The Fresh Loaf

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Baguette/higher protein flour troubleshooting help?

ifaey's picture
ifaey

Baguette/higher protein flour troubleshooting help?

Hey bakers,

My biggest wholesale account is all-organic, so I'm in the process of switching over my flours and test baking like a madwoman. Yesterdays' mix and shape, today's test bake: 2 baguettes (600g) and a 750g boule. The baguettes turned out terrible, and the boule was unimpressive! I have previous successful baguette bakes (with conventional flour) under my belt and also did a production run today of 500g boules with my old (conventional) flour and workhorse formula that turned out beautiful and exactly as expected, so I'm pretty sure it's not the shaping (at least with the boules...?).

The rundown (formula and method is the same for all of the loaves, both new and old flours):

Formula:

18% levain (half-and-half bread flour/whole wheat, 100% hydration)

80% total hydration

27% whole wheat

64% bread flour

2% salt

Method:

AM mix levain, let sit at room temp til airy (about 4-5 hours usually)

2pm mix doughs without salt, autolyse 45 minutes

mix in salt with bassinage

bulk proof 4-5 hours depending on ambient temp, s and fs every 30 minutes for two hours; every hour for 2-3 hours

pre-shape, 20 minute bench rest

shape, into fridge for overnight cold proof at about 38 degrees, 8-12 hours

loaded straight from fridge into preheated oven, steam for 15 minutes then vents open

15-20 minutes more

________________

Old flours: conventional Gold Medal bread flour (12.7% protein), Bob's Red Mill whole wheat flour

New flours: Giusto's Ultimate Performer Organic (13-14.5% protein), Fairhaven fine ground whole grain bread flour

________________

So I'm 100% certain it's not the whole grain flours, as I've been switching those out all over the place and they're not affection performance at all. If I hadn't baked the baguette and the boule at the same time and been disappointed in both I might've thought it was my shaping or proofing of the baguettes alone that was the culprit, but since they're both looking sad I'm at a loss! Is it hydration maybe, what with the higher protein percentage? During proofing and shaping the Giusto's dough handles exactly the same way as the Gold Medal dough.

The pictures show, but in a nutshell: weird crumb pattern; a few half-hearted larger holes and then patches of tight crumb (this is far more pronounced in the baguette, but is definitely present in the boule, too). Pronounced lack of oven spring, again especially in the baguette but also in the boule. Leader picture and first two pictures are baguette; last two pictures are boule.

Any thoughts you guys have would be greatly appreciated, so I can target my troubleshooting bakes!

Thanks in advance....

p.s. I apologize if the pictures show up weird or huge or tiny, I had some trouble getting the image uploader to work for me. Or if they don't show up at all- for some reason they're present in the draft, but not present in the preview.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Hi ifaey,

With a high hydration like 80% consider a double hydration mix so that the gluten has a chance to form with a lower total hydration before the second addition of water.  However, you've moved to a stronger flour.  I think that you are putting too much strength into the dough through all of the S&Fs.  And, of course, depending on your ambient room temp, a 4-5 hour bulk rise seems on the high side to me (but my kitchen is always ~78).  Rather than so many S&Fs, I'm counting a total of 6-7, cut back on that to maybe 3 or 4 max. for that time frame with such a strong flour.  With the final two S&Fs being increasingly more gentle.

As far as pictures go, the process for posting pictures is initially kluge for many.  If they are showing up in the draft but not preview, there may be an issue with how your ID environment was set up, no fault of your own.  You can try to contact our site owner, and compatriot baker, Floyd Mann, who may be able to help.  I see that he is signed on right now, so he is around, I'd guess.

You should also have the ability to edit your existing posts rather than to publish multiple posts or comments.  Look for an "edit" tab at the top of an existing entry, or an "edit" soft link at the bottom of a existing comment.

ifaey's picture
ifaey

for the tips on all fronts!

