The Fresh Loaf

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1940 Borodinsky

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

1940 Borodinsky

Some time ago I ordered the real (Ukrainian) red rye malt through eBay. It's been a few weeks, and I finally got to use it, and of course I started with a Borodinsky. I used the Rus Brot adaptation of the 1940 recipe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_p7IihoZs I followed it as closely as possible, with just minor time adjustments to fit my schedule, and I had to mix (extra strong) bread flour and WW flout to approximate the Russian grade II flour (I guess it's same as first clear flour maybe? or high extraction flour?)

Anyway, everything went just as expected, dough was not particularly sticky, and was surprisingly easy to shape in the end. Proofed up like a balloon. Baked on a steel, I used semolina on the peel to load the loaf instead of rye bran (need to use up that non-durum semolina I got the the Indo-Pakistani shop!). Semolina worked well, clearly toasted up during the bake, but didn't burn. I was worried the bottom of the loaf would burn on steel without the light insulation of baking paper, and it's definitely on the darker end and very chewy, it's not burnt.


The bread is delicious! Less of a coriander flavour that I am used to, but more malty. The red rye malt certainly adds great flavour and colour!

The one weird thing is that soon after applying the corns starch glaze the crust got some strange bubbles, does anyone have any ideas? Very obvious here, when the bread is still hot:

Did the liquid batter I applied before baking bake unevenly, or something like that? It's pretty clear to me it's the top layer of wheat crust peeling off...

Comments

harum's picture
harum

Great job!  The crumb looks uniform and well fermented and baked!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! I'm really pleased with the crumb for an 85% whole rye loaf. Very nice texture.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

That looks really good Ilya.  So uniform in shape and crumb!  Hope it tastes as good as it looks!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! The shaping was surprisingly easy, and the dough was very pleasant to work with at that stage. Amazingly not sticky.

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Ilya, this looks like a great bake.  Earlier today I made an attempt with a recipe for a Lithuanian bread that is fairly similar to a Borodinsky.  The dough is more of a batter than I expected, but I was still able to push it around with wet hands.  Shaping, however, was not something I could do.  Instead I ended up pushing the blob of dough into a somewhat cylindrical form.

My questions for you are whether you used any flour to help in handling the dough during the shaping process?  Did you proof it in a banneton?  Do you have any tips for shaping a dough of this consistency?

Happy baking.

Ted

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Hi Ted - my advice is that the dough should not resemble batter is any sense of the word. For a free standing hearth rye bread the dough should not be wet. If you check out the video I shared in the post you'll see how it's done in detail! It's very helpful.

Shaping is done there, and the way I do it, with flour. But wet shaping with water is also possible. Proofing can be done in some sort of long basket/form, or on a couche.

 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Ilya, thanks for your reply.  Today I watched the video you posted as well as a link supplied by Yippee to Rus Brot's video using tins.  I also took notes that I will organize and use for a bake.

When I referred to "more batter like" I meant that the dough lacked structure like a dough with strong gluten.  After watching the two videos, I realize that my dough was exactly like his.  It is just that Stan Ginsberg's comment about using the KitchenAid mixer on 2 for 6-8 minutes to achieve a stiff dough that leaves the sides of the bowl really threw me.  What I should have done was use a dough scraper and my hand to mix the dough and perhaps a hand mixer.  I wonder how he managed to get a stand mixer to work with his dough.

Also, I think that shaping this type of dough with a lot of flour on the work surface is better than trying to use water.  That will be part of my next attempt as will be a cloth lined loaf pan for the proofing period (my dough spread a lot due to the extensibility of this dough, and the resulting loaf is a low profile -- it will not be sliced until sometime tomorrow afternoon, so I don't yet know what the crumb looks like or the bread tastes like).

Anyway, you and Yippee and others have inspired me to go straight to a Borodinsky.  Now I need to find some malt extract (I got the red rye malt from eBay).

Happy baking.

Ted

Benito's picture
Benito

That loaf looks really inviting Ilya, I bet it tastes really amazing, great bake.  As far as the bumps, do you think there were small holes in the crust that were leaking steam causing the glaze to blister?

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Benny! Must have been something like that, they definitely puffed up as if with steam from inside. But it's clearly not just the cornstarch glaze that did it (since than the bubbles would have no colour, since cornstarch glaze is not baked). So not sure why the wheat crust would separate from the loaf so easily...

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Ooh, that's good!

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you!

albacore's picture
albacore

Nice bake Ilya! Regarding the bubbles, what was the recipe for your cornstarch glaze? I used 1 tspn in 150ml water and cooked it till clear. I also found loaf appearance was better if I put the loaf back in the switched off oven for 5 minutes.

