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Can't get second rise to finish where I want without overproofing

Kooky's picture
Kooky

Can't get second rise to finish where I want without overproofing

I have been having trouble with this for a few weeks now. I don't exactly understand what variable to change.

So far I've made a single 100% whole grain loaf that had a domed top. All my others thus far have come out flat. For the one loaf I used the poke test and stuck it in the oven far sooner than I usually do, size wise, it was tiny. I prefer to make it dome 1 inch above the rim of my pan before I put it in the oven. The problem is that by that time it's always overproofed. Today I used 1 1/2 tsp yeast (6g) at a very sticky ~82% hydration, and the same thing happened even though the rise time was longer than normal due to the decreased yeast.

What is going on here? Is there a correlation between readiness and size? Which would mean no matter how I adjusted the yeast, the stages of proof size will always remain the same? This is the part I cannot understand. 

How do I get a larger final rise without overproofing? It seems like no matter what I adjust, once I get the size I want after the final rise the dough is always over proofed and comes out flat.

I made this recipe often with King Arthur bread flour, a few times I forgot a timer and the dough ballooned nearly 3+ inches above the rim after putting it in the oven. Are my expectations of 100% WW off? I just can't fathom that I would need more flour to get the 1 inch dome I previously mentioned. I'm hoping I'm just overlooking something simple.

 

Lower hydration perhaps next? I did a 1 hour autolyse and the dough was still very wet after kneading for 10 minutes in my Ankarsrum.

 

Edit: I completely forgot to pinch off a small piece of the dough into a straight/clear container as a gauge to its readiness... But it still wouldn't necessarily solve my conundrum... 

Abe's picture
Abe

What is the recipe and what size loaf pan are you using? 

An all bread flour dough can be left to just under double. The more wholegrain one uses the less it should be left to rise for the final proof so the more you'll wish to fill the pan. So if you wish for a wholegrain dough to crest the top and have good oven spring you'll want it about 70% full give or take.

If you half fill a loaf pan with a 100% wholegrain dough then wait for the dough to crest the top then it's over done and will collapse, hence the flat top. 

Might take some trial and error but fill the loaf pan more. 

Kooky's picture
Kooky

Today I used:

515g whole wheat flour

~405g water + a little olive oil

6g yeast (1 1/2 tsp)

11g salt

1 hour autolyse with water only then knead for 10 minutes. I played first/second rise by ear. Baked at 460F with lid on for 35 minutes.

This recipe provides what I feel is a perfected loaf when using King Arthur bread flour. When I use KA flour and it domes 1 inch over the rim it doesn't fall flat. However with my whole wheat, once it domes 1 inch, it's too late. I cannot figure out what to do to increase final size and prevent overproofing. I use the Emile Henry loaf pan which makes about a 1.5lb loaf.

I have had no problem with this recipe even though the resultant loaf is about 1.9lbs. I guess tomorrow I'll decrease the hydration a bit to make the dough less sticky, and increase autolyse, hopefully that will help the gluten structure.

Abe's picture
Abe

Is 680g and that's probably for bread flour as well. 

You have used 515g of whole wheat flour. 

I'm convinced the issue is dough size. 

Try increasing your recipe for whole wheat by about 1.4 and see if that helps. 

  • 721g whole wheat flour
  • 567g water + some oil
  • 8.4g yeast
  • 15.4g salt (I think you can drop that to 13-14g; still in good range and healthier)

Makes sense the bread flour works but more dough will be needed for the same pan if using whole wheat.

Kooky's picture
Kooky

Thanks, I will give it a shot tomorrow. This was my last thought and I was hoping it just wasn't so, but I guess to get the same size loaf with 100% WW I just have to use more flour! I will mill the flour soon to let it sit overnight.

 

Regards

Abe's picture
Abe

1.5lb loaf or 1.5lb of flour? 

Did you edit your comment from 'flour' to 'loaf'? 

Can you send a link for the pan? 

Yes, basically a whole wheat should not rise as much as a bread flour dough before being baked. So best way to get the same level of rise and final loaf one needs to fill the pan more. It may take some getting used to. See how the above adjustment goes. You might need to make more adjustments but i'm sure it'll be a step in the right direction.

