The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Something odd going on

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Something odd going on

Hi
Apart from the odd 'fancy' bread I bake at least 3 bloomer style loaves a week - been doing it for a long time with no problems. However, in the last couple of bakes something has changed - I know not what.
It's the usual ingredients: 500gm flour, 320ml water, 7gm easybake yeast & 40ml oil.
The dough rises normally on the first rise but for some reason it's then really sticky. The finger test is not possible because the dough sticks to your finger (even when wet) and pulls up the surface.
I then knock it back & start forming it but the dough is so sticky that it's next to impossible. I use a little flour on the surface but it doesn't help that much - it sticks badly when moving the dough around. I don't like to use loads of flour at this point - never needed to so unfotunately I'm unable to shape it properly.
Now since I'm gonna bake in a tin it doesn't matter a great deal, but it just looks wrong flattened out at the bottom.

However, it bakes and rises just fine & there's nothing wrong with the resulting bread but should I want to bake without a tin I'd end up with a thick pizza base.

Everything's the same, flour, oil yeast, kneading time. I tested the yeast & it froths away merrily

So I'm puzzled as to what's going on.  Ant ideas?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Unless you want to believe that supernatural forces came into play, then something in fact was not the same.

You have to tell us.

Common things might be starting a new bag of flour that has a higher moisture content, or changing brand / type of flour.

Or it could be plain human error in weighing or measuring.  Was some vessel not tared correctly before weighing an ingredient?  Was the bowl wet, this time, before adding ingredients, whereas previously it was dry?

Did you use a new scoop or measuring device for flour or water or oil?

Think not only of ingredients, but of procedures and devices.  Everything you used or that touched the ingredients.  

What "thing" or ingredient was not the same or came from a new package?

LeonK's picture
LeonK

That's the odd thing, none of that changed. Obvs I can't be 100% sure on the tap water. I took your logical approach too so that leaves me with...unkown alien influences. Most disconserting.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

_nice_ aliens for a change?   Isn't there some alien species who like to clean houses and do dishes?  I want that kind to visit.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when they are not sipping the hooch off old starters.  

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I've racked my tiny brain for something that's changed - no luck. As I say, I've been doing this loaf for a good year now, so much so that it's automatic pilot. Nothing is different I swear. I can only imagine that it's the water. It's happened on the last 2 bakes, none previously. Maybe they did something at the waterworks - it's the only factor I can't control.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

"Maybe they did something at the waterworks - ..."

That is in the realm of possibility -- Changing either the source, or the treatment.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Has the temperature been warmer lately?  Is it getting a bit over proofed and thus stickier and a bit more runny and harder to shape and keep its shape?

benny

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Well, it's hardly any warmer than it has been. I did consider that it might have over-proved on the first occasion so on the second I reduced the proving time - no difference.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Next time I"ll reduce the hydration. Maybe the water's suddenly wetter.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Leon, have you had a chance to try another bag (or even brand) of flour?

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I normally buy 2.5kg bags & I've just finished the last one so I've made 5 loaves with it so far - 3 were as expected, 2 were not. I got a new bag of the same due tomorrow & maybe I'll source a different one as well & then compare.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Did the ambient humidity change?

Did how you store the flour change, such that it might have absorbed some moisture?  

Did you store it in the refrigerator, and perhaps the refrigerator settings or performance changed?

Have you checked all household members, including pets, for alien influence? ?

LeonK's picture
LeonK

The ambient humidity changes all the time with the weather. It'd have to be quite a noticeable change that lasted for 4-5 days in order to affect the last 2 loaves - a change that hasn't previously in the last year. I'm sure we would have noticed it but I have a thermometer/hygrometer I'll now keep in the kitchen. It records highs & lows so we'll see.

