Sourdough - what grains should I have starting out?
Hey all,
Recently got into sourdough and with the massive flour shortages these days, I'm seriously considering just purchasing wheat berries and "milling" them in my Blendtec 525 (and eventually upgrading to a real mill later down the road).
Any suggestions on what to start out with? I was thinking about purchasing a couple 25lb bags, one of hard white and one of hard red winter. Should I be considering other grains too? I've never baked with fresh milled flour and have just been using the flour I have been able to obtain thus far (KAF stone ground whole wheat + KAF bread flour and then either bleached/unbleached all purpose). Considering how much I've used just from baking a few times, I can see myself going through flour relatively quickly if I keep it up at this rate.
In any case, just looking for some suggestions/advice/ideas.
Thanks!
I use my Vitamix to mill wheat berries. I hear the Blendtec is pretty powerful too. Is that the "will it blend?" brand?
But... I run my raw berries through a 3 roller cracker/flaker hand-machine first, so the hard shell/bran is broken open, and the blender's blades have an easier time. Hence, a 8 oz (1/2 pound) batch of my "cracked wheat" only takes 30 seconds in the Vitamix to turn to flour, and does not heat up much. Blending the whole berry will take longer and generate a lot more heat. So refrigerate or freeze the berries.
WW is a completely different animal than refined white flour. Whole new ball game.
And, home milled flour is a different breed than store-bought whole wheat.
And, blender-milled flour is a different breed than "stone-milled home-milled" flour.
It's a challenge, but do-able, if you adjust your expectstions.
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If you are in US, Have you checked Indian grocery stores for flour? They were not panic-bought like major American chains.
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If you are in US, near a major city, If you can buy a 50 pound bag of refined white AP/Bread flour, about $24 to $30 plus you drive to get it, let me know, and I'll show you how to find it near you.
Thanks a lot for the info! Yea, I think I saw it on the "Will It Blend" Youtube videos.
Good to know about the roller/cracker - so I'm assuming that's another 'specialized' piece of equipment needed or recommended *prior* to running grains through the blender? Does refrigerating or freezing result in 'softening' the berries somehow? And in that case, do I need to soak them beforehand?
I've heard you can 'make' AP flour by sifting WW flour but it's quite a process (multiple sifts required). I likely wouldn't be doing a 100% WW dough with the grains I'm considering milling. Would still be mixing in Bread and AP flour either way.
Good thought on Indian grocery stores - I think we may have some near us so we'll have to check those out. But I'm thinking we're probably not the first to think of that in our general area (it's pretty diverse here in Southern CA haha).
I'm in Orange County to b exact so would be interested in this 50lb bag you refer to :)
TIA!
Go to this page for a list of some of the over 80 types of General Mills commercial flour:
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62291/experience-w-general-mills-50-lb-flour
The ones that I think are closest to AP and bread flour, based on protein percent, are:
GM King Wheat at 11.1% protein.
GM Imperial at 11.3%. (King Arthur AP flour is 11.7%.)
GM Harvest King at 12%.
GM Full Strength at 12.6%. (King Arthur Bread Flour is 12.5%.)
Also from GM is fancy durum, regular(red) whole wheat, white whole wheat, and coarse ground (red) whole wheat.
Make careful note of the exact 5 digit part #, because General Mills makes every type of flour in both bleached/unbleached, bromated/unbromated configurations. artisan bakers generally want UNbleached and UNbromated. the different bleached/unbleached/bromated/unbromated all have their unique part #.
Follow the link to the GM web site, for the individual product #, and enter your zip code on the "find a distributor" form.
And then start calling the distributors near you, and ask if they have it in stock, and if they do "counter sales". Don't ask baking questions, or which retail flour it is equivalent to, or "how it bakes". That is not their business, and pestering them like that will make them less likely to sell to individuals. Have a first, second, third preference. They might also carry King Arthur. KA AP flour is called "Sir Galahad" in the 50 pound bag. KA Bread Flour is called "Special Patent" in the 50 pound bag. So use the term for 50 pound bags.
they might take credit card over phone, then you go pick up. Or take check/cash/CC at the counter. Generally you have to schedule/pre-arrange the pickup time so they have someone bring it up from the warehouse.
