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Starting Belgium Waffles at my Dessert shop. Need Serious Help

ericy77's picture
ericy77

Starting Belgium Waffles at my Dessert shop. Need Serious Help

Newbie to this forum, Newbie to baking.

My name is Eric and i currently own a operation of Frozen yogurt business. Winter is definitely not on our side and we needed something to carry us through the cold season. As a food enthusiast, i decided to start crepes and Belgian waffles. I have tried Belgian Waffles during my travels and just fell in love with the complexity and simplicity that a simple piece of waffle could hold. When i finally decided to start the menu at my store, it was a challenge because not only was i faced with learning to make this certain dish, i was also faced with the challenge of learning the basics of yeast dough and baking.

Enough with the story of myself... but long story short, i spent months of learning the basics before jumping into selling non-perfect Belgian Waffles. I have studied about using yeast, the fermentation process, dough kneading, Proofing... you name it.

So after a thorough research and hundreds of trials, i came up with certain recipe to secure my own Belgian Waffle menu. (Very sorry but I cannot post the exact recipe due to confidentiality)

 

Here is my plan on how to make and prepare the Waffles and Why i need help!!!

1) Mix the ingredients including Bread flour, Sugar, Instant Yeast, Eggs, Milk, and Butter.

2) Rest the dough for few mins and place in bowl for first rise.

3) After 1.5-2 hours, make sure it has risen enough and push down the gas. Knead the dough once again

4) Shape into serving sized balls and cover it tightly with plastic wrap (on a tray).

5) Place in the refrigerator overnight.

6) In the morning, remove the waffles and put in the proofer for 1 hour. (110F and 50% humidity)

7) Cook using waffle maker

 

 

This being my first time using yeast dough, i need some serious help... First of all, i dont know what to do in terms of storing the waffle dough that has not been used.

1)For example after i make the dough and shape into balls, i am not going to cook everything at once. I know that these balls will keep rising either in room temp, or refrigerator. How should i store them during my operation so i can cook them to order?

 

2)Fermenting/slow SECOND rise in the refrigerator, according to my research, is supposed to give a better flavor. However, my dough keeps drying up so bad after i take them out after the refrigeratin overnight. I though i was wrapping it well... so i tried putting the dough in a sealed container (sprinkled with cooking oil). This did not work and my dough is so dry inside, when it was really nice and moist the night before.

 

I know this was a long read but if you guys could do anything to help this amateur right here, i would higly appreciate it!!! 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Not something I have done myself. However, using sourdough starter in the waffles (I have done so with pancakes) will make them delicious. Something to think about.

Best of luck.

P.s. I may be mistaken but aren't waffles made like a thick pancake batter rather then a dough and risen with baking powder/soda.

A sample of a waffle/pancake sourdough recipe http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sourdough-waffles-or-pancakes-recipe 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

What you are describing are Liege waffles. This uses a sweet brioche type of dough. They are different than what has been deemed "Belgian Waffles" in the U.S. which is more like that of the waffles of Brussels (which is a batter). Without the recipe it is difficult to help, but one of the keys is the sugar. In Belgium I think they use a special pearl sugar, but the idea is to have chunks of sugar. As such, I think that the pearl sugar is kneaded in later (like the day of making the waffles).

The batter type of waffles are much easier and using an overnight yeasted slurry (or sponge) will add good flavor. These are more airy and it doesn't seem like the type of waffles you are going for. They are much easier though.

Edit: Forgot to answer the actual questions... Have you tried cooking them directly from the refrigerator? That way you can keep the dough in the refrigerator until you need it that day. Like I said, maybe you can knead in the chunks of sugar and then put them in the waffle iron. Also, for the dryness, this might be something in the recipe. But are they still dry if you give them a quick knead?

Another edit: I just read that you said the dough is dry inside, not out. Most likely it is because the butter has set. Think about how a cookie or pie dough will harden in the refrigerator. Once left out, it will soften. So my idea of bringing them directly to the iron might not work, but is still worth a try. You can still store them in the refrigerator but will most likely have to have some that have had a bench rest and are ready to go. If there was a way to soften these faster that would be good. Your hand might be warm enough when kneading in the sugar pearls, but maybe not. The good thing is that since this is being put in an iron you don't have to worry about knocking the air bubbles out.

ericy77's picture
ericy77

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply!