It never occurred to me that perhaps I'm OVER-developing the gluten, I'll try your suggestion on tomorrow's test bake. I'm in the pacific northwest (where spring only flirts but never commits), so my bakehouse space is chilly-ish and- if anything- the dough seems to be a little under-proofed after five total bulk proof hours, rather than over-. So tomorrow I'll give the four folds total method a try with the Giusto's.

So now what's this about double hydration? I've never heard of the technique, can you give me the lowdown? Right now I do add more water with the salt post-autolyse, but it's a tiny percentage of the total hydration (not sure of the exact % off the top of my head but say 25g water in with the salt vs. 325g water in with the flours for the autolyse).

I messaged Floyd just a bit ago with a cri de couer re the photos. :) I'm not very tech-savvy, I'm afraid, and need quite a bit of hand-holding when things are not absolutely idiot-proof.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Really make baguette development more complicated so maybe consider a window pane test. I know alfanso is not a big fan of this test but in case maybe its a good idea and here's why. First off mechanical kneading a strong flour requires quite a bit of punishing force and what you end up with is dough that is tough, reluctant to stretch (even though it will stretch a long way) but at least in my experience results are best if the dough is delicate you can almost just hold the dough and let gravity form the window. One way that might try getting the gluten develop on top of the double hydration suggested by alfanso is to do a longer autolyse (maybe an hour or two) - the longer the autolyse the less mechanical kneading required. I have done 6 hour autolyse before and that took about one minute of kneading ... So I agree that maybe its over developed :\

ifaey's picture
ifaey

the toughness/reluctance to stretch is what's giving it that tight crumb? It just won't accommodate the gas expansion when it hits the oven?

I also have a bag of some really nice, lower protein bread flour from Fairhaven/Central Milling, I'll test that in the baguettes alongside the Giusto's. I'll still need to sort out this weird crumb thing with the Giusto's, though, as even if the lower-protein FH stuff works well for the baguettes I really want the heavier chew (it's got a lovely bite, even though the loaves aren't pretty) for the boules.

Here, since I can only figure out how to attach one picture at a time here's a picture of the boule made with the same flours as the baguettes, so you can see that the expansion is better on the boule (though not up to my usual standard).

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Rather than provide my amateur verbiage, view this SFBI video which explains and demonstrates the technique.  You are already on the right track with your division of water addition.  With a hand mix and double hydration, the additional water makes for a squishy incorporation.

As far as window pane tests, kendalm is correct.  I hand mix everything, and am a rebel because I exclude the windowpane test, temping the water or dough, temping the finished baked good, etc.  My mother would be so embarrassed ;-) .

BTW I use Gold Medal or Pillsbury bread flour when not using the same two brands' AP flour.  Okay so they aren't organic, but otherwise I've been happy with them.

Something else goofy that I just noticed.  For the first time "ever", I did not receive a "floydm new comment" email on your reply.  I just happened to notice on TFL that you indeed did reply.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I snapped a photo of my window pane test which I will say that I too am rebellious as I do it out of satisfaction but I do indeed believe that tough and strong flour makes getting open crumb much more difficult.  Its different with a Boule or batard because you don't have an abundance of surface tension holding the interior and so the ability for the loaf to expand is made all the more difficult hence your wonderful looking crumb on the bigger loaf.  Take a geezer at this window pane made with weaker t65 - this is an incredibly delicate flour.  A 20 minute autolyse followed by an 8-10 minute slow mix followed by just 2 minutes of fast mixing (with second hydration of remaining 10% water) and presto ! Dough that is remarkably extensible and incredibly delicate).  This combined with the right final proofing time and a shocking amount of heat will produce really great crumb that is like a French crueller doughnut upon consumption ! 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

'Bread flour' is not ideal for baguettes - when I first got the baguette bug I used KA bread flour - this stuff took at least 6 minutes to come together on high mixing (i don't hand knead anymore I'm too lazy) and what I got was forming window panes but not without a lot of stretching.  Note in that photo above gravity is doing the work.  Ill bet that is you autolyse for a couple of hours with your strong flour you will see the dough become less resistant - in fact I wouldn't hesitate trying a several hour autolyse another suggestion is to try adding a miniscule amount of soy flour.  I know that if I add even 1/2 percent the dough weakens considerably - no idea why but believe it - there's some strange chemistry going on with soy 'improver' 

ifaey's picture
ifaey

excellent tips, I'm going to try the lighter flour tomorrow, and I'll try Alfanso's suggestion of fewer s and f's with the Giusto's boule on the same day (I'll throw in a longer autolyse with that one, too, see if that helps). It'll be interesting to see the results, I'll post them good or bad.