All ingredients are kept where always kept - no changes there. I'm veering towards the tap water - it's the only aspect I have no control over. Maybe I'll get some bottled water tomorrow - any recommendations?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't see it mentioned at all.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Yup, forgot the salt. 10gm

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

first symptom.  Glad to help.  (Write it down on the recipe card stuck inside the cupboard door.)

Was salt in the dough?

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Yup, the bread's fine - just tried a slice.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for tomorrow's bake.  And all the ingredients smell and/or taste correctly?   What happens if you just combine water and flour in a small test?

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I won't be baking again till Wednesday. I could try cooled down, boiled water but I didn't before when things were normal.

I'll get some bottled water for the next bake anyhow.

How do you mean: 'combine water and flour in a small test'?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

together say 30g flour with 15 - 20g water (50 - 66% hydration) knead and develop gluten in a medium dough and shape it.  See if it wilts and gets sticky like your big dough. ..and how long it takes.  

Can even carry it further using 100g flour instead. After kneading well and observing it, matching it to the recipe time,  carefully wash out the starch in a pan of water to take a look at the gluten clump left over.  Dry and weigh it. Its one way to double check the gluten content in the flour.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I don't fully understand. '...carefully wash out the starch in a pan of water to take a look at the gluten clump left over'.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

its one simple way to roughly check gluten content.  Maybe too much for now.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I forgot to mention the salt above. I didn't forget to add it.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

As an aside, I never tested yeast before today. Wow! Quite surprised at how much it froths up - I was only expecting a few bubbles.

Matt H's picture
Matt H

This sounds like something I've read about but never encountered called "Rope Spoilage" caused by a rogue bacteria. See for example: https://bakerpedia.com/processes/rope-spoilage/

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

rope raises it ungly head in baked bread several days after baking.  The problem posted seems to be happening after mixing up the dough.  Several other things come to mind like Thiol compounds but more so in sourdoughs.  Do Thiol compounds develop in yeasted doughs?  Algae, enzymes....  We've run into this before with too much activity turning the dough into goop.  I cant seem to pull it up in my brain.  P something..   try site searching: dough turns to goo.  Or dough turns batter

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 give us your recipe method and times.  How long is the bulk rise and at what temperatures? 

 Could the dough be overfermented?  Very familiar with 500g flour with 7g instant yeast basic formula.  Taste the oil to see if it is rancid or getting there or just leave it out for the next loaf.  

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Phew! Here goes:

500 gm organic white bread flour into a bowl. 7 gm easybake yeast on one side of flour, 10gm salt on other side.
Measure 320 ml warm tap water (sometimes a little more) into a jug & add 40 ml extra virgin olive oil.
Slowly pour and mix wet ingredients into dry, stirring until combined.
Pour small amount of oil onto worktop and smear over.
Tip dough mix onto worktop & knead (French slap) for approximately 10 to 12 minutes.
Grease/oil inside of straight-sided, see-through container & dump in dough. Place container lid on top.
Leave for 1 to 2 hours or until approximately doubled in size in kitchen (temperature varies between 22 to 26C).
Lightly flour worktop & tip out dough. Pull out sides of dough and fold into middle in a clockwork fashion.
Flip dough & shape.
Grease inside of tin, tip in dough and cover with elasticated shower cap.
Leave until dough has risen to top of tin.
Spray with tiny amount of water, sieve small amount of flour on top and slash.
Place in pre-heated oven at 220C for 25 minutes. Lower temp to 200C & continue baking for approx 15 minutes.
Voila!

P.S. The oil is fine.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or unusual. Hmmm.  And it turns to goo during the bulk rise.  With warm water it could end the bulk rise in less than an hour.  Perhaps set a timer to check on it early.  Final proof should take less time.  

You can look up the hazzards of using warm tap water yourself.  (water heater bacteria)  Try heating up cold tap water, boiling it first and cool it down.  Any flooding upstream in your area lately?  Im done brainstorming.  