I have tried doing the straight out of the refrigerator! its just that i am not figuring out a way to really keep it moist while in the fridge... Im sure it will become softer when i knead but isnt the dough no good once it dries in the first place??

and say that i do knead it after taking them out... dont i need to wait for it to rise again? because i dont want to cook a dough without any air in it? 

 

GAHHH!! i am so not ready! haha

do you have a liege waffle operation currently?

Reynard's picture
Reynard

batter should be of a stiff dropping consistency. It is much too thick if you're rolling it into balls... That's into Gallettes / Lukken territory, which are a completely different thing altogether. (This is the Belgian half of me speaking btw...)

Gaufres de Liege are a PITA to make, because of the sugar. I'd advise against it unless you have a waffle iron which has removable cooking plates that can be washed. The mess the melting sugar makes in your iron is unreal, and it's why, as good as they are, I rarely make them.

Your best bet for a business are either Gaufres de Bruxelles or Gaufres de Namuur - you will see both types being sold in tea rooms and street corners in Belgium. You can make waffles raised with baking powder, but they go limp very quickly.

The Gaufres de Bruxelles are relatively unsweetened, but served with Chantilly cream and icing sugar or even with bitter chocolate sauce. Otherwise, I would recommend Gaufres de Namuur which are denser in texture and sweeter, but are equally good cold as hot, and with toppings as without. They will keep several days and can be refreshed in the toaster if you want them hot.

Here is my recipe for Gaufres de Namuur:

500g plain flour, sifted

350g granulated sugar

vanilla extract to taste

250g very soft butter

4 eggs, separated

150ml warm milk

1tsp (7g) dried yeast.

Activate the yeast in the milk. Sift the flour into a bowl and make a well in the centre. Add the milk & yeast mixture, the egg yolks, butter, sugar and vanilla. Beat well until smooth (I use a mini stand mixer for this). Whisk the egg whites into stiff peaks and fold into your batter. Leave to rise for an hour or until doubled in volume before baking.

And a tip to keep your waffles crisp for longer. Don't stack them while hot or they'll go soggy. Either serve straight away or cool in a single layer on wire racks.

HTH :-) And smakelijk... 

ericy77's picture
ericy77

Thank you ALL for your helpful inputs. Really appreciate that.

Yes these are Liege Waffles that i am making! thanks for the clarification

So i am sure if i let it proof after refrigerating, it may add in moisture. However, if i did correct research, once the dough dries out (especially in the inside of the dough) it is no good to use. 

My consistency of the dough if moist and elastic... kinda perfect at this point. When i say roll it into balls, i should've just said shaping it into serving size. Its not hard enough for me to actually "roll" it haha. 

I think my main concern is understanding the fine line between moist (usable) and dry dough after refrigerating overnight. 

I am sure it is impossible to keep 100% of moisture when i refrigerate it overnight but in the morning, the dough kinda has a hardness of a soft clay. When i rip apart the dough, the inside is rather white and looks like an inside of an already baked bread... sort of.

 

I tried to add more water to the dough in the beginning because i read something about having 50% or more hydration. This only made it worse because my dough became so sticky that i could not work with it.

 

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Is typically ladled or spooned out, not worked by hand. It should be soft and gloopy. If it's dry, you'll end up with hard, bready bricks. And you don't use water - again, that'll give you a hard result. It's the fat content that gives you the soft, melting texture in the finished waffle.

