm room temp, which, with natural yeasts results in about 30% volume increase.  

At least in theory, preferments like a poolish or levain favor the bacteria, adding flavor.  And the acid they creates also nibbles away at the gluten which improves extensibility.  And you can use it in your production schedule to do the long preferment overnight with less sitting around time during the bulk ferment. the next day.   

mp1789's picture
mp1789

Hi, all, i am going to watch this Bread Code video right now.  Thanks for recommending it.  

So, since last i wrote, i ventured back into the 100% WW Bittman loaf; however, i watched Claire Saffitz's (sp?) (NYTimes) standard sourdough video on YouTube and did a few other things.  (1) added the superstater step, (2) added a 1-hour autolyse (sp?) of the flour & water alone,  (3) added the salt as part of a folding, (4) 3-hour bulk fermentation, folding every 30 mins, (4) BROKE OUT THE BANNETON! (5) after 1 1/2 rise in the banneton, rested it in the fridge to try to stiffen it up.  After ALL of that, it still rose minimally, though more than my first couple of tries - about 2.5 to scant-3 inch rise.  The dough was delightful, pillowy, billowing and soft - as it looked in Claire's video and as it looks when i do an 85% white flour & sourdough Poillaine (sp?) style - just before i placed it (as gently as a mother placing her infant in a warm bath) in the Dutch oven, (carefully) raced it to the cold oven and started the bake.  It has a lovely crumb structure but not an impressive rise.   

I was speaking to a friend of mine who owns a great bakery in Duxbury MA (My Little Bakery, if you are interested), and he just said "Yeah, you can't expect a spectacular rise with 100% WW and 100% WW starter.  The bread will taste great, but it's not a show stopper.").  Then i listened to Bittman and the co-author on a podcast, and while they both elegized the taste of the breads in the book and the ease, there was definitely a vibe of "here is something great-tasting that you can make at home," not something that you can make, then give as Holiday gifts, bring to dinner parties, and you know, generally make your bread bones on it.  

So all this to say, i think 'that's all she wrote' on this 100% WW sourdough boule.  Not a great rise, but pretty easy and tastes good.

I am on to the co-author's WW sandwich loaf in the book next, using all the changes above.  I think/hope that putting it in a loaf pan will prevent excessive spreading and flatness of the Bittman bread. 

(sorry for all the spelling errors - no time to go look up the proper spellings!)

caryn's picture
caryn

It is interesting that you felt it necessary to add so many steps to Bittman’s technique, maybe just proving that his method is a bit too simple to work constantly well!

mp1789's picture
mp1789

that's my conclusion as well.  

I do love the starter.  I like that there is not as much waste as with some other starters that need regular feedings.  The starter performs well.  I am trying the WW sandwich bread now, but including superstarter, autolyse, and using 100g KAF bread flour.  

mp1789's picture
mp1789

Hi, all, i have moved on from the basic Bittman bread recipe, because despite all efforts, the rise was just too lackluster, no matter how flexible or simple the recipe.

But, I am here to report that I made Kerri's sandwich bread, and it was fantastic.  I did add an autolyse step with the flour and water, a 3-hour bulk ferment, and a 1+-hour proof before baking.  I doused it with a bit of butter out of the oven.  Very good, hearty, satisfying bread, but nice and soft with a lovely crumb structure.  Highly recommend it.

caryn's picture
caryn

It looks like the authors of the book could learn from you! I think you added the steps that they left out by their attempting to streamline the process. I think with yeast (sourdough or  packaged) breads, you need to allow for sufficient time for the process to work.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

As of April 18, 2022.

This is not a recommendation, just a heads-up for anyone who might want to get a $2 ebook to see if it would be worth spending  more for the hardcopy.

https://www.amazon.com/Bittman-Bread-No-Knead-Whole-Grain-Baking-ebook/dp/B08NWT2VC5/

Free sample, in Kindle format, is also available.

 

louiscohen's picture
louiscohen

I could never make it work, although I am also struggling with more conventional techniques, trying to get mixing, bulk fermentation, and proofing right.

If you are already baking sourdough bread, I wouldn't bother with it.  If you want to try sourdough, maybe it's worth $2.

caryn's picture
caryn

I found that that Bittman’s method was rather imperfect, but for $2 I am happy to have it in my library! Thank you idaveindy.

Kuiper11's picture
Kuiper11

So I did a variation on the Bittman bread with some new wheat flour I ordered from Community Grains and it was a very good tasting bread, still had some nice sour flavor, but like many of my breads, it didn't rise nearly as high as I'd like. I cook in a Lodge Dutch oven, but my oven is in the process of dying a slow death. Doesn't heat up quite to 450 and I have to use a thermometer that I keep in the oven to monitor the temp. Every time my second loaf if flatter than the first, not sure why. 

I get a good crumb with my non wheat breads but not so much with the wheat. But I will make this version again as the flavor was great, would like it to be a little more visually appealing so any advice is appreciated.

 

 

 

caryn's picture
caryn

Kuper11- I have put on hold Bittman’s  method for quite some time, but after making a lot of Hammelman’s recipes recently, I feel that the most important element for baking sourdough bread is making sure your starter is robust. I would definitely allow a good amount of time for the fed starter to work. Then you have a better chance of producing bread with a greater oven spring. My starter rarely does not more than double after about 6 to 8 hours, but it must be enough to levain the sourdough breads that I have been making since they usually come out well.

Here’s a link to my bread blog:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70118/my-bread-log