And did you brush on the flour paste coat before baking?  1tbs in 50ml water.

 

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Lance!

I used approximately half Tbsp cornstarch in half cup of water. So I guess a little more concentrated than yours. I think I saw this ratio on Rus Brot's recipe or website. But I think that doesn't really matter, as long it's clearly gelatinized?

Yeah, I did brush on the flour paste, I didn't measure how much flour and water I used though - followed Rus Brot's direction for desired consistency (thick kefir or liquidy sour cream - a very Russian way to define batter consistency :) ). And you can see the consistency in the video.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Old post, sorry to resurrect but I'm working on breads with these types of glossy finishes and wanted to get some thoughts.  I've used three things:  From RusBrot, the reserved 30 grams dough w/ 25 mgs water to make what looks like a kind of thicker whitewash that proofs along with the loaves.  It is then painted on prior to the bake.  I must have missed the cornstarch method from him because this is the only "pre-bake" glaze I've seen.  He then prepares a heated potato-starch slurry that he paints on after baking.

Brotdoc, among others, makes a corn-starch slurry, painted on before the bake, and finishes post-bake simply with water spray.  I'm not getting a satisfactory "glanz" or shine using this method.  He and others, however, do.  From the German community, someone showed me her before and after Oberländer Mischbrot:

Which I find stunning.  Any thoughts?

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

RusBrot does a flour paste pre-bake and does a cornstarch paint post-bake.  What I found works best for me (after some experimentation) is to mix about 1 Tbsp of flour with 35-50 ml of water for the flour paste (somewhat thick, but not too thick).  For the cornstarch gelatinization, I had to play around several times to achieve what I like, and this was definitely a bit challenging.  What I do is begin with 1 teaspoon of cornstarch mixed with about 35 g of room temperature water.  Mix that and then pour about 50-80 g of boiling water onto it and stir.  Then pour that mix into a saucepan and bring to a simmer while stirring a bit.  Let cool (which is when the mixture thickens a bit) and when the loaf comes out of the oven paint the gelatin onto the loaf.

Happy baking.

Ted

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Corn . Potato, this is where I got it from:

-from Ilya, I realize now that as they're both pure starches, it shouldn't make a difference.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Yeah the most commonly used starch in Russia is potato, but it makes no difference.

Here he suggests half tablespoon starch to half cup water btw (although the Russian measure for a cup is usually 200 ml).

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I'm not sure what you are asking exactly here, but the pre-bake liquid/pasty dough paint is not for the shine anyway, but rather to prevent the crust cracking. Then potato (or corn, no difference) starch paint after the bake adds the shine. I've never measured it and always get nice shiny crust. Using a small saucepan, add maybe a teaspoon of cornstarch and a splash of water to cover the bottom of the pan (idk maybe quarter cup?), and whisk/mix while heating until gelatinized. Paint onto the bread when it's still very hot just out of the oven, the heat of the loaf softens the paste so it's easy to paint it in a thin layer, and when cooled it makes the surface nice and shiny.

I've never tried applying corn starch before baking, and I am not sure what that would achieve. Spraying some water just before taking out of the oven would soften the crust (like cornstarch glaze does as well), and maybe add some shine, but not much.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks Ilya, you answered it.  Just looking for replicating the photo above, which is beautiful imo.  Not a thick "lacquer," just a nice "glanz."  Never thought of the pre-bake paint as a means to prevent cracking (do you literally mean "cracking," or "blowout?).  I've never seen the technique until coming to RusBrot's Borodinsky and there are so many of this style in the German world - Oberländer, Kassler, etc.  From what I can tell in terms of a perfectly smooth crust, they just work to perfect proofing, judging when it is perfectly ripe to bake, without bursting through in seams.  And I cannot explain it, only pass it along - I'e seen two means, one seems to be preferred by Brotdoc (corn starch slurry before, water spray after), or close to the reverse (hot water brush before, cornstarch slurry after - Lutz Geißler).

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Water brushing before bake can help achieve the same goal, actually. Since a thin layer of dough on the surface is liquefied. That was probably the original way, which would sort of happen naturally when the bread is shaped with water, not flour. I think the flour-water paste (or thinned down dough) is just a more powerful version of the same for the home baker.

Perfect proofing is important, and also handling of the loaves, and very hot temperature in the beginning of the bake. It's very easy to have high % rye hearth breads develop cracks, and hard to avoid them. And by cracks I mean the thing the places where crust cracks. I don't think it's possible to get blowouts with rye...