If you find this problem getting worse as room temps rise, try using less yeast, like 4g. I happen to know plenty of folks that use only one or two grams in summer.  :)

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I've got a theory. I'm using too much oil.  Normally I add 40 ml of oil to the water prior to mixing. I then smear more oil on the worktop for kneading & then yet more oil the inside of the first proof container. Furthermore we occasionally use a different manufacturer's oil depending on availability. My attitude has been that one olive oil is much the same as another but maybe that's not the case. With the amount of oil I'm using, just a little too much of one kind of oil could easily make the difference between a sloppy dough & a firmer one.

Next bake I'll use half the current amount & see what happens.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Was the change in brands of oil concurrent with the change in dough behavior?

It seems olive oil is not a commodity like soybean oil, or US corn oil.

Once I became an EVOO snob, I began to notice a huge difference in olive oils, supposedly due to varieties/sub-species, soil differences, weather differences, all revolving around geography, or roughly speaking, country of origin.

Plus, I've read that there is a lot of fraud in the international olive oil trade.  Something like 40% of olive oil (or extra virgin olive oil) is adulterated with other oils, according to US-based Consumer Reports.

 

LeonK's picture
LeonK

That, unfortunately is not clear. We have two opened bottles that we're using & I don't know which I grabbed.
Only thing is to wait till next bake.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Leon,  just for laughs if nothing else, could you please telephone your water treatment facility, and ask if they changed the water source or the water treatment the week you noticed the change in bread?  

This water thing is rare on TFL, but it has happened before. Someone changes residence, their bread comes out different,  and it ends up the different water is the culprit.  (Usually, it's the oven.)

Like A.C. Doyle had Sherlock say, (paraphrased, I don't remember the exact quote) if you eliminate the impossible answers, then whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the answer.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Well, I've contacted my water supplier & they say that nothing has changed recently, they also gave me a detailed breakdown of the water quality. So, it remains a mystery. I'm due to bake again tomorrow & I'll be using bottled water & a new batch of flour. Hopefully there'll be no problem & I'll write this period off as a mysterious quirk. Thanks for all your comments & suggestions.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

All as above except:

Different flour, bottled water.

Temperature 24 C  Humidity 52%

Result: Same problem.

Will report regularly - no comment expected.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Could something have happened to your scale?

Is it a spring scale, balance scale, or electronic scale?   

With spring scales and balance scales, things happen which can cause changes in measurements which are inconsistent over different ranges.   Springs wear out and lose consistency.  Oxidation and dust buildup on internal moving parts can effect mechanical scales.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

It's dual digital and it's fine. Use it every day for a variety of jobs. Being a coffee snob I weigh beans about 5 times a morning.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Just checked the scales. Small side is 0.1gm out, large side is 5gm out. Not bad.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Another bake today

Temp: 23C Humidity: 52%

Reduced hydration a little.
Reduced amount of oil used by approx half.
Increased kneading time to 15 minutes.
Whilst in 1st proof container I 'attempted' the finger poke test at various stages. (Really difficult as dough is so sticky the finger just pulls up the dough when retracted. Managed to work it with really wet finger). 
Tried at 10, 20, 30 & 40 minutes. The 10 minute poke took until 30 minutes to spring back but dough rose fine.
After about 50 minutes dough was doubled in size so 'poured' out onto floured worktop.
Hardly possible to shape as far too sticky. Kept adding flour until I managed to get it into a tin size lump. but concerned about the amount flour required to do so.
Dough flattened out in tin.
After it had risen to top of tin I attempted to slash it but it just makes an awful mess - so gave up.
At present it's baking as usual & I fully expected it to be quite eatable.

So, that's it. I won't be attempting any more free-form loaves as thick pizza shaped loaf is not what I want.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

total water weight/ total flour weight x 100 = %

what about that proofing container?  Old? New? Plastic? Does it gest washed between loaves? What was in it before dough?

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Bake before last = 67
Latest bake = 64

Proofing container: Newish, plastic, washed each time, used for nothing else.