Anyways, here is the recipe I use for Gaufres de Liege. This is a genuine recipe note, based on a commercial one:

500g plain flour (NOT bread flour)

300g very soft butter

300g pearl sugar *or* 150g pearl sugar and 150g granulated sugar (I prefer the latter combo)

150ml warm milk

3 eggs, separated

25g dried yeast (but I use less)

1 teaspoon ground cinnamon

1/4 teaspoon salt

Method is pretty well much the same as the one I gave you for Gaufres de Namuur. Makes about 20 waffles. No need to faff leaving overnight in the fridge, and only wants a single rise at room temperature and then you use it straight away. I think you're trying to over-complicate things ;-)

My tip here: find a spoon or ladle that gives you the right quantity for the serving size and hang on to it. And a silicone spatula doesn't go amiss either.

ericy77's picture
ericy77

You are just awesome!!!! i was actually JUST thinking about switching to regular flour because i was thinking maybe the flour was obsorbing wayyyy too much water in the fridge. Will it still rise well with the All Puropose flour instead of bread flour??

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Your dough will have a softer texture with AP or plain flour, which will make it easier to ladle into the iron when you bake them. In the baked waffle, you're almost looking for a pound cake kind of feel - soft, buttery, melt-in-the-mouth :-)

We don't have AP flour here in the UK, only plain flour (which is used for cakes) and bread flour which is used for, well, bread LOL. I think your AP flour sits somewhere in between the two.

Actually, I prefer a plain waffle coated in chocolate on one side to Gaufres de Liege ;-)

HTH :-)

dobie's picture
dobie

Reynard

Hmmm, coated in chocolate on one side..., please fill in the details.

Also, I think you're right (from what I understand) that US All Purpose flour is usually right in between the UK Plain and Bread flours (protein percentage-wise). A blend of the two might be equivelant to the US All Purpose but that's just a guess.

I concur with most if not all of what you've said but I don't think Eric is pouring batter at this point (altho I think he might well reconsider that). Even just a plain, simple batter can be mixed up and used very quickly. Build a new batch as needed. Little waste. Few timing issues.

But again, I've never had the waffles described, so I would not presume that to be a viable alternative.

Regardless, good posts.

dobie

ps - please don't forget about the chocolate thing

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Take a plain waffle recipe like Gaufres de Namuur (see above). Make them palm-sized, and when they're cold, either brush or dip one side in melted dessert chocolate and leave to set.

Dessert chocolate is a dark, slightly bitter chocolate of at least 50% cocoa solids, used specifically for cooking. If you can get it, look for Cote d'Or and Jacques / Callebaut brands. If not, a good plain (dark) eating chocolate will do.

HTH Dobie :-)

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Do you temper the chocolate?  If yes it may not be that easy for everyone.

Gerhard

Reynard's picture
Reynard

I just melt it and brush it on. I suspect the folks who do this commercially or on a large scale do temper the chocolate, but as I only make small batches for my own consumption, it's not worth the faff...

dobie's picture
dobie

Reynard

Dusted off my old cast iron waffle iron and dug thru my chocolate and found a nice chunk of Callebaut Bittersweet that needs a home.

Normally I just chunk it up a bit and into a bowl with a little sugar and enough milk to make islands, then microwave a minute or so and wisk it up smooth. I used to add butter, a pinch of salt and vanilla but seldom do anymore. Well, maybe a splash of vanilla. Sounds about like what you describe.

I'm going to try your Gaufres de Namuur recipe as written.

Thanks

dobie

ps - what is 'Pearl' sugar?

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Sounds like a low fat ganache.  Low fat and ganache is probably an oxymoron. ;)

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

I guess, but you probably know better than I.

A few years ago I explored chocolate a bit trying to make a simple chocolate syrup for my homemade ice cream in the summertime.

Simple syrup base with various ingredients. Also played with properly tempering chocolate candies and ganache (all from recipes).

In drunken desperation one night, I did the above and it was so easy (about 2 minutes start to finish) and I liked it so much, it's pretty much all I do anymore.

I don't know if it would have a proper gloss, but I'm not looking for that. Just slightly pourable chocolate that is not very sweet at all.

dobie

Reynard's picture
Reynard

For a killer dark chocolate sauce if you want it...

It's actually the sauce for profiteroles, really easy to make. Hot, it's great over ice cream, waffles and pancakes as well, and cold, it makes a good, if somewhat gooey substitute for chocolate spread ;-)

dobie's picture
dobie

Reynard

Yes please, fire away.