Best of luck. 

Kooky's picture
Kooky

Yes I edited because I "misspoke" after further research. 

My recipe usually turns out like the picture with the loaf containing granola on top... Not currently though!

https://www.emilehenryusa.com/products/bread-loaf-baker

Abe's picture
Abe

I've had a change of mind now i've seen the emile henry baker. The recipes aren't for a lot of flour averaging 420g. Even the whole -wheat has 420g. Granted it's 300g whole wheat and 120g bread flour but that wouldn't translate into 721g whole-wheat. I think you're just waiting for too much of a rise before baking. Try erring on the side of caution and baking earlier. Here is a sample recipe: 

Build a recipe around this one which comes with the baker. Use it as a template. 

Kooky's picture
Kooky

My rise times definitely weren’t 1 hour then 40 minutes. More like 50 minutes tthen  20 minutes and by then it was overproofed at 1 and 1/2 tsp yeast. I knew better this time and I even started the oven during first rise. Still didn’t work. 

I’m going to put a pinch of the dough in a straight walled shot glass to gauge the doubling next time. 

Abe's picture
Abe

500g whole wheat at 80% hydration and 2% salt would be a good start. Their yeast amount is quite high as 7g is within normal range I would have thought.

  • 500g whole wheat
  • 400g water
  • 10g salt
  • 7g dried yeast

Now there are many ways to tackle the dough. One way would be to hold back a little water for the yeast in the final dough. Do a saltolyse with the flour, water and salt overnight. Then activate the yeast in the little water kept behind and knead it into the dough till full gluten formation. Allow to bulk ferment till double then shape and give it 30-40 minutes for final proof and bake. 

Or you could do a quicker autolyse on the day with just the flour and water, then add the salt and yeast etc. 

Just watch that final rise. When in doubt better slightly under than over proofed. 

Kooky's picture
Kooky

Well now that recipe is almost identical to the recipe I did today!

Strangely enough I based the original recipe (at least it and the iterations I've tried) off of the Emile Henry "Loaf with Herbs". It uses this clay loaf pan and calls for a 20 minute initial rise, followed by 40 minutes of rise. I baked that loaf no problem first try with bread flour. I think I'm switching to 70% hydration. I need the dough to be strong enough when it hits the size I want, I'm not sure the liquid is helping it because it's very sticky still.

However at room temperature with 1 hour autolyse I just can't see the 20 minute initial rise doing very much for the fresh whole wheat, it's too cold for the yeast to be happy (74F). As I said from now on I will be utilizing that shot glass with a bit of the fermenting dough to monitor both rises. I think that will help me gauge what's going on.

As per my original question, I guess the answer is no (aside from testing lower hydration tomorrow).. If I use less dough though, the loaf will be small enough for some dolls to use as a prop when it's time to go in! 

I'll give your above recipe a try tomorrow with the shot glass, lower the hydration a bit. 

 

Abe's picture
Abe

But is the autolyse purely flour and water or is the yeast included? If it is included then perhaps miss it out and knead it in (activated in a little water) after the autolyse. Then after kneading till full gluten formation go into the bulk ferment. It can double in the bulk but really go easy on the final proof. 

Best of luck. Looking forward to results. 

P.s. oh yeah you're correct. Very close to your recipe. 

Kooky's picture
Kooky

It's just the flour and about 95% of the water, I think I held back 25g plus the oil. 

Thanks again everyone, will see how this goes. Freshly milled whole grains have just been so tricky for my perfect loaf.

One domed loaf so far, but a bit too small.

phaz's picture
phaz

What Abe said about more dough, or try dropping the water amount. Enjoy! 

DoughKnob's picture
DoughKnob

Kooky - it is entirely possible to bake a loaf of 100% whole wheat bread with a nice dome and reasonably soft crumb. It will never be as light and fluffy as if made with white flour, but it can be very satisfactory.

There are several things that might be helpful regarding your current difficulties.

