The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

About temperature, steam and the crust.

_vk's picture
_vk

About temperature, steam and the crust.

Hello people.

I'm wondering about temperature, steam and the crust.

So by now I'm baking very pleasant loafs. and they also look good (most of the time:).

I'm using DO or covered baking trays to deal with steam, as I could not get other method to work as good in my gas oven.

A professional baker I met other day looking at my loafs said I should bake them more, darker, to achieve full potential of taste. So now, I'm on this quest.

But I have had some to though (hard?) crusts before. Perhaps to thick also. And as long as I enjoy a though crust, when it is to much it is, well... to much.

So my goal is to achieve a darker thin crust without it becoming to hard to chew. Which makes me wonder.

(my usual bake is about 50 min at 240c with 20 min covered)

1. How does the temperature plays with the crust. Better a long baking colder? Or a shorter hotter?

2. Hoe does the time covered plays?

3. Does the flour used to shape helps the crust to become thick?

And another point. Does the crust becomes softer as the bread cool and the time passes? Are those dark baked loafs very hard when they come out of the ove, and becomes nice cooling?

Well those are the things that crossed my mind. But as I don't know... please enlighten me in this though crust matter.

 

Thanks

Happy Baking.

V.

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

I am interested also in achieving a thinner crust.  I'll be interested to see the comments.

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

I use about 82% hydration and I've never had a thick crust.  Chewy, yes, but not thick and hard.  I want to say that a wetter dough browns really well, although I don't have incontrovertible proof of such.  In my home oven I bake at 500 covered and I think 450, but maybe 500 uncovered.  I haven't baked at home in a long time.  I bake at 450 in my big gas oven at the bakery (230 C as it switched to C on its own and I can't figure out how to change it back).

_vk's picture
_vk

For how long?

I do 80% with WW(60%) and 70% all white usually.

thanks.

 

v.

 

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

No dutch oven, just a stone with an inverted steel bowl.

_vk's picture
_vk

I see, but I believe one could call DO method any method that bake covered. The results I get from a real DO or a baking sheet covered by foil are practically the same.

thx

v.

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

I have had the same problem in my gas oven, but I find that the dutch oven method solves the vast majority of problems. However, the loaves have a tendency to burn on the bottom if I don't tend well enough to the flame . . . my oven also has the problem of venting WAY too much and all but freezing over at the slightest opening of the oven door. So when I open the oven to take off the cover, all of the heat at the top of the oven escapes, thus causing the burner on the bottom to go into high gear and thus carbonizing the bottom of my poor loaf. But that's neither here nor there.

I usually preheat my dutch oven at 260 C for a good 30-40 minutes before (gently) dumping my loaf in. I leave the oven at 260 C for no more than 5 minutes (since opening the oven TWICE has just about brought it back to room temperature . . . OK I'm exaggerating but still !), before tuning down to about 240. (NOTE: My temperatures can only be considered approximate, as I have about as much confidence in my oven knob as I do in a politician). I leave it there for about 15-20 minutes before dialing down a little bit further, to 220-230 (I just turn the knob until I see that the flame has calmed down a little bit and BASTA). After another 5-10 minutes I take off the cover and crank back up to 260 for about a minute (again, to get some heat up to the frozen upper-regions of the oven) before dialing again back down to 220-230. There, depending on the flour and hydration level, I will bake for another 20-30 minutes, uncovered. Having a crappy gas oven is about the worst possible scenario for home bakers ; I have had much better luck with just about ever other type of oven. 

However, I have found that baking with whole grain flours renders it nearly impossible to have a very thin, shattery crust, though it is maybe achievable, I don't know how but someone on this site probably does. Baking at a lower temperature will send your crust more toward soft and chewy, though certainly somewhat thin.

Steam is also an important factor for the crust because the crust needs to maintain a certain humidity in order to be able to expand and not harden immediately. A dry exterior will "set" more quickly than a wet one. This is why the dutch oven should be very hot when the bread goes into it . . . it needs to generate steam before the crust can begin to set, otherwise the bloom will be compromised and the crust will harden and cook for way too long. Keeping vapor on the surface effectively prevents the loaf from crusting. It's a little bit like cooking vegetables in a pan . . . if I leave them in a dry pan, they are going to caramelize and eventually harden. If I add a little water, they will maintain their natural color (to a certain extent).