I was wondering why baguettes would be different, but that makes sense with the much higher surface area/tension! Here's a cross-section of those awful baguettes, I think it bears out what you're saying. Almost like the loaf STARTED to expand, but then couldn't break through the heavy duty proteins on the outside.

I've been baking professionally for a long time, which means that I've never had time to really delve into experimenting, and the theory and the science behind it. It's been all about production and pars for years with no time left over to play and troubleshoot. Thanks for helping me out!

 

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Is a great indicator of how the crumb performed - as you mention it is fighting the surface tension - what I am looking for is a nice round dome.,,even better indicator is the shape of the bubbles - of they look like grapes (ovals) standing up then that's a reminder that gases were able to rise up. I will post a shot below. Btw I can't comment on seeded loaves and planning to tackle that soon but despite yours having some difficulty rising it looks scrumptious ;)

kendalm's picture
kendalm

kendalm's picture
kendalm

ifaey's picture
ifaey

if I increase the whole grain component of the Giusto's boules it'll take the strength down a notch? Right now it's about 30%.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

If you call central milling they can put you right through to the lab and also send you specs by email !

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I'm a niche performer, and baguettes are it, along with some batards too.  But when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of many things delving into levains or grains, I tend to defer and leave the answering to the more experienced fellow bakers here.  I'm certain that they will pitch in.

ifaey's picture
ifaey

those are some gorgeous baguettes! I've got the test batches bulk proofing now, with the changes you and Alfanso recommended. Hopefully at least one of them will turn out as pretty as those.

Oh man, seeds are where it's at. So good. Just spray the outside with water, roll in the seeds before the shaped proof and voila! Deliciousness. I will say that the overnight shaped proof helps make them stick- they bond to the loaf- but I expect they'd stick okay with a same-day bake, too.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

And now don't really have an excuse - keep us posted on how it goes with the next batch ... 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Any results to share ?

ifaey's picture
ifaey

for the delay! Today's been nuts- the WSDA inspection for the bakehouse is a week from tomorrow and we're running around like crazy people.

So! Good job, guys! I'll post pictures tomorrow- have to transfer them from my phone- but the baguettes were MUCH better with your suggestions. Two hour autolyse, four s and f's total, 2 ea at 30 minutes, then 1 ea at one hour, shaped a la Hamelman, overnight proof. Dramatically increased rise, nice grigne, though I do think I could jack the temp up a bit and I also think that mixing and baking same-day will help. I've got levain cold-proofing now for another test run tomorrow morning. Turns out the flour I thought was lower-protein is actually almost as high as the Giusto's, so tomorrow I'm adding a Sir Galahad batch (made with my original method), to see how that compares. I would like the crust to be crispier, and the crumb to be more open than it is.

Thanks so much for the tips, it would've taken me ages and multiple failed test batches to ever even *think* it might be a case of the flour being TOO strong (if it ever occurred to me at all).

Pictures tomorrow!

ifaey's picture
ifaey

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Boy, what a difference a few tweaks can make.  A key is not to make more than 1 or maybe 2 in any one iteration.  Else, no understanding of which change did what.  A great leap forward for you.

In "honor" of this thread I decided to make my current batch of Vermont SD dough, now bulk rising, a tad different from the prior - the first time I ran this formula earlier this week.  Still using bread flour for the 125% hydration levain, but switched over to AP instead of BF for the final mix.  Also pulling back from 3 to 2 Letter Folds during the bulk rise.  Let's see if I can get a "lighter" baguette this time.

