The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Extensibility

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

Extensibility

Hi all,

I'm been really struggling with shaping my bread recently. 

I've noticed that my dough tends to tear where I ol to stitch it whereas if I try to shape with a cinching method of shaping, it just doesn't hold a shape.(It doesn't hold a shape with stitching either)

My dough seems to have a very low extensibility during shaping which it strange because it was way more extensible post my 3 hour autolyse. (I could definitely stitch the dough post autolyse)

I used the rubaud method today followed by 6 coil folds and a pre-shape. I bulk fermented my dough for 3 1/2 hours. Could my dough be underfermented? I've same similar problems with stitching dough that I've doubled during my bulk. Also how is extensibility reducing through coil folds? 

I used 325gms flour, 14gms vital wheat gluten and 243 gms warm water. 

Please help, I'm so confused and disheartened. I have 3 loaves retarding now and I doubt, I don't think I've shaped any of them correctly. 

Thanks in advance 

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

I can only assume, but here are some things that could help:

- in the beginning, increase mixing time to develop the gluten network and make it tighter (like until it's smooth and shiny)

- lower the hydration. Currently it's at 74% and that can already be quite difficult to handle sometimes. Maybe lower it to 65-68%.

- check your flour's protein content and quality. To be on the safe side, at least 12% protein would be good, 13-14% even better. Though, I'm not sure how the added gluten affects the whole thing, never worked with it.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

I had another strange encounter while mixing my dough. Post autolyse, my dough felt firm, maybe too firm, like I could put on the table and knead it without it sticking to my hands. Once I added the levain and mixed it using the Rubaud method(10 min mixing, 15 rest, 5 min mixing), the dough seemed very loose but it still had a shiny, non-tacky surface. I also noticed that post mixing, the extensibility of the dough had reduced. 

As for the protein content, in my country, we don't get high protein, strong flour which why I add vital wheat gluten

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Reddy, your problem seems strange. Low extensibility means the dough is not relaxed and is slack. It can’t be easily stretched. This is the strange part. You say that it is stretchable after an extended autolyse, but at shaping it doesn’t want to stretch. Do I understand this correctly? Are you saying that your dough starts off extensible and ends up elastic?

I have no idea how a dough would tighten up after longer fermentation. If you rest a dough for as little as 30 minutes it will noticeably relax.

 Also how is extensibility reducing through coil folds?”
Folding  a dough will multiply the layers of gluten. More layers means more structure. More structure builds a tighter dough that will better hold it’s shape. For example - if you took a sheet of stretchable latex and folded it in half, it would be much harder to stretch. It would become more elastic.

I hope we can arrive at a solution for you.

Danny

 

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

You say that it is stretchable after an extended autolyse, but at shaping, it doesn’t want to stretch. Do I understand this correctly? Are you saying that your dough starts off extensible and ends up elastic?

Yes, during shaping, when I tug the dough, I feel some resistance and when I stretch it to stitch, it simply tears at that point. I also seemed to have an impossible building tension and the dough just didn't hold its shape, no matter what I did. 

I felt that with the post autolyse dough, I wouldnt have had these problems, i.e, I could easily stitch the dough, build tension and didn't have as much resistance. 

 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Reddy, I may have your answer. This morning I was preshaping a couple of batards. I noticed that the dough was in fact much less extensible than earlier in the process. Since the dough rested 1 hour between the pre-shape and the shape it had acquired quite a bit of gas. Typically my dough is not full of gas and puffy. The affect of the puffy dough was a much more elastic and much more extensible dough. Trevor Wilson mentions this in his book, Open Crumb Mastery.

In my case, I wrote a note to myself to lightly degas a dough like this in the future.

Could this be your issue?

Danny

Are you shaping batards? If so, take look at this video. The shaping begins at 12:33. This is a favorite method among many bakers. The entire video is excellent.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

I did think of this, as I noticed this during my previous bakes. But what really confuses me is that if you don't bulk it enough, it hard to shape and create a taut, smooth surface as Trevor explained in his book but if I bulk it, then I loose the extensibility needed for shaping and oven spring. I also think this is why my loaves pancake in the oven, the dough is not extensible enough to rise with the carbon from the yeast. 