All that said, dough paste adds a "lacquer", not just "glanz", so if you want to avoid the former, perhaps don't use that.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK, thanks for the notes.  It seems to me, especially when he's using potato starch to line the Gärkorb then on turning out, brushing with hot water, that yes, he´s making perhaps a slightly thinner whitewash than the reserved dough - paste I saw in RusBrot´s video.

Blowout-cracks, I´m using the terms loosely or incorrectly.  I do mean cracks, but meaning large cracks or "chasms" or "blistering," as opposed to a "cracking" crust as can be seen on some nice wheat bakes actually.  

Maybe, "blistering." 

"Cracking"

Interestingly, actually pretty pleased with this one, a Dreierbrot:

This one is placed seam-up into a potato-starch dusted form, turned over, excess starch brushed away, brushed with hot water, baked, brushed with hot potato-starch slurry after baking.

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Just remembered the 3rd method, so far I've only seen it used by Geissler:

 

Work the dough round and place it in a proofing basket dusted with potato starch with the end facing up.

Leave the dough piece to mature for approx. 2 hours at room temperature (mature tight).

Turn the dough piece out onto the baking paper (close at the bottom), brush off the excess starch and brush the surface with boiling water. Then prick the surface with a punch roller (or wooden stick).

Bake immediately at 250°C falling to 220°C with steam. After 3-4 minutes release the steam completely. Bake for a total of about 90 minutes. After baking, rinse vigorously with water again.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Re: the bubbles - I guess your wheat flour paste might be too thick. My wheat paste has a flour to water ratio of 1:5-6 by weight, and the cornstarch glaze is 1:12.

Rus must be pleased to see your bread. Well done!

Yippee

 

P.S. How I wish I had known how to make red rye malt when I made this bread.  It makes the color of the bread so much more mysterious and attractive!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Right, thanks Yippee! I'm certainly pleased with the result :) next time will make the paste less thick then.

Have you found the rrm yet? I've made Borodinsky with crystal rye malt before, but rrm is certainly much more flavourful. The scald acquires such deep color and aroma, nothing like what I've made before.

suave's picture
suave

The glaze was too thick.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you!

jo_en's picture
jo_en

Thank you for showing this bake!!

It is certainly requires fortitude from the baker- the temps are over really long periods of time.

Would you add more coriander?

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

If you are really expecting prominent coriander, add more... It was quite mild here.

Fantastic bread, yes :)

jkandell's picture
jkandell

I'd say you nailed it. Looks pretty much like the photo of this recipe in the 1940 book 350 Breads from which RosBrot used for his video.Plotnikov P.M., Kolesnikov M.F. - 350 varieties of bakery products - 1940

 

borodin

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Sorry to resurrect an old thread; I have been gone a long time.  I hope all are well.  I'm pretty heavily involved with a German baking community and it's primary leader, Dr. Björn Hollensteiner, recently made what I think is a really nice example, also from Rus Brot.  Pretty remarkable to me, as this is the second loaf he made, learning from his first loaf a week or two ago.

 

Angebacken - Brotdoc - Borodinsky

 

I happened on this thread again and noted Ilya, your comment on the bubbling.  Exactly what happened on my last Borodinsky, and now that I re-read the thread, it makes perfect sense to me.  I really slathered it on.

 

Not expecting a response, unless Ilya you happened to see this.  My best to everyone.

albacore's picture
albacore

Good to see you you back, Paul! I feared you might have been MIA, as Alan/Alfanso would say.

And still baking :) 

Bjorn I believe is Brotdoc, so you are in good company!

Lance

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks Lance.  Good to see you.  Björn has become a good friend, and he hopes to visit with his wife next year.  Some time ago he kindly sent me a boatload of flour from Biomühle Eiling to try out, including their line of "extrafein" whole-flours, pretty remarkable stuff.  Bakes like bread flour, milled extremely finely. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Nice to see you back here! That looks like you resurrected my bread  - exactly the same issue! How was the crumb, how did you like the taste?

I also joined that FB group - the bread there looks beautiful!

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Wonderful to see you Ilya!  And so happy you're also a member over at Angebacken.  Feel pretty blessed to be a part of the group as well.  Awesome people and such extraordinary bakers.  Look forward to seeing you over there too!

I am very surprised by this loaf as I didn't have much hope.  Given our ambient temp over the last few weeks, I should have been more careful with the stages and the bread got away from me, overproofed.  But shocked, because the crumb came out great, if more dense than I like, not any issue with gumminess or undercooked strata, wonderfully flavorful.  I think it's a tip of the hat to Rus Brot's sharing so much.  I want to try it again, and also try the recent one by Björn (did you see it?).  Hadn't known of the 1939 Auerman one before seeing Björn´s but it would be nice to compare them (first I have to come up with a repeatedly decent 1940!).