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

This is a recipe we give to customers for a chocolate sauce, people seem to like it a lot.  In my opinion the vanilla isn't necessary.

2 tbsp light corn syrup

½ cup half & half cream

9 oz dark chocolate

1 tsp vanilla 

Heat corn syrup and half & half over direct high heat. Lower heat and stir in chocolate. Heat and stir constantly until chocolate is melted. Stir in vanilla extract. Yields about 1 ½ cups. Store in fridge up to 5 days.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

Thank you for that recipe.

You're using corn syrup while I'm using regular sugar. You're using H&Half and I'm using regular milk. I would use H&Half too, but I seldom have any except around the holidays.

I'm doing mine by eye so I don't have any accurate measures but other than the fact that I probably go a little heavier on the vanilla (tho I agree, it's not necessary), I'll bet the proportions of yours and mine are just about the same.

I guess sometimes drunken desperation can lead to good things.

dobie

ps - customers?

gerhard's picture
gerhard

My wife and I have a small chocolate business, we make caramels, fondant creams, almond crunch (Europeans may know it as krokant) and much more.  I think I recall you saying you are on Long Island there is a place very similar to what we do called Bon Bons in Huntington.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

Very interesting. This must be a pretty busy time of year for you guys.

Huntington is right down the road about 20 miles. Next time I'm there, I'll check out Bon Bons. There are a few others on the Island as well, one is called Penny Lane (I think) and I know where there is one, very local to me, but no clue as to their name.

Must be an interesting business.

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

It is busy and the girl from the packing room just gave me a list of what they need to continue packing so I think I will be working a few evenings plus this weekend.  I still enjoy this business after 25 years and the biggest advantage this has over baking is that you are able to build an inventory and then take time off without worrying if the baker is going to be in on Saturday night or do I need to cover.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

Make hay while the sun shines. Good to be busy, particularly with what you enjoy doing.

Advantages; yes, and you don't have to worry if the chocolate proofs in time.

dobie

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Bitter Chocolate Sauce

175g plain chocolate broken into pieces

130ml water

20 ml rum / whisky / brandy / alternative liqueur to taste

50g granulated sugar

Place all the ingredients into a saucepan and heat gently until the chocolate has melted. Bring to the boil and simmer for 10 mins.

That's all there is to it :-) Though of course, the better your dark chocolate, the better your sauce will be ;-) The aforementioned dessert chocolate is just the ticket for this...

dobie's picture
dobie

Reynard

The recipe sounds great.

At quick glance the liquid to chocolate ratio seems pretty close to Gerhard's and to mine.

The next time I make mine, I will add a shot of the 'liqueur de jour' at the end (wouldn't want any undue spritual evaporation) rather than vanilla, and hope the milk component doesn't curdle. I don't think it will as even the vanilla has a fair amount of alcohol in it and doesn't curdle.

As you say, the better the chocolate, the better the sauce. I think I will do a (measured, this time) side by side comparison with the Callebaut and some Trader Joe's Belgium Dark (72%, made near Antwerp) chocolate that I get for half the price. I'm sure they will both be fine. We'll see how the Belgium stacks up.

At some point I will try your recipe as written.

Thanks for that.

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Pearl sugar is like small chunks of sugar rather than crystals, mostly used for decorating cookies and stuff.  Kids like it because it is almost like hard candy though softer to eat.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Thanks Gerhard

I'm guessing it won't ruin the product by just using regular sugar.

dobie

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Or parelsuijker is commonly used in Belgian / Dutch baked goods such as waffles and craquelin (a sweet brioche-like breakfast bread).

Pearl sugar are small lumps of white sugar about the size of small peas - or pearls. If you haven't got any, then put the equivalent weight of sugar cubes in a plastic bag, put it on a wooden board and bash it with a rolling pin ;-)

Good luck with the Gaufres de Namuur :-) Let me know how you get on. I tend to make half a batch unless I'm feeding friends. Otherwise my wardrobe suffers from awful damp ;-)

dobie's picture
dobie

Reynard

I promised to try these and get back to you, so I am.

All in all, the recipe was quite successfull. Very nice waffles.