With restaurants closed, they want to get rid of inventory, and (hardly) no one is repackaging 50 pound bags into 5/10 pound bags, so the 50-pounders need to be moved. But... do not ask them baking questions.
you will have to adjust your recipe to fit the commercial flour, but that's the risk you take. It's a gamble/experiment on your part.
SHould cost between $22 and $30 per 50 pound bag, depending how badly they need to get rid of inventory, or whether they charge extra for having to deal with someone who wants only one bag.
If 50 pounds is too much , share or sell to friends. ~5 pounds fit in a 1 gallon zipper freezer bag.
If you get the wrong kind, adjust your recipe, or share/sell to friends.
If you want to donate to charity, they only accept unopened bags, so arrange to have them open the bag, and they scoop out your share AT the charity, in their kitchen. (IE, "I'll bring by this 50 pound bag, if you scoop out and give me back 20 pounds.") Take your own freezer bags. Not asking for a donation receipt makes it easier onthem.
Good luck!
>Good to know about the roller/cracker - so I'm assuming that's another 'specialized' piece of equipment needed or recommended *prior* to running grains through the blender?
That was just my own idea. (I already had it.) Just for less wear-and-tear on my blender, and less-hot flour. The whole berries scratched up the inside of the clear plastic container, too.
It's Norpro/Shule (Chinese copy) of this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Marcato-Mulino-Grain-Mill-Made-In-Italy-Grinds-Grains-Manually/133387478941
>Does refrigerating or freezing result in 'softening' the berries somehow?
No. Just makes them get less hot during blending/milling. excess heat damages flour.
> And in that case, do I need to soak them beforehand?
No. But they will get some moisture through condensation when you take them out of fridge or freezer, depending on your air humidity. That may then affect how much water you add when mixing dough,
> I've heard you can 'make' AP flour by sifting WW flour but it's quite a process (multiple sifts required). I likely wouldn't be doing a 100% WW dough with the grains I'm considering milling. Would still be mixing in Bread and AP flour either way.
Many people do sifting. Ask DayAyo, and barryvabeach.
Using a blender makes coarse flour, so sifting isn't going to work very well. At least it doesn't for me. So don't plan on sifting, at least not successfully, until you get a stone mill.
If you like the 50 pound bag(s) of flour, you may decide not to home mill.
Thanks for the info and the link! I ended up making a call to the closest "distributor" listed that I could find for a number of flours and ended up getting in touch with someone who works there and told me they only sell baked goods lol. I explained how they're listed as a distributor for GM but she sounded confused - she told me the purchase their flour direct from GM but they don't distribute or sell it. Maybe they used to and the GM site is outdated?
I have heard that grinding the berries whole in the grinder causes clouding/pitting of the jar, so it would be good to avoid that.
What's the 'cheapest' reasonable mill that would get the job done for wheat berries then? I'd prefer not to mill by hand if possible haha. I've seen those Kitchenaid mixer attachments so curious about that - I have a Kitchenaid mixer (although it's currently in storage at my in-laws' place) but would definitely consider that attachment if it's viable.
>I have heard that grinding the berries whole in the grinder causes clouding/pitting of the jar, so it would be good to avoid that.
Yes, that's what happened to me. I imagine it dulls the blades quicker too.
How far is the next nearest distributor? There are usually at least 2 around big cities.
Also, check yellow pages, or Mr. Goo-gull, for restaurant supply (foods) and Pizzeria suppliers. One online friend got some KA Sir Galahad (AP flour) from a pizzeria supplier.
All Trumps, 14.2% protein, is a popular pizzeria flour, but it might be hard to find in unbleached/unbromated format. Pizzerias usually want it bromated to make it easier to stretch. Unless it's an "artisan" pizzeria that eschews bromated flour. But such a high protein makes a chewy crumb.
> What's the 'cheapest' reasonable mill that would get the job done for wheat berries then? I'd prefer not to mill by hand if possible haha.
That is a book length dissertation. I am not the person to answer that.
If you're young, get a good quality mill that will last a generation. That is cheapest in the long run.
>I've seen those Kitchenaid mixer attachments so curious about that - I have a Kitchenaid mixer (although it's currently in storage at my in-laws' place) but would definitely consider that attachment if it's viable.
From what I read, flour snobs (and most home millers turn into flour snobs) quickly "graduate" from a KA attachment to a real mill. It works, "sort of."