That is at least my understanding of it. I'm not sure if I have answered your questions but hopefully you can pull out a useful piece of information. I know how difficult it is to work with a gas oven . . . keep on trying and you will get there !

_vk's picture
_vk

Very useful, I can see my self as you describe yours battle with the oven :) But I got an oven thermometer, so I have a better idea of what is going on.

My oven kind of gets slow if there is much stuff in it, with a stone it takes longer to recover the temperature, is weird.

I didn't made any conclusion yet about all this variables. I still need more batches of test...

thanks.

v.

AlanG's picture
AlanG

I have a convection oven where the convection fan can be turned on and off.  I don't fool around with Dutch Ovens as I'm too old to be lifting them in and out of the oven.  I use a baking steel for all breads whether they are free form or in tins.  For steam, I use the towel method (two dish/tea towels soaked in water and microwaved for four minutes so that they are steamy); they go into a rectangular baking pan and into the oven below the baking steel for about five minutes before the bread is loaded so that the oven gets steamy..  the oven is always pre-heated to 500F regardless of what kind of bread I am baking.  Loaves go into the oven and the temperature is lowered to the starting temperature for that particular bread with NO convection.  At the same time the bread is loaded, I add about 3/4C of microwaved boiling water to the towel pan.  The starting temperature is maintained for 15 minutes at which point the towel pan is removed from the oven and the loaves are baked an additional 15 minutes at 40F below the start temperature WITH convection.  This latter step dries out and firms up the crust.  My general temperatures (start/finish) are:  460/420F for sour dough and free form breads and 450/410 for tin loaves.  this gets the internal temperatures of the bread up to 205F which for me is optimal.

It's important to note that every oven is different and you need to make sure the temperature settings are accurate by using an oven thermometer.  What I outline above works for me< YMMV.  Hope this helps.

_vk's picture
_vk

I don't have convection, and I have a gas oven. Steaming just didn't work for me. I tried all that, and I made a LOT of steam, but it just goes away... The results I get in DO are incomparable.

Perhaps I'll buy a different oven, but for now, I need to work with this one, so DO it is.

Thank you though for your time and all the info. Even experiences with a different setup helps. Is aways good to read such a detailed explanation.

 

thanks

v.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

I now use a steam generator and a steam injection manifold in my Blodgett deck oven, but before I made that leap I used a home oven method demonstrated by Jeffrey Hamelman.

On the upper rack of the oven place a stone and on the lower rack place a deep cast iron skillet. Preheat the oven to 475-500F and start some water boiling on the stove. After everything is heated sufficiently place your bread on the stone and CAREFULLY dump a cup of boiling water into the skillet. Close the door and keep it closed for at least the duration of your steaming period.

My home oven is electric/convection and it has a vertical vent system that is designed to vent humidity out of the oven. Even with that handicap I was able to generate enough reliable steam to produce some impressive oven spring using the method noted above.

My deck oven is gas-fired and I am pushing a gentle 3-5 psi of steam into the baking chamber. One caution with a gas oven - the sudden introduction of too much steam can rob the flame of oxygen and extinguish the fire. I have done that while experimenting with the steam system until I found the ideal settings. Most present-day ovens will shut off the gas when a flame is not present but you should be aware that the flame may go out.

_vk's picture
_vk

I don't know, perhaps my oven is leaking more steam than it should. The rubber that is used to isolate the door are old... I don't know... I even have this flame extinguish problem, so you see I was making a lot of steam,  but, judging by the resulting loaf, it was not enough...

Thanks.

v.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

Steam is just one component in this process. If I dramatically overproof my dough I can pump all the steam in the world and oven spring won't happen. It is a combination of time, temperature, gas bubbles and steam so I wouldn't focus on steam alone.

I have seen comments by professional bakers that use a plant sprayer instead of steam injection. They put the bread in the oven, squirt in about 5 seconds of atomized water, then close the door. That's it! They find it sufficient and crank-out bread that meets their standards.