I know I sound like a broken record going on and on about extensibility but I having a really hard time understanding what's going on

Devika

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Devika, if you can post images and even better, video, that may help us to understand better.

Check this pancake out. kristen tells me that this is normal for her breads. They spring in the oven.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

Here goes the process,

Autolyse for 3 hours

Add the salt-30min rest

I add the levain and start with the rubaud mixing(10min, 15min and 5min)

30min rest and I begin the coil folds. 6 in total with 30min rest time.

Pre-shape, 30 min rest and finally shaping.

Retard in a 6°c refrigerator for 14 hours.

Baked covered for 15min at 250°c, 10min at 230°c and another 10mins at 230°c uncovered.

Remove from the refrigerator, score and immediately bake

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I got in touch with Abhilish, a fellow baker from India and asked him to see if he could help with your flour. He tells me that he gets good grain for cheap and mills it himself.

If your flour is weak, it would be best to shorten your autolyse. 20-30 minutes will be good. The autolyse process will weaken any flour.

Normally the levain is added first and then after a 30 minute rest the salt is added in.

Rubaud is good for gluten development, but Slap and Fold is better, IMO. I do 2 sets of 150 with a half hour rest in the middle.

Lamination may also be a helpful technique to employ.

You may want to reduce your hydration, since your flour is weak.

Your dough is over-fermented. 6C is too warm for a 14 hr retard. If you do want a long retard, plan to under-ferment the doug initially. Believe it or not the difference between 3 or 4C and 6C is considerable. Your dough is probably rising during your retard. At 3 or 4 theè is no noticeable rise.

A lot of info, I know. But i hope some of it helps.

The gist, your dough is over-fermented... Your bread is flat because there is no reserve CO2 to give the huge oven spring that you need to get open crumb and a nice ear. by the time your dough hits the oven the yeast in the levain is spent. BUT, if you like sour, it most probably taste great!

Danny

 

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

I will reduce the autolyse time and try reducing the temperature of my refrigerator and see if that makes a difference. I'm also curious to make a loaf without the VWG.  I'll make a loaf during my next off and let you how that goes.

Thank you from your help, I can't begin to express how grateful I am. 

Devika

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

Reddy,

After you divide your dough, do you let the pieces rest before trying to shape them or do you shape them immediately? I wasn't clear on your method.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

I let the dough rest for 20-30 mins after pre-shaping

OldLoaf's picture
OldLoaf

Please list your entire recipe and process please.  You seem to be missing ingredients (salt, yeast).  And from your procedure it sounds like you are doing pre-shapes before you BF, which seems a little confusing.

also what temp are you doing the BF at???  That will have an effect on how long the BF takes.  3.5 hours may not be nearly long enough.

Also, as an experiment try eliminating the VWG and make a loaf to see how it comes out.

Let us know how things go,,,,

Jeff

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

Although I had a similar concern with the bulk, towards the end of the folds, the dough began holding it's shape, as in it didn't spread out like a batter as it did during the initial folds, so I went with it. 

I've never made a loaf without VWG, I've been curious to see what it would be like without it. I shall experimentation and let you know. 

I added 65gms of levain, 8.2 gms of salt and the room temperature was in-between 22°c and 25°c

OldLoaf's picture
OldLoaf

I ran the numbers for your recipe:

  • 325g Flour
  • 243g Water (77%)
  • 14g VWG 
  • 8.2g Salt  (2.2%)
  • 65g Levain

Assuming your levain is 100% hydration (equal weights water/flour) your total hydration is 77%, and your Salt is 2.2%.  My experience with VWG is limited (and many years ago) so I defer to others more knowledgable on the subject.  Your salt seems just a little high for my tastes.  I typically shoot for 1.5% to 2%.  More salt could also tighten the dough up making it a bit more difficult to work with.  Maybe try a test batch with less salt?