I made a half batch as well. They baked nice and crisp and tender inside.

They were a little sweet to my taste (but I'm an old fart), however the children (nieces & nephews) loved them, even without the Pearl sugar.

I will be trying a less sweet version next time (unless the kids are around).

Thanks very much,

dobie

Reynard's picture
Reynard

For not getting back to you, Dobie, things have been crazy-busy here.

Glad the waffles worked for you. You can always adjust the sugar content to taste.

Am going to be making some on Friday - they're traditional for New Year... (with whipped cream containing a slug of brandy) ;-)

dobie's picture
dobie

Reynard,

No worries.

Ohhh, adjust sugar with brandy..., uhmm, good idea. I know you meant in the whipped cream, but maybe a touch in the batter might not be so bad. We'll see.

I will try to maintain the New Year tradition.

dobie

ericy77's picture
ericy77

Makes perfect sense!!

ok so say that i serve the ones after the first rise. Do you have any recommendation on how to keep them throughout the day (we open from 10 am til 10pm). I know i cant leave them out because they will keep rising.. im afraid if i put them in the fridge they will dry out... and they will also rise in the fridge as well... GAHH!! i wish i got to work at a belgium waffle place in europe lol

Reynard's picture
Reynard

Gaufres de Liege are meant to be eaten cold, so just bake the whole batch in one go, cool in a single layer on a wire rack, and when cold, store in an airtight tupperware. They'll actually keep well for a couple of days like that.

If you're open for 12 hours, it might be easier to make small batches if you want to dish them up fresh - say a 2-egg batch or something of that ilk...

dobie's picture
dobie

Eric

I don't think flour can absorb way too much water, rather, there might not be enough water for it to absorb as much as it will.

In this regard Bread and All Purpose flour act reasonably the same.

I would be thinking AP flour (more tender) for waffles (but I've never tasted or made the type that you are doing, so I don't know).

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Eric

I think what might be happening is that the flour is continuing to hydrate over night, thus being of a 'dry' interior in the morning.

Maybe if you made tomorrow's dough the morning before and let it proof in the fridge most of the day, you could boost the liquid in the recipe and yet when you rolled out the dough (8-12 hrs later), it would be manageable.

Just a guess. Good luck.

dobie

Mr. Waffles's picture
Mr. Waffles

Not sure if you still need help with this, but here are a few insights from someone who's spent years working with these waffles...

1. Don't use bread flour. It's not authentic. A blend of pastry flour and AP flour is what you want.

2. You cannot cook these waffles straight out of the fridge. They won't cook properly at all.

3. Hydration and fat content are pivotal for these. I have never had mine go dry, so I wonder if your dough doesn't have appropriate quantities of moisture and fat. My guess is your fat content is the most likely issue.

4. Not sure if you are bringing out all the waffles at once for the final proof, but I would not. Take out enough dough to fill orders for your first round of customers, and then try to time a succession of batches so that you always have some dough on hand ... yet none that has been sitting out for hours and hours. Also, proofing at 110 if a bit aggressive, IMO. The lower the temp and the long you can stretch the proof, the better the waffles should behave.

Mr. Waffles

LJay's picture
LJay

Well it’s been a few years since your waffle dough "dilemma"- what’s the update on your waffles?

i can’t imagine all the advice you wanted without telling these generous helpers your recipe which isn’t so much a secret to begin with. Why didn’t you go back to Belgium and do what many bread/dough lover experts do and WATCH AND LEARN??? Obviously you didn’t experiment with your dough and haven’t put in enough time for trial and error. If you’re trying to make Liege waffles you didn’t even know about the pearl sugar!!! Sounds to me like you just want to ($$) compete with places like Shaky Alibi in LA, CA. OR you tasted a waffle, loved it and thought you can make a bundle ($$$) on these little things and just jumped right in. Maybe in your spare time you could watch some YouTube videos on dough making and learn from there. It’s hilarious that you think you can throw ingredients in a bowl and VIOLA! it’s a success. I found your question and dough problems not only idiotic but Pitiful to say the least. Not giving your update to everyone who tried to help you with free advice is rude and thoughtless.