Today's bake. Humidity: 47% Temperature 23 C/
Usual ingredients: 500 gm flour, 7 gm easybake yeast, 10 gm salt, 320 gm water, 30 ml oil.
Rested for 20 minutes after 10 minute knead, knead again for 5 minutes. During first proof did finger poke after 15 minutes - didn't come back up but fairly certain it needed more time (finger poke doesn't work for me hardly ever).

Dough was a little more manageable but satisfactory shaping ultimately unsuccessful.
Placed in covered tin in fridge for an hour, removed 30 minutes before baking to finish last proof. Dough had flattened in tin but rose, little or no surface tension so slashing with lame made a mess. Oven spring acceptable, bread OK.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

So, this finger poke test. Directly after kneading the dough will spring back almost immediately. After 10 minutes I try another poke. This time it doesn't spring back hardly at all, even after waiting for another ten minutes!
Now, I very much doubt that the dough has proved, much less over-proofed  in such a short time so either
A: The poke test, although I see the logic, is pretty much worthless.
B: I'm unable to perform a poke test or
C: There's something slightly odd going on.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

As I understand it, the finger poke test is for after a period of resting and final-proofing.  It is meaningless if you do it immediately after kneading, or only 10 minutes after kneading.  It's also less meaningful if the dough is cold from the refrigerator.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

I see, so is it possible to indicate just when a poke test is worthwhile because I've tried at various times & it tells me nothing or I totally misunderstand the procedure.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

AFAIK, the finger poke test is only useful towards the end of a room-temp final proof.  With dough that had a final proof in the refrigerator, it is not as meaningful.

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Oh well, that's it.
Whatever I do, whatever variations I've made to the ingredients or methods the dough comes out after 1st proof as really sticky. So sticky that it's not possible for me to shape it or produce a skin that holds it together.
However, I'm baking in a tin & so regardless of the fact that it goes into the tin like thick porridge & regardless that I'm unable to slash it without making a horrible mess, it doesn't matter. At the end the bread's kind of OK to eat.

So thank you all for your patience & suggestions. I'm done.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

such as reducing hydration?  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

its all in the handling.  Try using just the tips of your fingers to pick up and fold dough.  Look at videos and watch how the dough is touched. Touch quickly and sneak up onto the dough.  

LeonK's picture
LeonK

Yes, I looked at several videos on handling sticky dough. The most useful to me was one using a couple of scrapers (or a larger one) to manipulate it.  That's the only way I can do it as it's just not possible to pick up the dough with just fingers (even wet ones) without getting into a fine old mess.

With scrapers I can, by using the fact that the dough sticks firmly to the worktop, shove it around & get some semblance of tightness on the dough's surface but it doesn't hold together. I can't even pick it up to place in the bin without getting in a mess. But I've now decided that it doesn't really matter because the bread bakes fine - plenty of oven spring. 

The resulting loaf doesn't look pretty with the messed up slashing and bumpy, uneven surface so I used to describe it as rustic. I recently baked one for a farmer friend (he loves it) and he said: 'I don't know about rustic, I'd describe it as 'agricultural', but then I'm not intending to hang it on the wall to look at. It's just real good to eat".

I still play around with finger poking & have less faith in it each time. Today I poked it the tin about 10 minutes before I thought it would be ready & also just before putting it the oven.  The indentation stayed as it was both times but interestingly a bubble appeared next to it! Also oven-spring was great so goodbye finger poking.

Today I used as little water as possible. Dough was pretty dry & difficult to knead but after 30 minutes in first prove it was sticky again. Must be some thing about my kitchen. It reminds me of when I tried & failed dozens of times to make sourdough starter. It never did work out. I was even given some of a 5 year old starter from a semi-pro baker I know. The kitchen soon killed that off!

As I say, I don't care anymore. I'm perfectly able to make a fine loaf for eating even though it's in the 'agricultural' style.

Thanks for all your help.