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I am always suspicious when I see somebody using a lot of vital wheat gluten without rationalizing why that was absolutely necessary.  Perhaps you have overdeveloped the dough though that is really hard to do by hand. If it is tearing then it was probably either overdeveloped or very weak to begin with.  Also, you probably shouldn't try to use conventional hydration measures when you have added VWG to the mix as it sucks up a LOT of water.  And if you use it, you need to sift it in with MULTIPLE passes (maybe 10) to get it fully distributed. Whisking it in to begin with seems to help some but it still needs lots of sifting.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doc, I haven’t used VWG in a long time, but your suggestion to sift for thorough distribution is excellent. Never thought or heard of that before. Whisking is all I’ve ever done. Hope I can remember that one, should the need arise. I have used ascorbic Acid on occasion. 

Danny

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Danny - a lot of bread flour comes with ascorbic acid already include along with malted barley and mineral supplements. You don't need very much - 35ppm is typical so a smashed up 50g tablet has to be uniformly distributed through ~140Kg of flour which is a LOT of sifting).  But you can probably measure 50mg with your small scale and put it in with the water rather than as a dry mix component.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

In India, we get very weak flour not suitable at all for bread baking, so VWG has been a saviour. As for the mixing, I through my gluten and flour into dry blender to ensure its thoroughly mixed. As for the hydration, maybe I should pull it down to 70% and check

Devika

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

While you can get stuff stuck in the bottom of a blender under the blade, it sounds like it should be an effective method of mixing though I would put the flour in first and put the VWG on top of it to avoid the "stuck under the blade" phenomenon.  And now I understand your problem with weak flour, the question then becomes how much VWG do you have to add to get to the effective gluten fraction you require.  It is not clear that adding VWG always makes for good dough development even when the protein level is high so there may be an additional source of difficulty and I don't know how to control for it.

I would be tempted to try two sets of experiments x 3 points for each. One would vary the hydration by +3% and -3% around what you are using as a baseline.  The other would adjust the VWG by +10% and -10%.  The hydration experiment might be the easier of the two since you can split a batch of stiff dough and add water.

One other thing you can try is to mix only to the point where you just get a decent window pane and no further. Then don't add S&F beyond that.  This should give you some additional extensibility during shaping which is what it sounds like you need.  Extending bulk ferment might also help in this area but it sounds like you are letting the dough relax adequately before shaping.

I know that this is a large set of DOE runs, but you need enough to separate the variables or you will just be confused by the data.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

I agree, I've experimented with varying gluten percentages and the dough felt nice and strong with 4% gluten. Looking back, i doubt I knew what a good dough was supposed to feel like. I'm going to make 3 loaves, with no VWG, 2%, and 4% to compare the difference in the way the dough feels, handles lamination, rubaud mixing and also the taste and texture. I'm impatiently waiting for my weekly off todo these trials. I also want to retard it at a lower temperature like dan said

Brotokoll's picture
Brotokoll

Hi Devika,

I write this on the request of Dan, who I hold in very high regard. I can safely assume that you're trying to go commercial with your Sourdough breads. As a commercial Sourdough baker, let me say that there's excellent Bread flour available in India (yes you can stitch and do all kinds of neat tricks that you only read about), provided you look hard enough and you're willing to buy your flour in bulk. There's no need to import your flour. I am not at liberty to tell you where we source our flour from, but be rest assured that you'll find it soon enough. With regards to WW, Emmer is excellent. Try making your breads with it. You can't go wrong. There are other very high Gluten strains available in the market, I just choose not to give all this on a platter since it's taken us years of using the wrong grain until we hit paydirt. All the best.

d_reddy's picture
d_reddy

Thank you for taking the time out to help me out. I'm not a commercial sourdough baker and have no intention to do so, sourcing in bulk is out the question. But you have made me realize that I need to take a closer look at the grains and flour I'm using. Seems like this is going to long, enjoyable ride, just how I like it. 

Devika

Ashish's picture
Ashish

Hi Devika, 

I'm a sourdough enthusiast from India and like to call myself sourdough starter ;) since i'm just starting out baking sourdoughs. In the past one year whenever I've tried baking sourdough bread either using whole wheat flour or maida, i've always got disappointing results. The bread always turn out dense and sticky and wet in the middle. Have you found a good flour that works for you? And a recipe for the temperatures we have in India?

Thanks.