Congratulations on a fine bake.  alan

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Well done ! Btw did you notice that after the longer autolyse the dough consistency changes - I've sat it for 8 hours before mostly to see,what happens and by that point you barely need to knead it. Bit back to the results that's fantastic and yes,to think that a couples of home bakers chiming in with advice saves soooooo much time. Fantastic !

ifaey's picture
ifaey

I did notice, and while it doesn't surprise me based on what I know of baking science it DOES surprise me based on just, you know, bakehouse muscle memory. My arms say "but we HAVE to s and f this" and the dough says "nope, all good".

Today's batch almost out of the oven, and looking even better! Hopefully the crumb will be nice. Oddly enough the one lower-protein (12.7, I believe, the Sir Galahad) one looks terrible, just kind of splooshed out into a flat, ugly mess. The other ones, though, those look okay.

But not as pretty as yours, kenalm. I think I need to work on my high-hydration scoring. How are you scoring yours? When mine are out I'll take some pictures, but they look a little like yours but not as dramatic. How are you getting those beautiful wide-open scores? Are you scoring deep or shallow? I'm going in at a very shallow angle, but it's tough to get very deep due to the high hydration. It just drags and sticks, even with a new blade.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

And I'm speaking to your points on the sir gallahad 'splooshing'. When read a recipe or watch a video chances are the flour you use will differ to at least a small degree and and so, just need to know the ingredients (at least that's my take).

I defer to alan for slashing and of you haven't seen his blogs you're in for a slashing surprise. As for me I have only recently been getting the loaf to behave and open up to an acceptable degree and have had my fair share of frustration with dragging. All I know now is that for some mysterious reason that the cuts seem to work now. If I could identify why I would say that a quick pierce is important. I don't think the entire slash needs to be a fast action just the first stab - you need to snap that blade in and then gently make a shallow angled slice. Do I go deep ? No just about 1/8 to 1/4 inch. From there I also know that if there is any sign of overproofing the oven spring can be expected to suffer and of course, so too do the scores suffer. Alan has a video on YouTube for 'bouabsa' baguettes and you can see he doesn't rush it on cutting. Also take note of his tight surface you can see how well he wraps them up. I still go arrrghhh every time I pull out a batch hoping to see scores like his !

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

9.5% protein flour that 2% garbozo or Fava bean flour in it.  But once you go to SD yu need a dflour that will stand upt to the long process and not break down totally but bread down enough to get the large holes.  This is a flour of about 11% or less protein like some KA AP mixed with some store bought 10%. Dome of  Da Baggs best baguettes are made with store bought Pillsbury AP and the reason is clear = it is just right

Your latest bake looks grand.

Happy baking

alfanso's picture
alfanso

after some advice that we provided to you earlier this week.  I decided to back down on my own 2nd run of the Vermont SD to use AP flour in place of bread flour.  And also to ratchet down my own Letter Folds from 3 to 2.  You can see the results here.  What I believe is important is that you can see that both a plain supermarket AP flour (Pillsbury) and bread flour for the levain (Gold Medal) can produce some fine results without resorting to any special flours or salts (I use Diamond kosher salt).  And that fewer folds during bulk rise will still produce the type of loft and oven spring that I think we all look forward to having.  This is done in my electric home oven with a granite baking deck.

ifaey's picture
ifaey

Alfanso, those are GORGEOUS. Holy moly, look at that spring! Those ears! I wonder why the lower protein flour I used fell a little flat for me, especially compared to two subsequent bakes (after the most recent posted above) with that high protein stuff that I'm determined to get the hang of, because I have 50# of it and can't afford to buy another bag. Next I may try 100% white flour, to see- just out of curiosity- what the difference in loft is. Right now I'm pretty married to my standard 70% white, 30% whole grain of one kind or another. Gives it a nice flavor.

Alfanso and dabrownman, I'm not super-attached to fancy flours, myself- I prefer to keep my products affordable for regular people, i.e. like me (being a baker is rewarding in a million different ways, but I wouldn't say cash is one of them). My biggest year-round wholesale account is absolutely committed to 100% organic flours, though, so I don't have much choice on that front. Time permitting I'm going to keep playing around with different protein percentages though, this thread and all of the excellent feedback and input I've gotten have definitely taught me some new stuff and made me curious about what flours will do what.

