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Italian 00 flour and machine mixing

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Italian 00 flour and machine mixing

On the weekend I tried making Niko Romito's potato and semolina bread. The one Alfanso suggested in the no comfort community bake ;-)

My flour was Italian 00 flour - this one - which is around 10.7% protein (the packet says it is like a T45), together with some semolina and some potato. This flour did not react well to my machine mixer.

I had a fairly strong flour after autolyse, and the hydration was lower than his recipe, around 62%. I thought to develop some gluten strength in the mixer, but it seemed to just result in a soupy gloop and all of the initial elasticity was completely lost. Gave it 10 minutes, keeping the speed slow,  but could see the puddling become even more pronounced, and rather than seeing a clean bowl it just got more and more puddly.

I actually repeated this with another batch (call me determined, or stupid) and after 1 minute, on the very lowest speed, I could see that something bad was happening to the gluten and it was breaking down again, just like the first time.

Is this a known problem with these sort of Italian flours?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Jon, I’m not familiar with your formula, but I cam say that your flour is weak. The “W” number indicates the strength of Italian flours. The specs shoe W = 160.

You may want to try a stronger flour.

Maybe trying skipping or shortening the autolyse and mixing by hand using a no-knead method or something similar. Let time develop the gluten and be gentle when handling. If you can pull it off the bread will probably taste outstanding.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

The flour used for that bread was this one: CAPITOLATO DI PRODOTTO (italieplein.nl)

W 220-240.

W 160 is unfit for bread!

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Thank you. I didn't know how to understand the W numbers, and was just looking at the percentage protein. Live and learn!

 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Thank you - that is good feedback. Now I know about W numbers, but the hard way!

I did have the thought to do something like a no knead too - since it had some nice initial strength after the autolyse. But now that I've read Mariana's reply below I'm going to try the complete opposite and work the gluten in the food processor, which is like the complete opposite of working the dough as little as possible!

GrainBrain's picture
GrainBrain

If you are adding the water all at once, that could be a factor. Try holding back 20% or so of the water until the dough has come together, then very slowly trickle in the remaining water. To me the puddling indicates the flour is not able to absorb water at the rate you are adding it. I would not say this is a problem with "Italian" flour, but 00 is very finely ground. It can absorb much higher amounts of water than you are using, but you need to experiment to discover the "rate" at which yours absorbs water.

JonJ's picture
JonJ

On my first attempt I actualy tried a bassinage, and had upped the hydration from around 62 to 68%, by small increments adding the water by hand!

And then, thinking this would behave like other doughs I've worked with I stupidly put it into the stand mixer and it went downhill from there.

mariana's picture
mariana

Jon, it's a good flour perfectly suitable for machine mixing. On its own. The problem is that it is on the softer side and should be used without admixtures that weaken it. Adding potatoes and semolina right away weakens its delicate gluten network and brings down the total bread flour protein per 100g even lower.

So it has nothing to do with the machine mixing. You won't be able to mix/knead that blend of flour with semolina and potatoes by hand either. Maybe a no-knead approach would work, I don't know. 

In one place they say that it milled from WHEAT with W higher than 160, and at the end of the paragraph they insist that this particular FLOUR Granoro Type "00" Flour has W values between 180 and 200 which is ideal for European breads. Apparently, Niko used slightly stronger flour for his potato and semolina bread. His flour with W 220-240 is not that strong either. Compare that to North American all-purpose flours with W around 400, huge difference.

Maybe the difference is in the method of mixing? 

When I tried to knead dough with that flour immediately, I got the same result as you. There was no gluten formation and gluten development. My dough looked like that

I had to adjust my method of mixing and kneading and got perfect dough development and perfect loaves form it. Simply the best.  

The method that worked for me with that flour was double hydration with 30 min cold rest in between hydrations. 

I first mixed rather stiff dough. 1 min of kneading on high speed. 

Refrigerated for 30min for the gluten to form and then kneaded for 1 min 30 sec on high speed to develop gluten. At the end of kneading I added ice to adjust dough consistency to soft. 

 Fully kneaded dough. 

Out of the food processor: 

Made into a ball to check its gluten development (bubbles on the surface, the dough is shiny, not sticky to touch)

After fermentation

So, yes, not only machine mixing with Italian 00 flour is possible, even very intense mixing is OK with very well developed gluten and fine soft crumb. So far, I have never met an Italian flour that I didn't like. Italian flours are very nice flours and very machine mixable. 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

That is very interesting knowledge, thank you for teaching me about it. I've seen your food processor gluten development described somewhere else on this site previously, but now that I'm looking for it I can't find it!

I'm definitely going to try your method, this sort of experimentation is right up my alley. Might even make my next bread this way!

I've got a few questions about the method:

  1. The initial mix of the dough is done in the food processor. So, not okay to use a regular stand mixer with a paddle here, this must be done on high speed, right?
  2. The blade used in the food processor is not sharp, otherwise it would cut the dough up?
  3. Why do we chill the dough during the autolyse and add ice?
  4. Is the dough mixed all in one, or is the levain and/or salt added separately? I'm assuming a levain is involved and not IDY, but might be wrong.
  5. What hydration ballpark would you recommend to start with, and is it even possible to estimate the final hydration if the method is to add ice cubes, or is weighing the ice part of how you work out how much ice to use the following time?
  6. From the photos it looks like the dough is strong enough to laminate, is that true?
mariana's picture
mariana

Jon, I only used food processor to show gluten development because it is fast. Its blade rotates 800rpm. You can do the same in any other machine: bread machine, mixer, or by hand or by using a rolling pin to 'stretch and fold' dough creating hundreds of layers of gluten with air trapped in between (the essence of kneading).