To get a better handle on proofing, I like to use Cambro translucent round containers to proof in. 4qt size for one loaf, 6qt for two loaves.  You can easily keep track of the rise with these, and I also use them to weigh water and grain for milling. I try to catch the dough a little before it has fully doubled for the bulk ferment.

https://www.amazon.com/Cambro-RFS4PP190-Polypropylene-Storage-Container/dp/B001E0FNMK/ref=asc_df_B001E0FNMK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=1948592...

As for the dome on your loaves, there could be several factors in play. I'm in the "you need more dough" camp. I use a pullman pan with a volume of 2 quarts.  Your pan holds 2.1 quarts,  nearly the same volume.  For this size pan I use 675g of flour for a loaf. It fills the pan to about 2/3, and I let it rise so the dome is just peeking out of the pan, so just about half again it's original size, not doubled. I don't go overboard when degassing and panning, try to preserve some of the CO2 in the dough so the yeast doesn't have to work too hard to reinflate. I just measured a loaf I baked today, and the oven spring amounted to about 2" of additional height. This is with fresh ground, hard white spring wheat.

My pullman pan (by USA Pans) is 9x4x4", with square sides. Your pan is quite a bit wider, which puts more stress on the dough to maintain a dome. Think of a bridge over a river. The wider the river, the stronger the bridge has to be to hold itself up. It seems that 100% whole grain breads do better in narrow pans which offer more side support to hold up the heavier, denser dough. My loaves weigh about 2.5 pounds each, considerably more than a white flour loaf would weigh. They are not "bricks", just not as light and fluffy as with white flour. So at least for whole grains, you might be happier with the results from a narrower pan, if cutting the proofing down doesn't provide the results you are looking for. The width of the pan is even more important as the hydration level rises.

Another possibility, though the least likely, is that your wheat might not be up to snuff. Hard spring wheat (white or red) has the most gluten and produces more rise than hard winter wheat,  soft spring wheat has even less gluten and is more suitable for pastries.

The major flour mills are able to maintain consistent quality and working properties by doing a lot of testing of the grain they use. When we buy wheat berries, there is more chance for variation in performance than the mills would provide.  May I ask what type of wheat berries you are using?

Here are a couple of pics from today's bake, just before going into the oven, and after.  Fresh ground white spring whole wheat (Prairie Gold from Wheat Montana) , about 70% hydration, 675 g of flour, sourdough/yeast hybrid (my starter is young). kitchen temp was about 72 F, bulk rise about 1.5 hours, forgot to note the time when it went into the oven, but I think it was about 40 minutes or so for the final proof. I probably should have scored the top. I haven't cut into it yet, but I expect a fairly open, even sandwich crumb.

Dan

 

DoughKnob's picture
DoughKnob

Here is a pic of the crumb, turns out it could have risen another 5 or 10 minutes, as it's a little tighter than usual.

Dan

DoughKnob's picture
DoughKnob

Here is a pic of the crumb, turns out it could have risen another 5 or 10 minutes, as it's a little tighter than usual.

Dan

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I recently made Debra Wink's 100% Whole-Wheat Sandwich Bread. I finally got it right on the 4th attempt. I made a 800-gram dough into a 330mm / 13" Pullman. It has a wonderful flavour and nice and light as a sandwich loaf should be.

100% Whole Wheat Sandwich Loaf - 4th Attempt | The Fresh Loaf

You'll need to scroll down a bit to see the crumb shot.

My whole-wheat flour was too week at 10.8% protein. DB recommends 16 - 17%. Try to get at least 14%.
The key learnings were:

Milk, egg and water together are the total hydration    
 Weigh the milk and egg and enough water to make up   
 to 75% - 375-400 grams (solves the problem of egg size)  
Process three keys:       
 Develop gluten before adding oil     
 Give the dough two full rises in bulk instead of just one  
 

Keep the dough cool to cold for the majority of fermentation (no higher that 23C)

The 1st stage of the bulk fermentation was in refrigerator, 12 hours, followed by up to 2 hours cool room temperature. Then degas and fold and let rise at cool room temperature 3 to 5 hours. The final proof in the Pullman was 3 hours at 22 C.