So this was yesterday's test bake- we're getting there! Not quite there yet (god those ears of Alfonso's), but closer! I really do covet that grigne- do you think my lack of that really dramatic spring might be due to the 30% whole grain, or just bad scoring technique, both?

 

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

You are getting a really great open crumb now.  Both you and kendalm have that dialed in.  I almost never get something so open, especially these days using lower hydration dough.  The advance in just a few bakes is really startling.  Good shaping, great crumb, good grigne.

I will say that as another admirer of great open crumb, your example here is noteworthy.  OTOH, as a consumer, I might be disappointed in cutting open a baguette and wondering where the bread was, based on the vertical cut.  Somehow there is likely a balance of the "art" of the open crumb for we bakers vs. the reality of customer expectations. Please don't take this as a knock.  But I question whether a customer might feel differently than we do about the crumb, and whether this country's consumer expectations vary from those in, say, France.

"I really do covet that grigne- do you think my lack of that really dramatic spring might be due to the 30% whole grain, or just bad scoring technique, both?"

  • Should not be due to 30% whole grain
  • Scoring technique is not "bad", but just needs practice.
  • So as not to clog up your post I am sending you a PM with some examples of at least 25% whole grain bakes. 

alan

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Dunno why I thought of that (its a hilarious internet sports caster clip). But wow 3rd time a charm. Look at that fantastic.

Btw - is it just me or does a levain help crumb development ? Since I killed my starters about 6 mi,the ago I have been on a fresh yeast kick and just think that developing a decent crumb with bakers yeast is a little more of a challenge. Been thinking it's time to get a new started brewing but have you noticed, aside from obvious flavor characteristics, that a levain based loaf tends to cooperate more when it comes to getting an open crumb ?

ifaey's picture
ifaey

Passed my inspection, with a perfect score!!!! Now I need a vacation, but instead it's off to work. First Farmers Market is this weekend, oy vey.

Thanks for the kind words, guys! (Today everything is exclamation points. All the exclamation points. It was that kind of a day.) Okay, so Alan: you are so right, it's so hard, as a professional, to educate consumers. But educate them we must! If we didn't educate then everything would be Applebee's, or Dave's Killer, or Wonderbread. I'm fortunate in that I live in a place where people are spoiled on the food front, and have a pretty good idea of what's good ("good" as in the result of study and work and practice and skill), so if anything my local customers would probably turn their noses up at a baguette with a too-tight crumb. Having said that, however, there is always the onslaught, the tsunami, of tourists, who I'm sure are lovely people in their hometowns but holy moly are they ever horrible by the time they get here. Now THEY need some educating. And so I will educate them. But I don't take your words as a knock, not at all; it's an astute observation of a very delicate balancing act in the retail world. I'll keep fighting the good fight, holes and all.

Kendalm: YES! Yes yes yes, I absolutely do think that a levain helps the crumb development. I know for sure that my french-style bread (commercial yeast) is lovely in its own way, but never ever does it get that beautiful gelatinization and extensibility that allows for a higher hydration and therefore a more open crumb. Those beautiful webby crumbs. I never ever get those with commercial yeast. I wonder, perhaps it has something to do with the time factor? Because I also get a nicer dough/ easier dough/more beautiful crumb with longer and longer autolyses and bulk proofing times, times long enough that I couldn't get them with anything but wild yeast.

Which brings me to: Kendalm, you'll find this interesting. So I was thinking about my wildly oversubscribed production schedule and what you said about the long autolyses with high protein flours and how I could rig those long autolyses to give me a little breathing room at the bench, and I tried an 8 hour room-temp autolyse (with the full 18% levain) with the high protein stuff and friend, it got me the best ones yet! How far do you think I can push it? I mean, once summer hits and it's warm out, what if I dial down the preferment percentage? What do you guys think?