What's important is the principle: first blend to homogeneity and let gluten form (stiff dough, 30 min in cold rest) and then develop it. 

The initial mix of the dough is done in the food processor. So, not okay to use a regular stand mixer with a paddle here, this must be done on high speed, right?

I did it in the food processor only because I didn't have my mixer nearby. Otherwise, I would use my Bosch Compact. It blends any dough to homogeneity quickly as well. I never use paddle. Only hook. Yes, high speed is ok if your mixer can handle bread dough. 

The blade used in the food processor is not sharp, otherwise it would cut the dough up?

The blade is sharp. It chops meat, veggies, etc. It has to cut the dough up (even though it really doesn't, it just drags it, stretches it out). That's the essence of dough mixing and kneading in food processor. 

Why do we chill the dough during the autolyse and add ice?

There is no autolyse. There is cold rest to let gluten form. Gluten forms best at cold temperatures, below 20C whereas autolyse is best at warm temperatures for enzymes to break down both gluten and starches. Yet when we knead, especially in food processor, dough temperature rises all the way up to 30-40C. So, after mixing it to homogeneity for a minute the dough is warm and needs to rest refrigerated to help gluten form. Then, when I kneaded it for 1 min 15sec to develop gluten, it got hot again and I added iced to incorporate more water and bring down its temperature to DDT. 

Is the dough mixed all in one, or is the levain and/or salt added separately? I'm assuming a levain is involved and not IDY, but might be wrong.

This is double hydration method. The dough is mixed all in one except part of water is held up until later. The specific formula is irrelevant. Could be soda, yeast, sourdough, levain-sponge-poolish, or nothing at all. 

What hydration ballpark would you recommend to start with, and is it even possible to estimate the final hydration if the method is to add ice cubes, or is weighing the ice part of how you work out how much ice to use the following time?

Hydration is irrelevant (or relative I should say). It depends on how dry and how strong your flour is. If your flour is 15% moisture and mine is 5% moisture, then 60% hydration would mean different things for us. For you at 60% hydration it would be a super soft dough and for me - super stiff.

So watch dough consistency, not hydration numbers. If you knead in food processor, add ice cubes one by one until you reach the desired dough consistency. And notice the total amount of water that went into your dough, write it down, so that you know next time. 

From the photos it looks like the dough is strong enough to laminate, is that true?

Of course. It is strong for anything and everything you would want to do with your dough. It's a normal dough in every respect. The trick is to give it time after mixing to homogeneity, so that its gluten could form. That is the difference between European wheat and North American wheat and flours from them. European flours need time after initial mixing to homogeneity, at least 30 min rest for their gluten to form and only then you can start kneading, laminating, etc. If there is no gluten there is nothing to laminate, n'est ce pas? 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Merci pour tous les détails. You've been very kind taking the time to explain, replete with all the scientific information and even answered my dumb lamination question. It is very much appreciated.

I'm off to experiment and will eventually report back.

JonJ's picture
JonJ

I got to about 30 seconds of mixing with a 60% hydration dough (450g flour + 270g water) made with that W160 Italian flour and started to get black smoke coming out of my food processor! Luckily it still works (does smell like bad incense), but it did make me realize that I can't be too cowboy with the food processor.

Is it necessary to have a beefy food processor for this? Or, I guess I could give it 10 seconds then leave to rest for a minute, and do that 9 times. Or do much smaller amounts, not sure if I could make it less stiff than the above!

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi Jon, 

Sorry, but that white flour has W of 200, not 160. It says so on the website. The wheat from which it is milled, i.e the whole grain, has W of at least 160.

I had pretty much the same experience when I started baking bread in my own kitchen (i.e. not in the restaurant where we have powerful equipment, but at home) - besides dedicated bread machines very few brands offer something that works for kneading bread dough without rising the price of the loaf and importing tools from Europe. Common brands of mixers and food processors simply die, cannot handle the simplest of tasks of blending bread dough ingredients to homogeneity or developing gluten. 

I found that besides bread machines only a couple of mixer brands and ONE food processor brand can handle bread dough. Mixers are Bosch (I have the cheap and small one, Bosch Compact, it handles up to 2 lbs flour effortlessly, both rye and wheat) and Ankarsrum (expensive right now, it was not before). And food processors are 14 or 16 cup Cuisinart models.  Bosch Compact mixer and 14 cup Cuisinart Custom food processor sell for less than $200, which I find acceptable for bread. I don't like bread to be too expensive because of the cost of the machinery. Bread machines would handle both relatively stiff dough and double hydration approach with 0.5-1 lb flour, they sell for $5-10 in second hand stores, even the best of the best Japanese models.

KA food processor handled dough very well but broke quickly, twice, so I repaired it twice and then gifted it to someone who doesn't bake. Recommended by the author of 'The Best Bread Ever" Braun was so bad, so flimsy, it is not even worthy of mentioning. Cuisinart is the best, unbreakable, eternal, handles any bread dough like a champ.